Don't sleep on Roche

PhillySpider

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so, who I see starting at one spot may very well influence who i see starting at another spot. For example, I don't think we can start a lineup with Grace, Quinn, and Roche all out there. Other two would be burton and nelson id guess, but I'd be deeply concerned with our perimeter defense with that group. Deeply! And that's even if Nelson is good defensively which we don't know. Some think Grace starts and if that happens, I think Goose has to start too and if Roche starts, I think Bigelow probably needs to start. Not saying Mooney wont do this because he is so overly wedded to his offensive system, but I don't see it working and I think/hope Moon will see that before game 1!
 
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PhillySpider

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And my third lineup comment before I disappear again - - - I think we see DJII a lot more than people on here are predicting. Early on, I think that battle for the PG spot continues from pre-season and we see a pretty even split over the first third of the season. May vary from game to game some, but Moon looks for someone to command that job with their game play rather than just give it to someone!
 

SpiderTrap

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Damn, Trap you go on a bender this weekend or something?. Quinn, an-all Patriot League player, who fits Mooney's system perfectly isn't starting and Roche, one of the leading 3 point shot makers in the country last year is behind Crabtree, who averaged a whole 2 points for us last year. Come on man, I know you like to play the role of Mooney and UR doing the absolutely dumbest shit imaginable (which often times has been spot on), but this is a bridge too far even for Mooney.
I am not saying Quinn and Roche won't have a chance at starting or being big time contributors for us this season. All I am saying is that I think to start the season - Grace gets the first opportunity, and I think Roche comes off the bench behind Goose and Burton. Roche doesn't handle well enough to play point, so he has to play off the ball. I actually think there is a better chance we see Quinn and Grace playing together at some point. I would not be surprised to see a starting line-up at some point of Quinn, Grace, Burton, Goose, and Nelson. And I think Bigelow plays big minutes off the bench simply because he is our main guy off the bench to sub for Quinn and Grace.

My problem with Roche is not so much his ability is that he really has in my mind - Burton and Goose ahead of him. Sure - Burton can play the 4, but I think we need him at the 3 more this year. I could see more minutes with a lineup of Nelson, Goose, Burton, Bigelow and then Grace/Quinn. And with that line-up - I think Roche struggles to find minutes because you got Burton playing 34+ minutes this year and I think Goose will do the same.
 

SpiderTrap

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Goose played 25 minutes a game last year, and that was coming off injury and coming off the bench half the year. I see no reason he doesn't play 30 minutes a night this upcoming season and I think he is a respectable shooter. Is he as good as Roche - probably not. But is he as bad as Cayo - not even close. I think Goose, given the shots, can shoot 33-35% from deep. And he may have to because you gotta believe teams will focus their attention on Burton to start the season. Which should provide opportunities for Goose, Grace, Nelson to score.
 

CarolinaSpider

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In summary folks we think we are pretty deep and there may be multiple lineup
configurations. Creating playing time, will be a challenge, but a good problem to have.
 
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LongTimeSpiderFan

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Goose played 25 minutes a game last year, and that was coming off injury and coming off the bench half the year. I see no reason he doesn't play 30 minutes a night this upcoming season and I think he is a respectable shooter. Is he as good as Roche - probably not. But is he as bad as Cayo - not even close. I think Goose, given the shots, can shoot 33-35% from deep. And he may have to because you gotta believe teams will focus their attention on Burton to start the season. Which should provide opportunities for Goose, Grace, Nelson to score.
"Which should provide opportunities for Goose, Grace, Nelson to score"... that's the problem.
To me your lineup would be lucky to average 55 points/game. We have no proven scorer outside of Burton without Quinn and Roche. These guys didn't come to UR to be backups to Grace and Goose, c'mon Trap. We'd have poor outside shooting with Goose in there who has trouble hitting 33% from 3 without a defender in his face, and Burton is certainly checkable from 3 if you stay close to him. We'd have poor spacing cuz no team is going to worry about Grace consistently scoring enough to require any double team whatsoever (I think I heard Quinn can score with either hand which will make him difficult to defend IF hes able to get good position and given space). If Roche doesn't start by the third game and get 25 minutes Id be very surprised.
If Goose is going to get 25+ minutes/game one of two things need to happen. 1) Goose needs to score well, or 2) the point guard (Nelson or Djii) needs to score well... we simply need more offense on the floor than Goose, Grace and (you say) Nelson.
 
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SpiderTrap

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But we also don't know if Roche or Quinn can score at this level either. They are coming up from lesser leagues. So to say they provide the scoring, while I think they can - is really no more than saying Goose and Grace can't score.

Scoring wise - we will score less than last year in my opinion, no matter what lineup we put out there.

But I think if we get Burton to stay around 16-18 points a game. Then we get Grace and Goose each to give 10-12 a game. That is about 36-40 points from those 3 guys. Very similar to 16-13-13 we got from Burton, Golden, and Gilyard last year. Cayo came in with 9 points and I think that is where maybe the next guys steps up.

Last year we averaged 71 points a game. I would not be surprised if that dips a little down to 65. Just based on what we loss and all the new pieces. But that is where defense becomes key.
 
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Regards to my preferred starters being too small and concerns about scoring with Goose getting lots of minutes:

1) I think fans are more enamored with height than coaches and the proposed lineup is 1 inch taller than last years starting lineup anyway. Whenever Nelson leaves we will get at least 7 inches taller. Mooney has played 6'5" at the 4 before, so he certainly isn't afraid to go with two players that height at the 2/3 positions. Historically, that is a tall combined height for us at those positions. It doesn't matter which of them you call the 2 -- Goose is usually going to be defending the other team's best offensive player on defense.

2) Goose's offense is sufficient for the 5th option. When the Roche/Burton/Quinn offensive juggernaut is in, Goose shouldn't be taking too many shots. Sadly, outside those three, I don't have confidence* that there are more than one or two better offensive players than him on the team. A marginal increase in offense from option #5 doesn't justify removing his defense.

* I realize there could be, but it is far from guaranteed.
 

spiderman

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Greg robbins comes to mind, but I generally agree with your sentiment.
ok, that's a pretty great example! (going back a bit!)
had kind of under achieved to that point. never started a game and then started every game as a senior.

I'd argue he was likely the best option at that time as opposed to favoring the senior though. he had a very good year. he replaced FCM (who graduated) in the line-up. Kendall Anthony would have made the lineup really small with Lindsay and Brothers. Allen, Davis and Taylor were just freshmen. Robbins beat out Sparrow.
 

spiderman

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And I think Bigelow plays big minutes off the bench simply because he is our main guy off the bench to sub for Quinn and Grace.
Bigelow weighs 200 lbs. he'll never play a minute at the 5. he's a big guard on some teams. he's a forward here.
 

spiderman

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I think Goose, given the shots, can shoot 33-35% from deep.
I hope you're right, but that's just wishful thinking. he's been here 4 years. he's shot as well as Deion Taylor from 3 for his career.
Deion Taylor.

Grace also shot 28% from 3 last year and without the above average defense of Goose. I just don't know how anyone can thinks we can compete starting 2 guys who shoot poorly from outside, a center who really doesn't shoot from out there, and a freshman PG.
 

97spiderfan

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But we also don't know if Roche or Quinn can score at this level either. They are coming up from lesser leagues. So to say they provide the scoring, while I think they can - is really no more than saying Goose and Grace can't score.

Scoring wise - we will score less than last year in my opinion, no matter what lineup we put out there.

But I think if we get Burton to stay around 16-18 points a game. Then we get Grace and Goose each to give 10-12 a game. That is about 36-40 points from those 3 guys. Very similar to 16-13-13 we got from Burton, Golden, and Gilyard last year. Cayo came in with 9 points and I think that is where maybe the next guys steps up.

Last year we averaged 71 points a game. I would not be surprised if that dips a little down to 65. Just based on what we loss and all the new pieces. But that is where defense becomes key.
Roche dropped 27 against an ACC team. He went for 16 against a 27 win Chatty team that beat VCU and nearly took out Illinois in the dance. I think he can score at this level.
 

spiderman

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Then we get Grace and Goose each to give 10-12 a game.
Golden and Gilyard were two of our best offensive players of all time at their positions here. they scored 13 ppg last year.
I just don't see Grace or Goose being within 1-3 points of Golden and Gilyard's offensive production. they're not at that level offensively.
 
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Given the apparent weakness in our schedule this upcoming season, I don't think there will be much difference for Roche or Bigelow. But Quinn did play a light schedule according to NET rankings.
 
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GKiller

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Last year we averaged 71 points a game. I would not be surprised if that dips a little down to 65. Just based on what we loss and all the new pieces. But that is where defense becomes key.

If we average 65 we r in deep u know what and won't have a good year. 65 would put is the 300s ranking in all d1.
we did not shoot well at all as a team from 3 last season. We improve that we'll be fine and & should even beat last year ppg.
 

POMSpidur

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In summary folks we think we are pretty deep and there may be multiple lineup
configurations. Creating playing time, will be a challenge, but a good problem to have.
I don’t think we’re any more “deep” than we have been the last few years. There’s just more question marks from the 2nd best player to the 10th best player
 

CarolinaSpider

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But we also don't know if Roche or Quinn can score at this level either. They are coming up from lesser leagues. So to say they provide the scoring, while I think they can - is really no more than saying Goose and Grace can't score.

Scoring wise - we will score less than last year in my opinion, no matter what lineup we put out there.

But I think if we get Burton to stay around 16-18 points a game. Then we get Grace and Goose each to give 10-12 a game. That is about 36-40 points from those 3 guys. Very similar to 16-13-13 we got from Burton, Golden, and Gilyard last year. Cayo came in with 9 points and I think that is where maybe the next guys steps up.

Last year we averaged 71 points a game. I would not be surprised if that dips a little down to 65. Just based on what we loss and all the new pieces. But that is where defense becomes key.
Roche did drop 27 on Pittsburgh from the ACC.
 
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GKiller

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Roche did struggle w 3 shooting end of last season. .287 last 9 games. My guess is he got a lot more attention or maybe just hit the freshman wall. but u can also get stretches like that sometimes regardless. I'm hoping our O can get him more open looks.
 

spiderman

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Roche did struggle w 3 shooting end of last season. .287 last 9 games. My guess is he got a lot more attention or maybe just hit the freshman wall. but u can also get stretches like that sometimes regardless. I'm hoping our O can get him more open looks.
I didn't realize until just now that Gilyard crushed the old "3 pointers in a season" record this past year with 94. the prior record was Rodney Rice with 85 back in 1988. Gilyard played 37 games vs Rice's 33. for reference ... Burton hit 57 last year.

Roche hit 110 in 31 games.

defenses have to chase him and account for him, and that opens up things for everyone else.
 

SpiderTrap

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I didn't realize until just now that Gilyard crushed the old "3 pointers in a season" record this past year with 94. the prior record was Rodney Rice with 85 back in 1988. Gilyard played 37 games vs Rice's 33. for reference ... Burton hit 57 last year.

Roche hit 110 in 31 games.

defenses have to chase him and account for him, and that opens up things for everyone else.
Defenses will not have to chase him in our offense. Our offense is not about setting screens for shooters, its about spacing, backcuts, and open the floor. Teams will have to stay near Roche, which should limit the help his defender can give on drives or backcuts - but I don't see him running around the floor wearing his defender down. If that happens - Mooney has done a 180 with his offense.
 
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Defenses will not have to chase him in our offense. Our offense is not about setting screens for shooters, its about spacing, backcuts, and open the floor. Teams will have to stay near Roche, which should limit the help his defender can give on drives or backcuts - but I don't see him running around the floor wearing his defender down. If that happens - Mooney has done a 180 with his offense.
See post #72 from spiderman. Roche and @SpiderMBB are big liars if what you say is true.
 

urmite

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I didn't realize until just now that Gilyard crushed the old "3 pointers in a season" record this past year with 94. the prior record was Rodney Rice with 85 back in 1988. Gilyard played 37 games vs Rice's 33. for reference ... Burton hit 57 last year.

Roche hit 110 in 31 games.

defenses have to chase him and account for him, and that opens up things for everyone else.
Roche last season
Games/made per game/attempted per game/%
3 Non D1/4.7/9.7/.483
8 D1 OOC/3.5/8.9/.394
1st 11 Con/4.3/9.5/.452
last 9 Con/2.3/8.1/.288
31/3.5/8.9/.397
in 36.36 minutes per game.

Different topic - last season minutes per game (sort of)
Grace 16
Bigelow 23
Quinn 29
Goose 31
Burton 33
Roche 36

If (if, IF...) the same then 32 total for Nelson, Bailey & Crabtree?
 
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spiderman

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Defenses will not have to chase him in our offense. Our offense is not about setting screens for shooters, its about spacing, backcuts, and open the floor. Teams will have to stay near Roche, which should limit the help his defender can give on drives or backcuts - but I don't see him running around the floor wearing his defender down. If that happens - Mooney has done a 180 with his offense.
it will be interesting to see. Roche talks about working non-stop to get open for shots. we haven't had a guy play like that. I don't know if that's been our players' style or strictly Mooney. Sherod certainly didn't move like that. but maybe that was just Sherod. our offense might look a little different with a guy who's proven he can get open and knock down shots.
 
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SpiderTrap

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See post #72 from spiderman. Roche and @SpiderMBB are big liars if what you say is true.
We have had good shooters - Brothers, Sherod, Gonzo, Kendall Anthony - and none of them were running around off screens. But in reality - this should be a good thing for Roche. He should not have to work as hard for shots, IF - we can get Burton and Nelson into good driving opportunities where they can kick out to shooters, or can we get Quinn and Grace posted and kicking out on the weak side. I have no worries about the post games - we already have done that with Golden, but I worry about getting opportunities for Burton as we have normally not had our best player on the wing without our PG being the best or next best player. We have had Gilyard and Golden. We had Anderson and Harper. Burton has had Gilyard last year to set him up with driving advantages, but can that continue? And I think that is where some coaching comes into play. Burton is our best player - hands down, so we need to have some plays specifically for him.
 

VT4700

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I remember ShawnDre and Brothers moving around a lot, and getting screens set for them. Stamina does become a factor, and not everyone can just constantly move on offense, but I definitely expect this with Roche on the floor.
 

VT4700

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Kendall had plenty of screens set for him also. At 5'8, we had to find ways to get him good looks.
 

LongTimeSpiderFan

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Regards to my preferred starters being too small and concerns about scoring with Goose getting lots of minutes:

1) I think fans are more enamored with height than coaches and the proposed lineup is 1 inch taller than last years starting lineup anyway. Whenever Nelson leaves we will get at least 7 inches taller. Mooney has played 6'5" at the 4 before, so he certainly isn't afraid to go with two players that height at the 2/3 positions. Historically, that is a tall combined height for us at those positions. It doesn't matter which of them you call the 2 -- Goose is usually going to be defending the other team's best offensive player on defense.

2) Goose's offense is sufficient for the 5th option. When the Roche/Burton/Quinn offensive juggernaut is in, Goose shouldn't be taking too many shots. Sadly, outside those three, I don't have confidence* that there are more than one or two better offensive players than him on the team. A marginal increase in offense from option #5 doesn't justify removing his defense.

* I realize there could be, but it is far from guaranteed.
I don't see Roche as a small forward. Can he play it maybe... Dont see that from what I've seen/heard and hed also have to guard the other teams 3 which is asking a lot. So, smallish by skillset moreso than by height.
I also have concerns for Gooses playing time because I think a healthy Djii can be as good defensively - or almost as good - as Goose and seems to bring some unique offensive skills and can handle the ball.
I love Goose but if I had to pick him or Djii on my team I would probably take Djii... I am excited about him as the new transfers since he's not been on the court alot.
 

VT4700

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I don't see Roche as a small forward. Can he play it maybe... Dont see that from what I've seen/heard and hed also have to guard the other teams 3 which is asking a lot. So, smallish by skillset moreso than by height.
I also have concerns for Gooses playing time because I think a healthy Djii can be as good defensively - or almost as good - as Goose and seems to bring some unique offensive skills and can handle the ball.
I love Goose but if I had to pick him or Djii on my team I would probably take Djii... I am excited about him as the new transfers since he's not been on the court alot.
Other team's 3? Who do you think will be out there against us? Scottie Pippen? Do you really think it makes sense to not play a guy like Roche extra minutes because he might not be able to guard another team's "3"? When so many teams we play will probably have three guards out there anyway?

As for your Goose/Dji comparison, I hope Dji can be a key piece and a big part of the rotation, but I am not sure what we have seen the past 2 years that makes him a better option than Goose. He hasn't even hit his first 3 yet. I could be wrong, but I think any time Dji gets will be at PG.
 
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spiderman

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if Roche and Goose are on the floor together, I put Goose on the bigger wing player (the "3").
Roche is thin. Goose has 25 lbs on him.
 

brooklyn brownstone

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what I've learned in this thread about Goose:

1. Beat out an upperclassman and started a bunch of games as a freshman.
2. Got healthy, returned and started a bunch of games for an NCAA 2nd round team his senior year.
3. Mooney is not going to play him in his super-senior year more than 9-12 minutes a game.

One of these things does not track for me.
 

UR80sfan

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I think Goose is a great player, but hope Roche starts over him. It would mean that Roche is a great player that we will have for the next 3 years.
 
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spider23

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Brownstone, yes, as much as I have been looking for more offense, Goose had a direct impact on winning last year. He plays d and wins, that is hard to ignore. As sman suggest, if he is on the court with Roche, I think Goose can guard the opponents 3 man.
 

SpiderTrap

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I don't see Roche as a small forward. Can he play it maybe... Dont see that from what I've seen/heard and hed also have to guard the other teams 3 which is asking a lot. So, smallish by skillset moreso than by height.
I also have concerns for Gooses playing time because I think a healthy Djii can be as good defensively - or almost as good - as Goose and seems to bring some unique offensive skills and can handle the ball.
I love Goose but if I had to pick him or Djii on my team I would probably take Djii... I am excited about him as the new transfers since he's not been on the court alot.
The last 6-7 games of the season last year - Goose was playing 30 minutes a game. And that was with Gilyard, Cayo, Burton, and Golden. So I can't imagine those guys graduate and leave and Goose goes down in minutes. Roche will be a key piece - no doubt. I could see him playing 20 minutes a night off the bench by the end of the season - but the fact he probably is only a 2 and can't play PG limits him - and for his scoring to make up for that, he would need to score like 15 points a game, and I am not sure he can do that now.
 

RichmondNative

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Always like your posts Philly and that is why I am going to point/counterpoint you here.

Fact is that we we very well may need to start 3 guys who haven't played a lot for UR because that's really all we have.
Has to be true. 3 starters are gone.

Not sure I see the advantage of starting guys with more PRACTICE experience in the system over new to the system guys who have more GAME experience overall.
Not saying it is an advantage, saying that I think it is important to Mooney and exactly why he shows a short leash to the young guys. It has to “look right” and the only way you are going to “learn on the job” is if he has no choice. So I think players with more repetition have an advantage in getting starting spots ESPECIALLY at the beginning of the season.

If I am Mooney, I am starting the guys I think will be the best ones come game 30 and not who might be the best on opening night.
Almost the exact opposite of what Mooney tends to do in my opinion. He is going to start whoever he is most comfortable with at the beginning of the season and I think he will favor the players that have “paid their dues”. He will not stick with them no matter what, but he is going to give them the first shot. To be clear, I don’t think this means that none of the transfers will start on day 1. I simply do not see all of them starting as was suggested. Like most, I think Quinn will start, so that’s one.

so, who I see starting at one spot may very well influence who i see starting at another spot.
Definitely agree, which is why I said that what matters is how the players fit together and unless you are at practice you have no idea what that looks like.
 
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SpiderTrap

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Agree Native - especially with the point of guys having experience and practiced in the system. This doesn't mean the transfers will not play, they certainly will - but I agree - I think guys like Grace and Goose get the first opportunity - not only because they know the system, and I think there is a reward there as well for sticking around and performing well last year. That is not to say that changes will not occur during the year if they don't perform well on the court or guys behind them start playing better and better.

I think the guy - just based off videos posted - that has the best chance to start right away is Bigelow. I think we could start with Grace, Bigelow, Burton, Goose, and Nelson. WIth that lineup - we might be a little smaller, but I think Bigelow and Burton are athletic enough to help on the boards. I think that also gives shooters at all positions. Shooters to the point where you have to respect them - unlike in the past with Cayo.

I could see that starting lineup - and then even times where Grace and Quinn play together for short minutes.
 

Eight Legger

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We have petitioned the A10 to field two entries this year – Richmond National and Richmond American – and make it an even 16-team league. Right now, Mooney is trying to figure out the best combinations for each roster.
 

97spiderfan

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I didn't realize until just now that Gilyard crushed the old "3 pointers in a season" record this past year with 94. the prior record was Rodney Rice with 85 back in 1988. Gilyard played 37 games vs Rice's 33. for reference ... Burton hit 57 last year.

Roche hit 110 in 31 games.

defenses have to chase him and account for him, and that opens up things for everyone else.
So, the guy who would have blown away our all time 3 point record last year, is a guy who is gonna come off the bench this year and maybe get up to 20 minutes a game by the end of the year. Yeah, ok.

I like Goose as much as the next guy and he was perfect for team last year, but lets also remember who he replaced, Wilson who averaged a bit over 2 points a game and is now at Winthrop and Sherod, who played like he was 45 years old (no offense, two ACL's). So, yeah, our team was going to look better with Goose out there.

Goose's defense was also critical on a team that collectively was not great at defense but had ample scoring option, so a defensive first shooting guard worked. I don't see the fit as well this year. Goose may start to start the season, cause Mooney is as loyal, and an old blind hound dog, but Roche is a better player. Not a knock on Goose, who is a good player, Roche is better though.
 
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SpiderDad75

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Always like your posts Philly and that is why I am going to point/counterpoint you here.


Has to be true. 3 starters are gone.


Not saying it is an advantage, saying that I think it is important to Mooney and exactly why he shows a short leash to the young guys. It has to “look right” and the only way you are going to “learn on the job” is if he has no choice. So I think players with more repetition have an advantage in getting starting spots ESPECIALLY at the beginning of the season.


Almost the exact opposite of what Mooney tends to do in my opinion. He is going to start whoever he is most comfortable with at the beginning of the season and I think he will favor the players that have “paid their dues”. He will not stick with them no matter what, but he is going to give them the first shot. To be clear, I don’t think this means that none of the transfers will start on day 1. I simply do not see all of them starting as was suggested. Like most, I think Quinn will start, so that’s one.


Definitely agree, which is why I said that what matters is how the players fit together and unless you are at practice you have no idea what that looks like.
Very solid post Native! I would like to add to the overall convo is the ones…the guys who have been in the 1st group since summer started would surprise some people on this board. I’ll leave it at that 😀. Of course nothing is set in stone but some may find it surprising. 🕷🏀
 
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spiderman

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Very solid post Native! I would like to add to the overall convo is the ones…the guys who have been in the 1st group since summer started would surprise some people on this board. I’ll leave it at that 😀. Of course nothing is set in stone but some may find it surprising. 🕷🏀
come on, Dad!
no need to say which group is which ... but when coach puts two teams on the floor to scrimmage, what are the most common lineups you're seeing? or do they change all the time?
 

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