Don't sleep on Roche

[spiderman]

Say what you want about Roche's lackluster defensive ability and his inability to rebound, but ultimately, our team needs a jumpstart, and I'd be willing to give up some more points if that means more for our offense.

Roche's defense is better than I expected coming into the season. he's fine out there. he's not Goose defensively, but he's pretty solid.

I agree with Trap that Roche has to do more to get shots in our offense. I know he's working hard out there, but he's got to be able to back guys off him, despite them knowing he wants the 3. somehow Sherod did it and Roche has much better wheels.

I'd have loved to have seen Roche play with Gilly and Golden. Quinn's a good passer but Golden was great. and he drew more help.

 

[SFspidur]

Roche may have better wheels, but Sherod had the beef to present a bit of an inside game with post-ups if needed.

Roche is pretty one-dimensional, and he or the team needs to figure out ways to add some versatility. Backdoor cuts are a great way to make defenders pay for guarding you too closely up top, but we just haven't seen much of that so far this year.

Feels like the unspoken communication between cutters and passers is just a beat too slow. Hopefully that will come as the guys continue to play together, but we're almost halfway through the season.

 

[spiderman]

Roche may have better wheels, but Sherod had the beef to present a bit of an inside game with post-ups if needed.

true, but I don't think the post up game helped get Sherod open outside.

Roche is pretty one-dimensional, and he or the team needs to figure out ways to add some versatility. Backdoor cuts are a great way to make defenders pay for guarding you too closely up top, but we just haven't seen much of that so far this year.

agreed

Feels like the unspoken communication between cutters and passers is just a beat too slow. Hopefully that will come as the guys continue to play together, but we're almost halfway through the season.

yep
and I think Quinn tries to make the backdoor pass "over the top" too often instead of the bounce that was so effective for Golden.

 

[SFspidur]

true, but I don't think the post up game helped get Sherod open outside.

Yeah, I just meant more generally as far as the versatility in his game...he could (slow-motion) drive if needed, post up guys, and bang down low some. Outside shooting was obviously his specialty, but even on bad knees he could do some other things that meant you couldn't just guard him like glue at the three-point line.

 

[Eight Legger]

It's not that difficult to get a great three-point shooter open to shoot three-pointers. Mooney needs to figure it out.

 

[PhillySpider]

It's not that difficult to get a great three-point shooter open to shoot three-pointers. Mooney needs to figure it out.

I am no Mooney loyalist as all here know, but I will defend him against this. Its actually not easy to get a three point shooter like Roach open threes. Roach is a catch and shoot guy - - he has shown nothing that would lead us to think he is or ever will be a guy who gets and makes threes by running around a slew of screens and rubs and catches the ball coming off the screen while moving away from the basket and uses great footwork etc. to get a shot up (a la Steph) or a guy who is going to get any looks off his own handle and moves etc. As a catch and shoot guy, its not so simple as to "just put in some plays to get him open". Catch and shoot guys get their looks almost 100% from the other aspects of offense working to force help and rotations etc. In the NBA, this almost all done with superstar players in iso and/or pick and roll. Then help is required to stop the superstar and the catch and shoot guys can do what they do - - stand still and more or less and catch it and shoot it. In the NBA, these guys must also be able to defend _and thus the "three and D" moniker. In college, its can be superstars who get catch and shoot guys looks or it can be simply good offense that threatens the rim etc. more. But the only way to get a catch and shoot guy more and better looks is to figure out how to attack the basket better.

We do not have a great scorer who creates these opportunities (and no Tyler is NOT one of those players) and right now the rest of the offense isn't running well enough to create these looks. But in fairness to Moon man, that's when Roach will get more and better look - - when the rest of the offense is operating at a higher level - - which as we know with Moon - - - takes an awfully long time. But its definitely NOT so simple as to add a few plays to get Roach some looks.

 

[VT4700]

It's not that difficult to get a great three-point shooter open to shoot three-pointers. Mooney needs to figure it out.

It's not trying to get him open. It's the minutes. He is playing a lot less than Nick did. If you compare Nick in 2020 to Roche this year, Nick made 3.4 out of 7.8 per 40 minutes. Roche is at 4.1 out of 9.1 per 40 minutes. So, it may look like he is not getting the shots when out there, but it is more about his minutes than shots. But, I agree with those that think he should get more minutes. He is a huge weapon out there.

 

[Eight Legger]

I am no Mooney loyalist as all here know, but I will defend him against this. Its actually not easy to get a three point shooter like Roach open threes. Roach is a catch and shoot guy - - he has shown nothing that would lead us to think he is or ever will be a guy who gets and makes threes by running around a slew of screens and rubs and catches the ball coming off the screen while moving away from the basket and uses great footwork etc. to get a shot up (a la Steph) or a guy who is going to get any looks off his own handle and moves etc. As a catch and shoot guy, its not so simple as to "just put in some plays to get him open". Catch and shoot guys get their looks almost 100% from the other aspects of offense working to force help and rotations etc. In the NBA, this almost all done with superstar players in iso and/or pick and roll. Then help is required to stop the superstar and the catch and shoot guys can do what they do - - stand still and more or less and catch it and shoot it. In the NBA, these guys must also be able to defend _and thus the "three and D" moniker. In college, its can be superstars who get catch and shoot guys looks or it can be simply good offense that threatens the rim etc. more. But the only way to get a catch and shoot guy more and better looks is to figure out how to attack the basket better.

We do not have a great scorer who creates these opportunities (and no Tyler is NOT one of those players) and right now the rest of the offense isn't running well enough to create these looks. But in fairness to Moon man, that's when Roach will get more and better look - - when the rest of the offense is operating at a higher level - - which as we know with Moon - - - takes an awfully long time. But its definitely NOT so simple as to add a few plays to get Roach some looks.

I hear what you are saying, but I will push back a bit. Roche does run off screens a decent amount and takes (and makes) those threes, too. He's not like an Adam Mobley type who was a true stand-and-shoot statue kind of guy. Roche is athletic enough and seems willing to work for his shots. I don't see him just setting up behind the arc waiting for the ball.

He needs to be playing 30+ minutes a game and taking 12-15 shots a game, IMO. Figure out a plan to screen for him and get him those looks, every game.

 

[spiderman]

It's not trying to get him open. It's the minutes. He is playing a lot less than Nick did. If you compare Nick in 2020 to Roche this year, Nick made 3.4 out of 7.8 per 40 minutes. Roche is at 4.1 out of 9.1 per 40 minutes. So, it may look like he is not getting the shots when out there, but it is more about his minutes than shots. But, I agree with those that think he should get more minutes. He is a huge weapon out there.

while he could play with Goose, fact is they're both seen as SGs and they won't play much together. and now we have Randolph fighting for and earning time at the same spot.

 

[VT4700]

Sman, I will say this for about the 50th time because I have never heard a reply that effectively counters it: even if you insist on having positions for them, why wouldn't you play 2 SGs together with a PG sometimes? We play against 3 guard lineups a lot. We play 3 guards a lot, both in the past and present.

Why do you expect us to be in the minority and go strictly G, G, F, F, C? Goose and Roche average over 48 minutes combined, so obviously they have already played together a good amount and will continue to do so. They even started together one game when Grace was out. I don't get why you stay on this SG stuff when we have had years where we started 2 SGs with a PG. Jacob, Wojcik, and Goose started and played a lot together. Another year, we started 4 guards with Khwan, Jacob, Buck, and Nick. Another year it was 3 or 4 of ShawnDre, Khwan, JJ, Nick, and Buck playing a lot together. Another year Brothers, Ced, and Kendall played a lot together. I just can't figure out why you are so surprised or concerned or whatever it is if and when Nelson, Goose, and Roche play together.

 

[VT4700]

Yikes, EL. 12-15 a game? I want him getting more shots as well, but he only averaged 9 threes a game at The Citadel.

 

[spiderman]

VT, when Burton is on the floor with Quinn and Grace, or Grace and Bigelow, or Quinn and Bigelow ... then I call Burton the 3. in those times, we need a PG (Nelson) and a shooting guard.

there are less often times when Burton is the 4. when that happens, certainly we can play 2 SG types out of Goose, Roche and Randolph. heck, we can play all 3 with Goose as the 1 if we're giving Nelson a break.

Goose and Roche clearly do play some together ... either when Burton is out for a couple minutes or when Nelson is out. I'm just saying we don't play Goose and Roche together all that often because Burton is usually the 3 and Nelson is getting 30 mpg at the 1. when Dji was healthy he got the other available minutes at the 1.

 

[ur2K]

Roche is pretty one-dimensional, and he or the team needs to figure out ways to add some versatility. Backdoor cuts are a great way to make defenders pay for guarding you too closely up top, but we just haven't seen much of that so far this

Did this finally tonight. Also had a 3 off a dribble handoff/screen from MFG. His shot is so pure, he needs more of them.

 

[Eight Legger]

Total game-changer if you give him an inch, as we saw tonight. Might have been a much more comfortable game if he had 5-8 more three-attempts.

 

[spider fan]

Agree Roche needs more time and shots. Has a quick release whether he is shooting or passing. Doesn't jack up shots if he doesn't have clear chance of sinking them. Definitely a fun time when Roche is put into the game.

 

[coach fezz]

I take "onedimension" 45% 3point shooter ALL THE TIME. Please protect him from strength coach who will say you need bigger bieceps and bench press. someplayers have a hard time getting ball to the shooter some know how to so player rotation important. you all see how patterns work working ball through high post then opposite corner is natural for someplayers but some always think small game , one sided let me dribbledribble. The Shooter is a beautiful transfer makes me happy

 

[MountainSpider]

Why did he only get 18 minutes last night? Roche is averaging less than 21 minutes a game. If he was given just 8 more minutes a game, how many of the 5 games we lost by 1-4 points could have been turned around? The minutes should be easy to find -- why do we need both Quinn and Grace on the floor at the same time to start the game?

 

[flyder19]

Why did he only get 18 minutes last night? Roche is averaging less than 21 minutes a game. If he was given just 8 more minutes a game, how many of the 5 games we lost by 1-4 points could have been turned around? The minutes should be easy to find -- why do we need both Quinn and Grace on the floor at the same time to start the game?

Right, that only makes Grace a subpar at best 3 point shooter and passing up top with Quinn taking the reps down low. Grace isn’t great enough of a defender to justify that. If I was Mooney, I’d start Roche, see how it goes with Quinn there or Grace and then quickly make subs if need be. In Mooney’s mind im sure it’s hard to justify not starting either Quinn or Grace, Quinn for the size, Grace for the leadership. I like the dynamic of switching Quinn and Grace out for one another as we used to to with Golden and Grace before Mooney got his bright two big men idea. They’re different bigs with different skill sets and I think that would throw teams off

 

[Eight Legger]

Why did he only get 18 minutes last night? Roche is averaging less than 21 minutes a game. If he was given just 8 more minutes a game, how many of the 5 games we lost by 1-4 points could have been turned around? The minutes should be easy to find -- why do we need both Quinn and Grace on the floor at the same time to start the game?

Excellent questions. There have been several games this year already during which he's knocked in threes on back-to-back possessions, or three in four or five minutes or so, and it really gave us a huge advantage -- both on the scoreboard and also just emotionally. He needs more minutes, now.

 

[SpiderRick]

We haven't had a discussion like this since TJ Cline, when we were begging Moon man to start him (and the rest is history)

 

[coach fezz]

We haven't had a discussion like this since TJ Cline, when we were begging Moon man to start him (and the rest is history)

spiderrick i remember those days very well

 

[flyder19]

spiderrick i remember those days very well

We haven't had a discussion like this since TJ Cline, when we were begging Moon man to start him (and the rest is history)

This time, we have a Sophomore coming off of a season as the best 3pt shooting Freshman in the nation, and Mooney keeps him riding the bench

 

[Eight Legger]

Roche is the 20th best three-point shooter in the nation right now by percentage (though for some reason, he does not appear in the official NCAA stats, despite having more attempts than a few others on that list..)

 

[SFspidur]

Roche is the 20th best three-point shooter in the nation right now by percentage (though for some reason, he does not appear in the official NCAA stats, despite having more attempts than a few others on that list..)

You need to average 2.5 makes per game to qualify for the NCAA list. Roche is at 2.13.

 

[urmite]

You need to average 2.5 makes per game to qualify for the NCAA list. Roche is at 2.13.

So Mooney is keeping him off the list to hide him from opponent scouting reports?

 

[Eight Legger]

You need to average 2.5 makes per game to qualify for the NCAA list. Roche is at 2.13.

This is probably not something Mooney would want to list on his coaching resume.

"Had a top three-point shooter nationally, but failed to play him enough to qualify."

 

[SpiderK]

It’s unbelievable Roche isn’t taking 10 shots a game. Almost guaranteed 15 points. However we have Grace and Nelson missing from everywhere on the floor.

 

[SFspidur]

There's been criticism that the threshold to qualify is too high. There are only 104 guys in D-I that currently meet it. Last year there were 97 on the list at the end of the season. Sherod just barely made it in 2019–20 when he averaged 2.52 makes and ranked 10th out of 90 at 43.8%.

So Sam Griffin of Tulsa gets on this season's list at #104 with a 33.6% rate but guys like Roche aren't on there.

 

[Eight Legger]

It's weird to me that it's based on makes and not shots attempted.

 

[fan2011]

It's weird to me that it's based on makes and not shots attempted.

Basing it on makes means you need fewer shot attempts to make the list if you shoot at a higher percentage. Still a weird list.

 

[VT4700]

There's been criticism that the threshold to qualify is too high. There are only 104 guys in D-I that currently meet it. Last year there were 97 on the list at the end of the season. Sherod just barely made it in 2019–20 when he averaged 2.52 makes and ranked 10th out of 90 at 43.8%.

So Sam Griffin of Tulsa gets on this season's list at #104 with a 33.6% rate but guys like Roche aren't on there.

It is way too high. I think if you make close to 50 3s a year, that's pretty solid, and more than enough to show a relevant shooting percentage, so put it around 1.5 a game.

 

[SFspidur]

Counting by makes rewards the better shooters since they can qualify with fewer attempts.

 

[Eight Legger]

Except that it doesn't do that, as evidenced by Roche not being on the list despite having taken and made a statistically relevant number of threes.

 

[SFspidur]

Except that it doesn't do that, as evidenced by Roche not being on the list despite having taken and made a statistically relevant number of threes.

Well, it's mathematically indisputable that the method rewards better shooters. The problem isn't that they use makes as the criterion, it's that the makes threshold is arguably too high.

A 50% shooter only needs 5 attempts per game to make it under the current rules. A 25% shooter would need 10 attempts per game and so is unlikely to qualify.

 

[SFspidur]

For what it's worth, if you dropped the makes threshold to 2.0, you'd have about 300 guys qualified. If you drop it to 1.5, it goes up to about 600.

 

[spiderman]

I just looked up the ranking. #3 on the list is Luke Frampton, now at Western Kentucky formerly at Davidson. we offered that kid back in 2016!

 

[urmite]

Does KenPom only require 2 attempts per game? And is Roche #96?

 

[Eight Legger]

Well, it's mathematically indisputable that the method rewards better shooters. The problem isn't that they use makes as the criterion, it's that the makes threshold is arguably too high.

A 50% shooter only needs 5 attempts per game to make it under the current rules. A 25% shooter would need 10 attempts per game and so is unlikely to qualify.

I think we're saying something pretty similar. The best shooters are going to be rewarded regardless. I would argue that this format "rewards" worse shooters (pecentage-wise) by including more of them on the list of "best" three-point shooters. If you make 3 of 10 every night, you're on the list. If you make 2 of 5, you're not. Almost half the guys on this current list are shooting below 40% from three. I don't think that really gives you the best sense of who the truly elite three-point shooters in the nation are.

I agree that the threshold is too high but I would also prefer the criteria to be attempts. In baseball, you qualify for the batting title based upon your total number of plate appearances, not your total number of hits. Not sure why the NCAA doesn't take the same approach here.

The idea should be to spotlight guys who are playing a decent amount AND making a really high percentage of threes. You don't want to make Aidan Noyes the three-point percentage champ when he goes 3 for 4 on the year, but you don't want to keep a guy like Roche out of the mix when he's taking and making a good amount.

(Unrelated buy somewhat related: VCU's "stud" three-point transfer Shriver from that bastion of college basketball, Hartford, is currently shooting below 29% on the season from three after arriving as a 41% shooter from out there. Oops!)

 

[SpiderK]

Roche does a hell of a job when he is in. Especially since we do nothing to help get him open. If a Nick Sherod or Roche type player could get open on their own and shoot 50% from 3 they would already be in the NBA. These kids need help getting open, and if you get them open they often reward you for it. Roche gets himself open on the wings and in the corner, but Nelson can’t see him and just runs into a crowd in the lane and turns the ball over. Whoever the 5’10” guard is that is driving the lane must kick the ball out to Roche or Burton. Brothers, Sherod and Roche are three of the best stationary 3 point shooters to ever play college basketball and so far we have waisted them.

 

[VT4700]

Well, it's mathematically indisputable that the method rewards better shooters. The problem isn't that they use makes as the criterion, it's that the makes threshold is arguably too high.

A 50% shooter only needs 5 attempts per game to make it under the current rules. A 25% shooter would need 10 attempts per game and so is unlikely to qualify.

50%??? Geez. Tyler is averaging 6 three attempts a game, is making them at a 38% clip, but doesn't even qualify because he is not at 2.5 makes a game. That is ridiculous.