In today's Washington Post there is an article on the removal of the Confederate Flag from the W&L Chapel. I guess this PC cancer will eventually see the removal of CSA statues from Monument Ave.
Another Virginia college/university succumbs to PC Cancer
- Thread starter FrontRoyalSpider
- Start date
I was married in Lee Chapel and have a deep affection for W&L, but do not have a problem with this decision. Historical flags were in the chapel for decades, but were owned by the Civil War Museum, which took them back 10 or 20 years ago because they weren't being preserved properly. The current ones are reproductions that aren't presented within any historical context.
The removal of these reproductions also involves a deal with the Civil War Museum to receive historical flags on loan on a rotating basis, displaying them properly in the museum under Lee Chapel.
The removal of these reproductions also involves a deal with the Civil War Museum to receive historical flags on loan on a rotating basis, displaying them properly in the museum under Lee Chapel.
I went to law school at W&L and attended a number of events in Lee Chapel during my time there. It's a very special place for anyone interested in history, and I agree that the decision to remove the flags doesn't really affect that. As much as people may want to complain about this decision, I don't know what alternative they would have liked. Should the university have just ignored the issue and come across as insensitive and out of touch? This topic had already gotten a fair amount of press, and to ignore it would have ended up being a PR nightmare. As it is, they didn't really concede too much (the flags were not particularly visible from the main part of the chapel and, as has been pointed out, weren't actually historic). I felt that President Ruscio's statement did a good job of capturing the complexity of the school's history and of Lee himself. Extremist viewpoints on both sides of this debate can't seem to accept that complexity.
Here is Ken's message to the W&L community...there is much bigger discussion going on than just the flags in Lee Chapel, and it looks to be a healthy and well-considered one so far.
http://www.wlu.edu/presidents-office/messages-to-the-community/president-ruscios-july-8-2014-message
http://www.wlu.edu/presidents-office/messages-to-the-community/president-ruscios-july-8-2014-message
enjoyed that history lesson and have not heard what caused this. can someone hang an article here so we can see how all this took place.
Per previous articles- about 3 black kids who said they knew about the Lee in Washington and Lee admitted that they knew all about the history when they applied and were accepted, but now left out because they are black and because of Lee's past. This PC crap will be the end of us all. I guarantee you we are on the verge of W&L changing it's name not only because of Lee, but because of that bastard, slaveholder George Washington. When are these people going to realize that we can't judge people from 200 years ago based on today's mores? It's pathetic and for the weak minded. Robert E. Lee was one of the great Americans ever and if you are too blind to see that, you need a reality check. The historic replica flags in Lee Chapel had hung there before the current KKK idiot movement began in the 1950's and had nothing to do with slavery. Just sad...
A lot of people on this board seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between true "PC" speech (i.e., that fat guy is actually just metabolistically-challenged) and the idea of being inclusive because it's the right thing to do. I personally am not offended by a Confederate flag, but I understand why some people are, and in the interest of those people, what is wrong with removing it?
This is a university that serves a wide variety of people -- it's not an individual making an individual decision. If you want to fly a Confederate flag at your house or on your car, be my guest. No one's stopping you. If you want to wear a t-shirt that says "F--- YOU" on it in huge letters, you're free to do that too -- but it's not the smartest idea, and people might judge you because of it.
Would this situation have been different if W&L had been flying a Nazi flag, or would you cry "PC" then too if someone tried to get them to take it down? I don't get this insensitivity sometimes.
This post was edited on 7/10 6:57 PM by Eight Legger
This is a university that serves a wide variety of people -- it's not an individual making an individual decision. If you want to fly a Confederate flag at your house or on your car, be my guest. No one's stopping you. If you want to wear a t-shirt that says "F--- YOU" on it in huge letters, you're free to do that too -- but it's not the smartest idea, and people might judge you because of it.
Would this situation have been different if W&L had been flying a Nazi flag, or would you cry "PC" then too if someone tried to get them to take it down? I don't get this insensitivity sometimes.
This post was edited on 7/10 6:57 PM by Eight Legger
Re: Not PC cancer it's a correction for what should never have been
According to the RTD the flags were first placed there in the 1930s, not a good time to be a black American in the South. I believe they should never have been put there, after all it is a Chapel. It think former President Lee would be in agreement. The War of Northern Aggression was over and he did all in his power to reconcile the two opponents. So the W&L President really missed the boat on this one. Yes he devoted his last paragraph to Lee but he missed the simplicity of the honesty of the self-effacing President of Washington College who when a student offered him a number of excuses for whatever, responded "isn't one enough?"
Gracious SF congratulations for a fine venue for your nuptials. Movin' on up from being an upstart New Yorker. Now you do know about the three Rs that are taught in NC and I am hoping you adhere to and act on the last.
By the way, has our President Ayers weighed in on this topic?
According to the RTD the flags were first placed there in the 1930s, not a good time to be a black American in the South. I believe they should never have been put there, after all it is a Chapel. It think former President Lee would be in agreement. The War of Northern Aggression was over and he did all in his power to reconcile the two opponents. So the W&L President really missed the boat on this one. Yes he devoted his last paragraph to Lee but he missed the simplicity of the honesty of the self-effacing President of Washington College who when a student offered him a number of excuses for whatever, responded "isn't one enough?"
Gracious SF congratulations for a fine venue for your nuptials. Movin' on up from being an upstart New Yorker. Now you do know about the three Rs that are taught in NC and I am hoping you adhere to and act on the last.
By the way, has our President Ayers weighed in on this topic?
This PC Cancer has been around a long time in colleges a long time
I cite a few examples:
Stanford dropped Indians for Cardinal (the color, not the bird)
Marquette dumped Warriors...I do not recall the replacement name.
Syracuse did away with Orangemen and replaced it with Orange
Ole Miss did away with the Confederate colonel and replaced him with a bear, I think.
St. Johns did away with Redmen and now are the Red Storm.
Wm&Mary was forced by the NCAA to drop the two feathers from its logo.
Our beloved spider was stripped of his Confederate uniform.
These are just a few I can think of. I am sure there are others!
.
I cite a few examples:
Stanford dropped Indians for Cardinal (the color, not the bird)
Marquette dumped Warriors...I do not recall the replacement name.
Syracuse did away with Orangemen and replaced it with Orange
Ole Miss did away with the Confederate colonel and replaced him with a bear, I think.
St. Johns did away with Redmen and now are the Red Storm.
Wm&Mary was forced by the NCAA to drop the two feathers from its logo.
Our beloved spider was stripped of his Confederate uniform.
These are just a few I can think of. I am sure there are others!
.
Eight, the only thing i can say on your thoughts is if there was a hitler university and i matriculated there, doubt i would ask to have the flag taken down. can see where these students might be upset even though they knew where they were going but there may now be students who feel the same way because of the actions taken, who wins in these deals. just seems that this kind of uproar, action is a cottage industry now. not like they just placed these items there. we should now expect to have the remains of lee and his wife removed from the chapel as well.
Heaven forbid the PC Police would have The Lee remains removed from their crypt in the chapel. Besides, if they were removed, where would they be placed? I dread to think what the PCers and Haters of Southern Heritage would do with them.
I would not be surprised if by say 2050, the CSA monuments will be removed from Monument Ave and the White House of the Confederacy and museum will be torn down.
This post was edited on 7/12 5:16 PM by FrontRoyalSpider
This post was edited on 7/12 5:18 PM by FrontRoyalSpider
I would not be surprised if by say 2050, the CSA monuments will be removed from Monument Ave and the White House of the Confederacy and museum will be torn down.
This post was edited on 7/12 5:16 PM by FrontRoyalSpider
This post was edited on 7/12 5:18 PM by FrontRoyalSpider
I wonder if there are a lot of people in Dachau who cling this tightly to their Aryan-nation "heritage" and try to fly the swastika from every lamp post?
it appears that all sides cling to things which happened decades centuries ago. the point is you don't go to someone else's house and tell them you don't like something, you just don't go there. am not going to an islamic university and tell them am offended by the koran or prayer rugs being there, i just won't attend their university or if i do, will understand their thoughts on the matter. just like a university is open to all viewpoints, the students there should be as well, both sides not just one side. if you know a school is very liberal or very conservative or catholic or historically black or named for a confederate general who is interred there, you decide whether it is the place for you and if so, you live with their culture, history. again, understand they might be offended but either don't go there or suck it up.
the point is the right thing is different to all kinds of people. am not going to matriculate at byu and then say, hey we need cokes and tobacco and booze here, just do not. there is a confederate ilk at w&l for a reason, this did not just happen. you go somewhere else or you live with it. how many times do these guys enter the chapel, is it really that bad? if it is, you transfer, or you select an institution more fitting to your comfort level from the start.
The school obviously felt that it was the right thing to do. No one forced it to take any action. It could have simply told those kids the same thing you just said: "Hey, if you don't like it, piss off!" It chose another approach -- one that is more inclusive.
There's nothing wrong with having pride in your state or heritage, but at the same time, it's important to be able to recognize that in some cases, what you consider heritage someone else considers hatred. I'm a native Virginian, and I'm glad the North won the war. It was the right outcome. I can still have pride in my state without waving a flag that (to a lot of people) represents slavery.
This post was edited on 7/12 7:47 PM by Eight Legger
There's nothing wrong with having pride in your state or heritage, but at the same time, it's important to be able to recognize that in some cases, what you consider heritage someone else considers hatred. I'm a native Virginian, and I'm glad the North won the war. It was the right outcome. I can still have pride in my state without waving a flag that (to a lot of people) represents slavery.
This post was edited on 7/12 7:47 PM by Eight Legger
Re: W&L corrects a previous mistake
WS, I don't believe there is a confederate ilk at w&l. There is a history ilk and an ilk of high expectations of duty and for being a gentleman ( and now a lady). The flags should never have been in the Chapel. Lee helped save the financially distressed college and publicly advanced the restoration of the country. He had high expectations of the students. He did not advance the "cause" after Appomattox and I don't think he would have agreed that the flags should have been anywhere but a museum as their display does not advance the restoration of the country.
WS, I don't believe there is a confederate ilk at w&l. There is a history ilk and an ilk of high expectations of duty and for being a gentleman ( and now a lady). The flags should never have been in the Chapel. Lee helped save the financially distressed college and publicly advanced the restoration of the country. He had high expectations of the students. He did not advance the "cause" after Appomattox and I don't think he would have agreed that the flags should have been anywhere but a museum as their display does not advance the restoration of the country.
A few years ago a young history teacher from Michigan let her opinion known during a history department meeting concerning the CSA. She said that those of us who are from the South should be ashamed if we had ancestors who fought in the Confederate army! My reply to her statement was, I am really going to be embarrassed with what some of my ancestors did some 90 years before I was born? I told her that I am not ashamed.
When I was a Freshmen at UR (1972) I lived in Dennis Hall, which at that time was a Freshmen dorm. One Saturday a bunch of us took the Westhampton 16 to downtown Richmond. While traveling on Monument Ave, a student from New York asked "Why did they build statues honoring a bunch of losers?" I said. "So you consider George Washington a loser?" He said he was referring to the Lee and Stuart statues. I told him if he does not like the historical statues in Richmond, he can go back to New York. At the end of the academic year, he transferred to a school up North.
When I was a Freshmen at UR (1972) I lived in Dennis Hall, which at that time was a Freshmen dorm. One Saturday a bunch of us took the Westhampton 16 to downtown Richmond. While traveling on Monument Ave, a student from New York asked "Why did they build statues honoring a bunch of losers?" I said. "So you consider George Washington a loser?" He said he was referring to the Lee and Stuart statues. I told him if he does not like the historical statues in Richmond, he can go back to New York. At the end of the academic year, he transferred to a school up North.
don't feel anyone here is attempting to throw anything in anyone's face here, no racism at all, at least in my mind. this is an institution, similar to byu, notre dame, west point, annapolis, berkeley, wellesley, liberty, bob jones, hillsdale, which have a certain personality due to certain factors. young men and women should look at, study, decide which institution they would like to attend based on themselves and how they fit a certain school. if there is not a fit, you simply go elsewhere. the thing you do not do is see that you may be uncomfortable then go there anyway and then try and change things which impact other people. my only beef here at all is that these individuals did the wrong thing and feel that w&l is doing the wrong thing. either you have a confederate history and culture there or you don't but you don't piecemeal dismantle it because two or three students are upset. w&l is falling to the PC police and this is a great example of it, they probably wish to retain it but they are afraid that it will make them look bad to "some" people and they give in to that and by "some", do not mean the young black men in this case or black people at all. we all know who the PC police are.
Have you been to W&L in the past several decades? It seems like you'd be surprised how little of a "confederate ilk" there is there these days. It's a national (and international) liberal arts college that I believe has a lower percentage of Virginians than we do.
If W&L has a fewer % of Virginians than UR, that is really sad! So give it 30 to 50 years, we'll have two universities in our commonwealth with basically no fans on the home side at football and basketball games! Both UR and W&L need MORE Virginians in their student bodies!
Actually the home side of both schools will be over run by fans of the opposing school. This is ALREADY happening when Richmond plays a certain school that is about seven miles away from the UR campus!
This post was edited on 7/13 12:28 PM by FrontRoyalSpider
Actually the home side of both schools will be over run by fans of the opposing school. This is ALREADY happening when Richmond plays a certain school that is about seven miles away from the UR campus!
This post was edited on 7/13 12:28 PM by FrontRoyalSpider
have been to lexington and w&l recently, know alums, prominent ones, and know what it is. am only saying that either get rid of the name, the body and the entire enchilada or you are what you are. you either erase it all or you keep it all. you are not a little bit wrong, a little bit offensive, you are either entirely wrong and offensive or not wrong at all. suggest they were not wrong at all until they did what they did.
This post was edited on 7/13 12:29 PM by WebSpinner
This post was edited on 7/13 12:29 PM by WebSpinner
That seems a bit drastic and overstated. I think most people would agree that Lee was a great Virginian who loved his state. Hell, he almost led the Northern troops! I don't think he was all good or all bad. He was probably much more good than bad. He was torn between love of state and a desire to do the right thing and he made a tough choice. I wouldn't suggest that that choice means he hated blacks and hated the Union.
It's quite possible to keep his legacy intact for what it was without wrapping it in the Confederate flag, IMO.
It's quite possible to keep his legacy intact for what it was without wrapping it in the Confederate flag, IMO.
none of that logic gets to the point that the school was wrong to make any changes at all. Gen Lee was who he was and if you visit the museum, not much question of that. again, understand the men being offended, which does not erase the fact that they were wrong to matriculate there, but the school should have told them they understand but that they must understand as well, not a one way PC, street here. this should have never happened unless these guys attended the school with an agenda which now has been attained. really think now they should change the name and get rid of the general and his wife, get them off the campus.
The school is the entity that made the decision. No one forced it to. Why would it make the 'wrong' decision on purpose? It made the right decision for itself, and it happens to be one that you disagree with, which of course is your right.
It would be like me telling you that you're wrong to eat so many hot dogs at tailgate because it's bad for you. Maybe in my opinion it is, but my opinion doesn't really matter. You're the one who needs to decide for yourself.
Also, if we continue this thread for another 12 or 13 posts, we will exceed the World Cup thread, which is not a bad thing.
It would be like me telling you that you're wrong to eat so many hot dogs at tailgate because it's bad for you. Maybe in my opinion it is, but my opinion doesn't really matter. You're the one who needs to decide for yourself.
Also, if we continue this thread for another 12 or 13 posts, we will exceed the World Cup thread, which is not a bad thing.
Soccer is boring! Who cares? I am glad UR dropped the sport! Those scholarships that went to soccer can now be put to better use.
Eight, as i have argued consistently on here, PC paints people into corners and labels them so that they seem bigoted, racists, homophobic, etc., no matter the real intention or no matter the truth. they made the decision because PC put them in a position to look racist if they did not. this had nothing to do with racism yet if they did nothing that is what "some" would have thought of them. PC is bad, polarizing, wrong, hushes speech and this is a prime example of how it works.
I just disagree. Either way, the school is going to be criticized -- from those of you who think "PC" is responsible for all the world's evils or from those who think the flag represents something more than pride of heritage. It chose to take the flag down, presumably, either because that's simply what its leaders wanted and/or because it determined that more people disagreed with leaving it up than did not. That's how decisions are made in the world.
I simply tend toward favoring decisions that are made with a broad spectrum of people in mind and with the idea of being sensitive, compassionate and inclusive toward as many people as possible. I've been on the other end of things many times. Probably most of us have. Even though the people who put me there were well within their legal rights to behave as they did, it wasn't a good feeling for me. I haven't forgotten that, which is a big reason why I feel the way that I do on this issue.
I'm personally willing to give up some of my freedoms and rights if it means making other people more comfortable/equal/included. If that's what you want to call "PC" behavior, so be it.
I simply tend toward favoring decisions that are made with a broad spectrum of people in mind and with the idea of being sensitive, compassionate and inclusive toward as many people as possible. I've been on the other end of things many times. Probably most of us have. Even though the people who put me there were well within their legal rights to behave as they did, it wasn't a good feeling for me. I haven't forgotten that, which is a big reason why I feel the way that I do on this issue.
I'm personally willing to give up some of my freedoms and rights if it means making other people more comfortable/equal/included. If that's what you want to call "PC" behavior, so be it.
humans are hurtful to each other both physically and mentally. hear things every day that would hurt me if i let them but i do not. we have created an entire cast of humans who can say no wrong, do no wrong and the other part of the entourage can say no right. what we have is an over sensitive set of people who instead of seeking counseling, want to send the other guy to counseling, with our colleges and universities leading the charge. this created environment emboldens these people to utilize this to do whatever they wish because they know the PC cops will back them and make sure it gets changed, whatever it may be. again, if the flag was so bad, it should have never been there if the first place. General Lee is not known for his family members signing the declaration or helping shape VA or for being a gentleman and a great man, he was know for commanding the army of the potomac and being in charge of the confederate military. yes he was a gentleman, a good guy and that is why grant treated him with so much respect at appomatox. that chapel and museum is about him as that man and that flag should be there and if the flag is taken down, then genuinely feel that the entire chapel and museum should be taken away as well. while at it, George Washington, owned hundreds of slaves so let's get him out of there as well.
Eight, understand what you are saying but like anything else, it goes too far, much too far and now we have a country full of victims and all they do is complain and want to get their way because the PC police backs them no matter the charge. as i said, see what these guys are saying, but they should have never gone to this school and now a can of worms is opened and no doubt the school if they be consistent, should get rid of both names and the chapel and the museum. you are either racists or you are not, feel they are not but they are acting guilty.
Eight, understand what you are saying but like anything else, it goes too far, much too far and now we have a country full of victims and all they do is complain and want to get their way because the PC police backs them no matter the charge. as i said, see what these guys are saying, but they should have never gone to this school and now a can of worms is opened and no doubt the school if they be consistent, should get rid of both names and the chapel and the museum. you are either racists or you are not, feel they are not but they are acting guilty.
Just because you disagree with a certain stance of an institution does not mean you should either not go there or just shut up and accept it. These students are in law school, where they are being trained to successfully argue the merits of a certain side. Seems like these students are putting there education to good use.
certainly young men and women matriculate at universities which are different than what they thought it was and they have a decision to make, stay, leave. these guys knew what they were doing, admit it so a different ballgame. would wager if a journalist wanted to do some work, would discover that this was all set up, planned, an agenda. feel w&l just put themselves on a very slippery slope for the future with their decision.
Or perhaps W&L was just looking for a reason to de Confederate Flag themselves. If you are seeking to be a top rate liberal arts university with a diverse student body, having the confederate flag hanging around your campus is probably not synonymous with that goal.
As with most slippery slope arguments, the slope is far less slippery than what those advocating it says it is.
As with most slippery slope arguments, the slope is far less slippery than what those advocating it says it is.
just me but doubt seriously that w&l wanted to do anything about it but were forced to or look like racists to the "some". w&l has been doing very well in rankings with the flag so really don't think that was a prob. most, common sense, people realize who he was and understand why you would have a csa battle flag in the chapel of the military commander of the csa. have no conspiracy in my blood at all but when something like this happens, sends up red flags.
Similar threads
