I do think under Mooney - the only guys who really develop and get better are guys who get minutes. So while it was nice to see DJI get minutes in the last 2-3 games because of injuries, and I liked some of the potential we saw - not sure how much that translates to this year. And you have to wonder how the returning of some many players will help or hinder the development of younger guys - who in a normal year would be in line for more playing time. I think it not only hurts them from an experience standpoint - but also a confidence standpoint as well.
Minutes Next Season
- Thread starter spider23
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Yeah I agree. While there is development in players it would be unheard of under Mooney to see a guy who played only 67 minutes all year step into a much larger role the following year. I cant think of anyone like that in Moon era. Now I like the length with Dji too & some intangibles I saw in brief time & admittedly he got a late start. And part of it might be you just say Mooney had a terrible year coaching, on and off court, which I believe is quite evident. At same time there was limited depth and you think there has to be a legit coaching decision behind why he didn't get more time. So I'm not expecting lot of minutes either myself but it's all just informed speculation, it's a long offseason there should be good comp and let's hope that makes for a great year.
We have rarely employed guards of more than modest size. Gonzo was 6’4”, and for awhile CM played 6’5” Trey Davis as a 2G. And of course there was the Oumar Sylla 6’7” PG experiment when he first coached here and had no scholarship guards. Other than that, I can’t say size has been our friend at PG/2G. In fact, more guys at those spots under 6’ than over the last ten years.
OK, guys ... What will happen when we have 160 guys (j/k - exaggeration) on the roster next November ... and two or more get teed off regarding their playing time ... and all the other D1 schools start recruiting them, especially since they don't have to sit out a year ... how many players will we have left in January?
Maybe I am worrying for nothing. But wait ... maybe Congress passes a Name, Image, and Likeness law ... Grant does an advertisement(s) for Cadillac - and they pay him with a Cadillac ... then Burton does an ad for a home repair business, and gets paid $1,000. Who will eventually get jealous; and how will schools recruiting our best players use that against us? Yep - I must be worrying for nothing. Right? What am I missing here?
Maybe I am worrying for nothing. But wait ... maybe Congress passes a Name, Image, and Likeness law ... Grant does an advertisement(s) for Cadillac - and they pay him with a Cadillac ... then Burton does an ad for a home repair business, and gets paid $1,000. Who will eventually get jealous; and how will schools recruiting our best players use that against us? Yep - I must be worrying for nothing. Right? What am I missing here?
You bring up some good points. If we're not careful, teams might use stuff against us and then we might miss the NCAAs for a lot of years in a row. Boy, that would suck.
Did you forget about Shawndre Jones? He played very little (almost none) until someone got hurt late season. I forget who it was that got hurt, but once circumstances forced Mooney to play him, Jones performed well and didn't look back.
I see a similar situation for DJI Bailey next season. Mooney buried him on the bench (we virtually never saw him) until Mooney's hand was forced by injuries. He showed much promise, and opened a lot of eyes in just a couple of games. Mooney's coaching strategy was to bury the freshman, (like he does regularly which virtually waste the year), but, it is obvious that Bailey should have been getting more time all along.
I agree with the opinion that Bailey gets a lot of minutes at the # 2, likely starting at least by mid-season. If he can knock down the jumper consistently enough, I think he goes on a Shawndre Jones type of trajectory.
Good assessment…Dji is def working on his shot as it is the point of emphasis this summer. He works on 500 makes a day. Plus hitting the weight room. Right now he’s 184 and I would like to see 200 but not if it takes away from his athleticism and he basically feels the same but I’ll defer to our strength Coach Jay DeMayo 🕷🏀
I was at Richmond with Gonzo. I am 6’4”. He was not.
Also, for the record, Ryan Butler was not 6’6”. All basketball heights are inflated...
They are inflated but I think for purposes of the discussion it’s not critical if we’re discussing roster height or real height. Gonzo was one of the last (and only) SGs with decent height. We’ve had a lot of short guard tandems the last decade.
Perhaps, not coincidently, we have not made the NCAA tournament with our two short guards line ups, so despite the individual success some of those short guards have had, it has not led to any type of program success.
I suspect that he and Jason Nelson will make a very good backcourt after next year. They will bring different, but complimentary skills to the table. Should blend very nicely.
man, my words get twisted sometimes.
I won't go back and try to find what I've said. I'll just state what I believe and have always believed. pretty sure I've been consistent.
I've never argued that playing time doesn't help. of course it does. I've argued 2 things on the subject:
1) some fans want guys "given" time even if they haven't earned it. stuff like "play the freshman over the senior to see what he's got". you just don't do that. you play the guy that has earned the time and that gives you the best chance to win. we don't see practice like the coaches do. you earn time in practice. if you don't earn time there, you don't get to play in the games. every player should know and believe that the best player plays. once you've shown you aren't fair as a coach for any reason you will have a very unhappy team.
2) some here feel players don't improve at all without game time. I've said that's totally false and I stand by that. a freshman who barely plays can still be a remarkably improved player by sophomore year. the workouts, the lifting, the film sessions, and a ton of practice ... it absolutely makes a difference. a year not getting much time is not a wasted year as some here have more than suggested. and don't write off a guy that didn't play much. not playing can be more of an opportunity issue than an ability issue, so it doesn't mean a guy isn't good if he didn't play much behind super talented upperclassmen.
Of course a player can improve themselves with off-season work. No-one argues that. BUT, a player does not gain game savvy at a new level by osmosis. The more game time a youngster gets early, the sooner they are likely to become a significant contributor.
If a coach wants to help his players become better, more quickly, he MUST get them game time as soon as practical. The more the better, BUT, no-one argues like you claim that Richmond fans are calling for the starter to get 20-minutes, and the youngster getting 20-minutes JUST BECAUSE.
If you bury a player on the bench all-season, the gain to that player and to the future team isn't what it could have been. Young players that are seen as future contributors MUST be worked into the rotation, even if only a few minutes per game.
Playing them only because someone got hurt is not a good long-term strategy in my opinion.
I wasn't talking about offseason work. never said offseason.
sure, but winning games is the primary goal. you're taking important development time away from better players. this isn't rec. they still get important practice time. they'll get important game time when they're one of the top 10 guys on the team. or in a blow out.
Never claimed that.
Agreed. and if you focus on the future at the expense of the present, you won't have much of a present. the kid not getting much time will still get tons of one on one time with coaches in practice. and he'll get his game chances eventually and he'll be ready ... or he'll get beat out by someone else who's more ready when that time comes.
Sman, enjoy your posts. You are frequently the one with a different take on things that makes sense. Appreciate that. Disagree with you on the necessity of playing younger players in game situations though.
Doesn't seem possible to build a program of sustained success unless coach is willing to give the younger players meaningful in game experience. UR is a good example. Spikes of success every few years, but not year in and year out like some of our A10 brethren. Attribute some of that to our substitution patterns v the Daytons and VCUs.
Doesn't seem possible to build a program of sustained success unless coach is willing to give the younger players meaningful in game experience. UR is a good example. Spikes of success every few years, but not year in and year out like some of our A10 brethren. Attribute some of that to our substitution patterns v the Daytons and VCUs.
“Best players play”. Ok define the best player. The answer has to be subjective assuming a team actually has more than 5 starter level players (which has been questionable on some of the Spider teams in the last decade). Mooney’s definition has always been whoever runs the “Princeton style” offense the best and since that system is more complicated than a standard high school offense for sure, the answer always was the upperclassmen, those with the most experience running the offense. So we have been treated to a “fluid” offense, no need for offensive rebounds, and more or less token defense for basically the entire time I have had basketball tickets, which is in the eight year range.
Agree. Mirrors 97's assertion that offense is over emphasized to the detriment of other vital components of the game. A correct assertion to my mind with ample data to support it.
If next year’s team comes out from the opening tip every night and plays like a team possessed, confident and pissed the F off about how it fell on its face this year, then we’ve got something special. Considering that no team in Mooney’s 16 years has ever done that, though, I’m not holding my breath. But that’s what this program needs — a big jolt of wake the hell up, want it more, demand more of each other and kick ass from start to finish. When you are better than another team, bury them. Win by 30 when you can.
Mooney’s problem has always been that his teams play like his personality, nice and unassuming. It usually shows on the court. More often than not since KA, with a handful of obvious exceptions, we play soft. We get pushed around. We retreat. We play down to inferior competition, almost like we’re afraid of hurting their feelings. I don’t know how you instill the opposite emotion in a program, but here’s hoping our new MoJo (literally and figuratively) can help.
Mooney’s problem has always been that his teams play like his personality, nice and unassuming. It usually shows on the court. More often than not since KA, with a handful of obvious exceptions, we play soft. We get pushed around. We retreat. We play down to inferior competition, almost like we’re afraid of hurting their feelings. I don’t know how you instill the opposite emotion in a program, but here’s hoping our new MoJo (literally and figuratively) can help.
I could not agree with you more, Sman. It is as if some people on here want us to be one of the few teams that have a 10-12 man rotation. It's just crazy. All across college basketball, guys go from being non rotation guys and playing very little early to being key parts of the team in later years. This you have to give your freshman some minutes talk is just beyond crazy. As you said earlier, what coach out there is going to sit a more experienced senior in favor of a freshman, even for a few minutes, when the senior is clearly the better option and the freshman is not even part of the 8 man rotation? Either a guy is part of the rotation or he is not. You don't force a guy into the rotation and give him a few minutes just because he is a freshman. It just rarely happens, but for whatever reason, some people on here expect us to be the exception here.
No Mooney team has done that? Really? I know a lot of people on here want to pretend 2 years ago did not happen, but it did. We did go 24-7. And, we won by huge margins. OOC we won games by 17, 18, 20, 28, and 30, and IC, we won games by 15, 18 twice, 22 twice, 24, 27, and 32. If that is not burying a bunch of teams, I don't know what is.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
I know a lot of people on here want to pretend the past ten years did not happen. but they did.
Shawndre was playing about 7-8 minutes a night from game 1 of his frosh year and then the last 11 games of the year he was above 20 minutes a night. So yes - he got to play minutes frosh year and get his experience. A lot different than DJI who was non-existent than last 3 games. With everyone returning - next year will be the time to "find minutes" for DJI. IF he can get 10 minutes consistently each game next year, that is a good sign for his future. If he gets buried again playing 5 or less and some games none at all - its not looking good for his future.
Dayton wasn't too concerned with getting minutes for the backups of Crutcher and Watson. they played almost every minute of every game. poor kids must be exhausted.
Dji's injury got him to a late start. he looks like a kid who could have played more but it's tough when there are a lot of guys ahead of you. Isaiah played. Burton played as a freshman. have there been any really talented, ready freshman that didn't play? I don't think so.
but you can't get 15 guys regular time and still develop continuity and win games. I don't know how many can play. regularly I'd say we'll play 10 ... maybe somehow 11. with injuries you could get to 12 or 13. 15 is too much. this returning senior year is fun but it's not fair to the freshmen.
I don't think it has anything to do with the Princeton offense.
Grant, Matt and Sal play the 5. is there a problem figuring out who the best player is?
Gilly starts at point. are we not sure he's better than the backups?
Burton, Cayo, Sherod, etc ...
you can usually tell who the best players are early on. problem is it can be very hard to improve your internal ranking once it gets in a coaches head. one good practice or game doesn't move the needle. it takes time.
Mooney pretty much either thinks a guy is ready to play right away or thinks he needs a couple years of seasoning first. There hasn’t been a lot of in between during his tenure here.
Seems rhetorical right? But then ask, who is the best defensive player of that group. Probably Sal, but the rhetorical answer you were looking for was Grant. Which gets back to native point about the complete over focus of offensive proficiency. Grant is at best a below average defensive player, but man he is great on offense and particularly the type of offense Mooney runs. So, he's the obvious choice right?
But what if Sal was given more minutes his freshman, sophomore, junior years and really honed himself into a rangy defensive big, that rhetorical question, might not be so rhetorical. Of course, we will never know that because Sal was buried on the Mooney bench.
This is the biggest thing with why he didn't play much. This was told to him and to us and I take coach at his word. In practice Dji was learning the positions..with an S. 1-3 because of his versatility. With that being said, I'll let you in on one of our convos "Dad I understand the offense but my timing and decision making is a little off, because I'm going through different reads in my head., which slows me down about a second" Which is a lot of time if bball terms. My point is this, I truly believe that Dji would have played a little more had not been injured coming in. In fact, we weren't blindsided when Coach Mooney recruited him in terms of playing time. He was always upfront and honest. Does that mean he will start this season...of course not. But I know bc I've seen it and been there during pick ups of who they are putting him with and what is being told(not that he will start..but he's trending the right way.) It doesn't mean anything right now and Oct is a long way off. But for those that say they don't see him playing any minutes or hardly at all...we can agree to disagree, esp if he stays healthy. I would like to think I know a little more than others of the day to day or whats going on with the team bc of Dji. Bottom line, like a lot of you have said...he is going to have to prove himself over the summer. I like his chances 😀 and he has a whole year under his belt of learning the system. 🕷️🏀
How can there be any in between there? Either you play right away, or you don't. That is 2 possibilities. What could in between possibly be? Wouldn't every college basketball player who's ever played fall into one of these two categories? Either they play right away, or they need more time.
Thanks so much for sharing this. I'm excited to see Dji play. I don't think starting is really that important right now anyway. If he doesn't start, he could be part of the rotation and play just as much as the starter. You would know way more than I about it, but I expect to see some really good competition in the back court beside Jacob, and we might see a few different lineups in the out of conference games before someone hopefully separates themselves.
Agree VT 100% the best thing for the team out of all of this is truly the competition at that 2 spot.
Well I meant plays and plays regularly or doesn't play at all. Mooney doesn't give many freshmen 1 or 2 minutes a game in every game. If they're good enough and ready enough in his eyes, they will play more than that. If not, they won't play at all.
And, it likely won't be just a play in the backcourt beside Jacob or don't play type of thing. I could certainly see some situations when Jacob, Dji, and Wilson are all on the floor together.
I see some Kinte Smith in Dji, and that would be a nice comp if he keeps progressing.
I guess I just don't follow you here. What coaches out there give freshman one or two minutes a game if they aren't part of the rotation? Who does that?
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