Don't sleep on Roche

spiderman

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I hear you, but I doubt he could get away with that against A-10 athletes. I bet Goose could stop him.
maybe. but this kid is an A-10 level or better athlete himself. if he grad transfers I expect he'll go high major.
 

urmite

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maybe Dji is Magic Johnson lite!

just saying that type. Princeton has a kid who they isolate up top a ton. can't shoot a lick. but you can't stop him driving and if you double he finds the open shooter. shot 12% from 3 and was POY in the Ivy.
Dji is not that big. A healthy Dji is Jordan not Magic...
I guess that would be ok..

Your outside shot can be a bit more suspect if no one (or even 3) can stop you from getting to the rim.
 

urmite

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I get the argument and maybe we are not that far off. I agree that our guards need to have a consistent jumper not always a 3 pt shot but there are tons of guards that can iso you…look at my above stat post with league guys. A lot of our stuff is run through the 5 spot making reads and setting pics. Great or even good guards can use that to their advantage.
Wait? So post #28 isn't our rotation next season?
 
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spiderman

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Dji is not that big. A healthy Dji is Jordan not Magic...
I guess that would be ok..

Your outside shot can be a bit more suspect if no one (or even 3) can stop you from getting to the rim.
yes Dji's smaller than Magic. probably better examples out there. but I'm talking successful playmaker who wasn't a shooter. I know Jordan got assists, but he was never a PG.

agreed on the "getting to the rim" point.
 
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SpiderDad75

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maybe Dji is Magic Johnson lite!

just saying that type. Princeton has a kid who they isolate up top a ton. can't shoot a lick. but you can't stop him driving and if you double he finds the open shooter. shot 12% from 3 and was POY in the Ivy.
This….and I would take that😀 I’m biased of course but I know what Dji can do and what he’s done while going against top guards in his class. I’m confident he can get to where he wants but he will need a consistent J not necessarily a 3 to be a real problem. But he’s unproven at this level so far.
 
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SpiderDad75

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Dji is not that big. A healthy Dji is Jordan not Magic...
I guess that would be ok..

Your outside shot can be a bit more suspect if no one (or even 3) can stop you from getting to the rim.
Magic and Jordan 😀 hey I’ll take it. Seriously I think the point was height wise if Dji runs PG consistently he is a bigger guard than most or the avg guard in the A10. I’ve seen Dji beat Goose so it’s not like it’s impossible. Goose is one of our best defenders, that doesn’t make him immune to being beat just as with any player. Right now 6’6 and aiming for 195ish by start of season. That’s a BIG guard and Ill take against any guard in the conf. 😀…edit I read the Goose part wrong…think VT referring to the Princeton guy.
 
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SpiderDad75

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Every guy on here can hit an open 20 footer, and has shown they can hit the 3, so whether they are all good 3 point shooters or not is irrelevant because you have to guard all of them. And, if you leave them open from 3, pretty much all of them would shoot a solid percentage from there. I mentioned Beekman earlier. A good example for us would be Khwan Fore. Khwan was a good basketball player for us, but he never developed a consistent 3, and as quick as he was, never really broke down the defense much as a result. He actually shot over 36% and 33% from 3 his 1st 2 years here, but it was low volume, and he was rarely guarded out there. Teams dared him to shoot the 3, and because they played off of him, he could not drive and dish much. He played 34 and 32 minutes a game his 2nd and 3rd years, probably played more PG than ShawnDre did, but only averaged 2.5 and 2.7 assists a game, and many times his guy guarding him could help out elsewhere.
The last thing I will say about this is guys are not going to just stand around… our offense isn’t built that way. I actually think we have guys like Jason, Dji, and Bigelow that can beat you off the dribble. We know Dji has the ability to make the right reads and has the ability to iso guys. I think Jason has that ability too(great IQs). The nba guys I listed are the ones who will iso you to death and only a couple maybe even just 1 that is deadly from 3 pt range…Curry. And all of them arent on the same team as you stated . You also said the only way our PGs can break down defenders is to be able to hit 3s…just not going to rock with you on that one. Maybe for me you are just a 3 pt guy….cool, I don’t subscribe to that theory. Basketball is more than 3pts at least for me. Yes you need them in todays game and in our offense but if your pg isn’t deadly from 3 then he better be able to get into the paint and I think we have to two that can maybe even 3. I’ll die on the hill that defenses aren’t going to just stay all the way back on players and our guards are not going to stay at top and not try to create. That’s simply just narrow way of thinking imo.
 
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spider23

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ust saying that type. Princeton has a kid who they isolate up top a ton. can't shoot a lick. but you can't stop him driving and if you double he finds the open shooter. shot 12% from 3 and was POY in the Ivy.
Hunter Maldonado at Wyoming is that type of player too! Was a beast of a 6'7 PG. Only shot 25% from 3, but was a killer. I think Dji can be a better shooter than these guys.

 

SpiderDad75

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97spiderfan

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When it comes to Roche, to me this kid has already shown that he can play at a high level in D-1. All of our freshman and redshirts haven't shown us that yet.
 

VT4700

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The last thing I will say about this is guys are not going to just stand around… our offense isn’t built that way. I actually think we have guys like Jason, Dji, and Bigelow that can beat you off the dribble. We know Dji has the ability to make the right reads and has the ability to iso guys. I think Jason has that ability too(great IQs). The nba guys I listed are the ones who will iso you to death and only a couple maybe even just 1 that is deadly from 3 pt range…Curry. And all of them arent on the same team as you stated . You also said the only way our PGs can break down defenders is to be able to hit 3s…just not going to rock with you on that one. Maybe for me you are just a 3 pt guy….cool, I don’t subscribe to that theory. Basketball is more than 3pts at least for me. Yes you need them in todays game and in our offense but if your pg isn’t deadly from 3 then he better be able to get into the paint and I think we have to two that can maybe even 3. I’ll die on the hill that defenses aren’t going to just stay all the way back on players and our guards are not going to stay at top and not try to create. That’s simply just narrow way of thinking imo.
I enjoy your posts so don't make it the last thing you will say on this on my account. We can disagree on the NBA guys. I think several are excellent from 3 point land. You named 7, and in addition to Curry, 2 are 36+% career 3 point shooters, and 2 more are over 38% for their career. So, I think that is solid, but it really doesn't tell much anyway because how can you compare NBA superstars to a guy that has 0 college minutes and a guy who has 191 career college minutes?

Do you know something we don't about our PGs and 3s? Should we not expect good 3 point shooting from that position? We can definitely disagree about the importance of that. I will be very concerned if our PG can't hit 3s. You say our point guards will be fine with beating guys off the dribble and all that without a three-point shot. Well, how do we know that? Really, the only thing we have to go on is high school stuff from them. I don't think a couple examples of a guy from Princeton and a 5 year guy from Wyoming is a good comparison to our guys right now. If I am coaching against us, of course I am going to make the inexperienced PG prove he can shoot before guarding him too closely. I realize how much we cut and move and all that, but as a defender, I can still play off guys that move and cut, which makes it that much harder to cut. Our backdoor plays would be non existent if the defense has 3 guys in the lane all the time. As I said earlier, the past 9 years, we have had ShawnDre and Jacob, who could make the 3 consistently. I think that needs to continue for us to get where we want to go.
 
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VT4700

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maybe. but this kid is an A-10 level or better athlete himself. if he grad transfers I expect he'll go high major.
I hear you, but keep in mind you are comparing a guy that in your words could go high major to a couple of guys who have played 0 and 191 college minutes. I guess if Nelson and Dji were guaranteed superstars who could transfer to high major programs, I would be less worried about how they might shoot the 3. Until then, I hope they show they can shoot it.
 

spiderman

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didn't mean to compare them. just saying that type of guard can be successful, especially if surrounded by shooters.
but like you, I hope our PG will make shots.
 

SpiderDad75

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I enjoy your posts so don't make it the last thing you will say on this on my account. We can disagree on the NBA guys. I think several are excellent from 3 point land. You named 7, and in addition to Curry, 2 are 36+% career 3 point shooters, and 2 more are over 38% for their career. So, I think that is solid, but it really doesn't tell much anyway because how can you compare NBA superstars to a guy that has 0 college minutes and a guy who has 191 career college minutes?

Do you know something we don't about our PGs and 3s? Should we not expect good 3 point shooting from that position? We can definitely disagree about the importance of that. I will be very concerned if our PG can't hit 3s. You say our point guards will be fine with beating guys off the dribble and all that without a three-point shot. Well, how do we know that? Really, the only thing we have to go on is high school stuff from them. I don't think a couple examples of a guy from Princeton and a 5 year guy from Wyoming is a good comparison to our guys right now. If I am coaching against us, of course I am going to make the inexperienced PG prove he can shoot before guarding him too closely. I realize how much we cut and move and all that, but as a defender, I can still play off guys that move and cut, which makes it that much harder to cut. Our backdoor plays would be non existent if the defense has 3 guys in the lane all the time. As I said earlier, the past 9 years, we have had ShawnDre and Jacob, who could make the 3 consistently. I think that needs to continue for us to get where we want to go.
I don’t know much more than you in terms of how we are going to shoot it, no one does except the coaches who are watching everyday. I think in terms of the examples given And the comparison was big guards/good guards in general don’t always have to have a 3 pt shot and will still be a factor and get to where they want to get. I agree our guards need a consistent jump shot but I personally don’t think it has to be a 3. The nba example was simply about they are decent shooters but to me…off of that list is Curry. Maybe not a great example is Westbrook(not listed)…not a great shooter but could get anywhere he wants. The league guys that I listed are/or can be iso guys who can get wherever they want without a 3 pt shot and It was an example of guys who don’t necessarily rely entirely on 3pts and again can get where they want Not that our guys are on their level. How many times have we seen teams with 3 guys packed in the lane without running a zone? I’m not disagreeing with with what we need…ie 3 pt shooter but I just can’t get behind your argument of teams won’t defend our young guards. If anything they may press up on them more. PG is hard and being pushed full court defensively a majority of the game is extremely tough at this level. I think that happens before they decide to pack it in. Im not even saying that teams won’t lay off of our guards IF they show us they can’t shoot but for teams to just say we going to let these guys shoot (if they perceive we can’t) and they not guard us I’m just not going to buy into that. Funny thing is with stats…we can make them to our advantage so I don’t put a lot of weight in them esp with guys that are just getting a new role based off of their old role, don’t think it’s a fair comparison.
 

SpiderDad75

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didn't mean to compare them. just saying that type of guard can be successful, especially if surrounded by shooters.
but like you, I hope our PG will make shots.
Yes that’s the way I took it and tried to explain in my post above.
 

VT4700

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I don’t know much more than you in terms of how we are going to shoot it, no one does except the coaches who are watching everyday. I think in terms of the examples given And the comparison was big guards/good guards in general don’t always have to have a 3 pt shot and will still be a factor and get to where they want to get. I agree our guards need a consistent jump shot but I personally don’t think it has to be a 3. The nba example was simply about they are decent shooters but to me…off of that list is Curry. Maybe not a great example is Westbrook(not listed)…not a great shooter but could get anywhere he wants. The league guys that I listed are/or can be iso guys who can get wherever they want without a 3 pt shot and It was an example of guys who don’t necessarily rely entirely on 3pts and again can get where they want Not that our guys are on their level. How many times have we seen teams with 3 guys packed in the lane without running a zone? I’m not disagreeing with with what we need…ie 3 pt shooter but I just can’t get behind your argument of teams won’t defend our young guards. If anything they may press up on them more. PG is hard and being pushed full court defensively a majority of the game is extremely tough at this level. I think that happens before they decide to pack it in. Im not even saying that teams won’t lay off of our guards IF they show us they can’t shoot but for teams to just say we going to let these guys shoot (if they perceive we can’t) and they not guard us I’m just not going to buy into that. Funny thing is with stats…we can make them to our advantage so I don’t put a lot of weight in them esp with guys that are just getting a new role based off of their old role, don’t think it’s a fair comparison.
We have not seen teams pack it in much, but we have had ShawnDre and Jacob the last 9 years. That is why. If either couldn't shoot the 3, no doubt we would have seen teams pack it in more. That is why I used the UVA example with Beekman. I watched them a lot, and every game teams packed it in against them. They had some real stinkers offensively because of this.
 

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I will disagree with you on PGs need to be able hit the 3. The defense still has to guard the player...no? How many teams play zone in conf? Isn't our offense predicated off reads and picks? That also can help our playmakers get off IF they are having trouble. Beating someone off the dribble has nothing to do with if they can hit a 3. If a guard is constantly beating someone up top...the defense has to move..has too. We suffered from this last season in terms of guarding up top on occasion. Doesn't matter if you can hit a 3, at least imo. By your scenario the guards are going to play off of our guys until they prove they can hit shots...nothing I've seen these 2 years say teams are going to play off of us.
Shot making is critical to the offense. With the amount of DHO, defense going under loses the edge. Mooney been predicated on shot making for a decade now
 

spiderman

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MAGIC JOHNSON.? The best PG ever? If you can’t shoot, you have to be Collins from SLU…
I was looking for a bigger PG. one thing that stands out with Dji is his size at the position.
plenty of examples of effective small PGs who weren't shooters. we had a great one in Beckwith.
 

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In our offense, if you're not a shooter or at least the threat to be a shooter, then hopefully there is a scoring element to your game, slashing and finishing, cutting off ball and backdoor. Even Goose for his shooting inconsistency, had a few games of >1 made three. We want more of those from him and regular games of those from our PG.

I'm also hoping for more of a true 4 out offense this year. Nate and Grant really had to basically alternate post ups in the offense last year and the number of times the ball rotation after a kick out ended up in a wide-open Nate's hands at the 3 point line, only for the offense to then have to reset at 8s on the shot clock - that was frustrating. If Quinn can have the lane to himself and we have 4 guys who can threaten from 3 for rotations to the open guy, hopefully it gives Quinn the ability to get more iso matchups on the block. And more open looks on the perimeter from guys who can make it when they do double team Quinn.

I'm glad all our guys are brining different strengths in their offensive games, I think it allows UR to diversify if an opponent shuts down an aspect of the offense. We've seen an overreliance on the same sets if things are not working and the droughts that accompany it when a good defense or cold shooting happens. If we have guys who can just go get a bucket via a blow by to the rim, it really helps avoid that.
 

VT4700

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I was looking for a bigger PG. one thing that stands out with Dji is his size at the position.
plenty of examples of effective small PGs who weren't shooters. we had a great one in Beckwith.
That was the pre 3 point era, and the game was WAY different then. Shoot, the game is different now than it was 10 years ago. Just look at 3 point stats then and now. Teams are shooting way more three-pointers, making way more 3 pointers, and have way more guys that can make them.
 

spiderman

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That was the pre 3 point era, and the game was WAY different then. Shoot, the game is different now than it was 10 years ago. Just look at 3 point stats then and now. Teams are shooting way more three-pointers, making way more 3 pointers, and have way more guys that can make them.
yes, but I believe a guy like that would still be among the greats. you have to put the right guys around him though. can't have a bunch of non-shooters on the floor. but you can have a non-shooting PG if he makes the other 4 better and if he defends like crazy.
 

SpiderDad75

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yes, but I believe a guy like that would still be among the greats. you have to put the right guys around him though. can't have a bunch of non-shooters on the floor. but you can have a non-shooting PG if he makes the other 4 better and if he defends like crazy.
Agreed…Yeah the game has changed…and bc you’re not a 3 pt specialist in this game doesn’t mean you can’t be an impact guy! I’m soooo high my son Bc I know what he’s done and what he’s capable of…I truly believe he’s going wake up people this year! Whether it’s those in our fandom or the country. I have faith and he has faith that God got him this far for reason and I personally can’t wait. Your last statement is what is special about Dji(to me) he’s going to make those better and he will always make the right bball play even sometimes at his own detriment. Exciting times and Can’t wait till he shows everyone. 😀 Always his #1 fan …🫠🫣
 

spiderman

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I'm sure there are many examples, but the 2 guys I think of when I watch Roche constantly moving like that to come off screens and to find space for his shot are Steph Curry and Reggie Miller.

it'll be interesting to see if Mooney's offense allows him to continue to play that way. I can't think of any Spider comp.

if allowed to play that way, his defender has his work cut out for him every night.
 

CarolinaSpider

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I'm sure there are many examples, but the 2 guys I think of when I watch Roche constantly moving like that to come off screens and to find space for his shot are Steph Curry and Reggie Miller.

it'll be interesting to see if Mooney's offense allows him to continue to play that way. I can't think of any Spider comp.

if allowed to play that way, his defender has his work cut out for him every night.
I saw those cuts and quick release and thought JJ Redick
 

spider23

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I was not comparing to any particular player, but watching a bit of NBA playoffs this year was thinking his ability to run full speed and catch an shoot mirrors all a lot of the action you see. Will be very interesting to see how Mooney incorporates him into the offense.
 
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urfan1

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not a big NBA fan, but my limited observation is NBA players create their own shots in addition to good D. Roche can create, can he stop?
 
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