Don't sleep on Roche

spider fan

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The Citadel got him in shape for those moves - thanks! Now ESPN needs to update their stat page to show him in a Spider uniform!
 

SpiderTrap

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I see Roche as a key piece this year, but see him maybe getting 15-20 minutes at most. I think his time to shine as a Spider comes the following season - when Burton, Goose, and I believe Crabtree are gone. I think this year - those guys play ahead of him to start. BUT - I could see some games where Roche comes off the bench, hits like 4-5 threes and lights it up. But then I see other games where he plays 9 minutes, takes 1 shot and we don't hear from him.
 
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spiderman

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But then I see other games where he plays 9 minutes, takes 1 shot and we don't hear from him.
and that to me would be a mistake. you don't sit a 40% 3 point shooter on high volume just because he missed his first couple of shots.

I need to see him defensively, but I have a strong feeling that Roche's combination of offense and defense is greater than one of our presumed starting alternatives whether that's Goose at a guard sport, or Grace/Bigelow at a forward spot.
 

SpiderTrap

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My starting lineup expectation to start the year would be the following. Not saying this is our best line-up, but this is just what I feel - in my opinion, will be what Mooney and staff put out there to start the year.

Grace
Burton
Goose
Nelson
Crabtree/Bigelow.

The last spot is a toss up. I think Bigelow is the better player, but I could see Crabtree starting and then maybe this lineup switches a few games in. But I think Grace, Burton, Goose, and Nelson are a pretty solid bet to start at the beginning of the year.
 

LongTimeSpiderFan

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I see Roche as a key piece this year, but see him maybe getting 15-20 minutes at most. I think his time to shine as a Spider comes the following season - when Burton, Goose, and I believe Crabtree are gone. I think this year - those guys play ahead of him to start. BUT - I could see some games where Roche comes off the bench, hits like 4-5 threes and lights it up. But then I see other games where he plays 9 minutes, takes 1 shot and we don't hear from him.
I see him as a key piece but don't see him getting less than 20 minutes. Sight unseen really but he may be the best shooter we have whi h means he plays alot
 

LongTimeSpiderFan

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My starting lineup expectation to start the year would be the following. Not saying this is our best line-up, but this is just what I feel - in my opinion, will be what Mooney and staff put out there to start the year.

Grace
Burton
Goose
Nelson
Crabtree/Bigelow.

The last spot is a toss up. I think Bigelow is the better player, but I could see Crabtree starting and then maybe this lineup switches a few games in. But I think Grace, Burton, Goose, and Nelson are a pretty solid bet to start at the beginning of the year.
Trap, Quinn and Burton start... Figure out the other three starters but Quinn is key
 

SpiderTrap

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I agree Quinn is key - but I think Mooney always favors the upperclassmen - and I think Grace has shown he can play, and I think Mooney will give him every opportunity at beginning of the year to be the starter.
 
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I agree Quinn is key - but I think Mooney always favors the upperclassmen - and I think Grace has shown he can play, and I think Mooney will give him every opportunity at beginning of the year to be the starter.

Mooney doesn't always favor the upperclassmen. He always favors the players he thinks are best, which is what he should do. That is why Gilyard started early and Friendshuh never started. Burton started early. Buckingham started early. T.J. Cline started early. Golden started early.

Kwesi Abakah, Jordan Madrid-Andrews, Friendshuh, Sal, and Grace are all recent examples of big men in their fourth year that did not start for Mooney. They didn't start because they weren't good enough.

I don't know how anyone can seriously entertain the idea that a 7' player who was second-team all Patriot averaging 14.7 pts 7.4 rebounds is going to sit just because he is in his fourth year of college while Matt Grace is in year five (but still has less playing time/points/rebounds). If Grace starts, it will be next to Quinn, not in place of him.
 

SpiderTrap

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Mooney doesn't always favor the upperclassmen. He always favors the players he thinks are best, which is what he should do. That is why Gilyard started early and Friendshuh never started. Burton started early. Buckingham started early. T.J. Cline started early. Golden started early.

Kwesi Abakah, Jordan Madrid-Andrews, Friendshuh, Sal, and Grace are all recent examples of big men in their fourth year that did not start for Mooney. They didn't start because they weren't good enough.

I don't know how anyone can seriously entertain the idea that a 7' player who was second-team all Patriot averaging 14.7 pts 7.4 rebounds is going to sit just because he is in his fourth year of college while Matt Grace is in year five (but still has less playing time/points/rebounds). If Grace starts, it will be next to Quinn, not in place of him.
Gilyard, Burton, Buckingham, Cline, and Golden after his frosh year had no one else really competing with them for time.

Grace has shown he can play. He practically got us to the NCAA tourney with his play down the stretch. And I think to begin the year - he will start and be given the opportunity to be the starter. If he doesn't play well and Quinn takes over - then Mooney will do that, but I think Mooney favors upperclassmen, and especially those who know his system and what we are trying to do.
 
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Gilyard, Burton, Buckingham, Cline, and Golden after his frosh year had no one else really competing with them for time.

Grace has shown he can play. He practically got us to the NCAA tourney with his play down the stretch. And I think to begin the year - he will start and be given the opportunity to be the starter. If he doesn't play well and Quinn takes over - then Mooney will do that, but I think Mooney favors upperclassmen, and especially those who know his system and what we are trying to do.

Yes they did have competition. But they were better than the upperclassmen, so they started. 2017 Roster

If Quinn (14.7ppg 7.4rpg, 4.0apg is better is better than Grace(4.1ppg 2.4rpg, 1.0apg), he will start over him. It is obvious he is better.
 

GKiller

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Agree w mountain that grace more likely to start w Quinn not in replace of. Now Mooney did play big lineup down stretch last year that worked & Grace was actually used defensively over Golden late. I’m just leaning Nelson goose Burton Bigelow Quinn. W Grace eating up plenty of minutes at C & forward but it will work itself out.
 
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Yes they did have competition. But they were better than the upperclassmen, so they started. 2017 Roster

If Quinn (14.7ppg 7.4rpg, 4.0apg is better is better than Grace(4.1ppg 2.4rpg, 1.0apg), he will start over him. It is obvious he is better.
I don't think it is obvious JUST because of stats, Grace was playing behind Golden so he wasn't going to get that many minutes.

But, watching Grace for years, and then Quinn on tape, it seems that Quinn is a better option. I'll be shocked if Quinn isn't starting (and getting major minutes) from Day 1.
 
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SpiderTrap

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Its not obvious Quinn is better at this time. Quinn put up those numbers against lesser competition. Unless your saying the Ivy League is just as good as the A10.

I am not saying Quinn can't put up good numbers in the A10 - but to say he is better because his Ivy League numbers are better than Grace A10 numbers - thats apples to oranges.
 

8legs1dream

Team Manager
Its not obvious Quinn is better at this time. Quinn put up those numbers against lesser competition. Unless your saying the Ivy League is just as good as the A10.

I am not saying Quinn can't put up good numbers in the A10 - but to say he is better because his Ivy League numbers are better than Grace A10 numbers - thats apples to oranges.

Not only that but he was a starter getting big time minutes while Matt was mainly backing up Grant.
 

spiderman

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Agreed - not saying Grace is an All-A10 player, but I bet if you gave him 25-30 minutes a night - his numbers increase.
well yeah, if you double anyone's minutes their numbers increase.

his numbers per 40 minutes are still no where near Quinn's.
Quinn's just bigger and better.
 
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You guys are sleeping on Roche so much you aren't even talking about him anymore.

I may be missing important insider knowledge, but I haven't heard anything that makes me question my projected starting lineup of Nelson/Gustavson/Roche/Burton/Quinn. Most teams will have a hard time stopping Roche/Burton/Quinn on the offensive side. Grace and Bigelow as primary subs. A healthy Bailey or Crabtree could be capable of disrupting the top 7.
 

VT4700

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Gilyard, Burton, Buckingham, Cline, and Golden after his frosh year had no one else really competing with them for time.

Grace has shown he can play. He practically got us to the NCAA tourney with his play down the stretch. And I think to begin the year - he will start and be given the opportunity to be the starter. If he doesn't play well and Quinn takes over - then Mooney will do that, but I think Mooney favors upperclassmen, and especially those who know his system and what we are trying to do.
Mooney is no different than any other coach with playing upperclassmen. The best players play. Like most schools, we have had upperclassmen play a lot, play some, play a little, and play pretty much none.
 

SpiderTrap

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Well - even without upper classment bias, which I think exists - I think Grace might be just as good as Quinn. I think Quinn is good, no question - but I think some might be understating Grace and possibly the confidence he gained from last seasons run.
 
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LongTimeSpiderFan

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You guys are sleeping on Roche so much you aren't even talking about him anymore.

I may be missing important insider knowledge, but I haven't heard anything that makes me question my projected starting lineup of Nelson/Gustavson/Roche/Burton/Quinn. Most teams will have a hard time stopping Roche/Burton/Quinn on the offensive side. Grace and Bigelow as primary subs. A healthy Bailey or Crabtree could be capable of disrupting the top 7.
I'm OK with that lineup you mentioned but it is rather smallish. I think Burtons natural position is 3 (OK ok he can play 4 too) and Roche is a two from everything I see. Grace or Bigelow could start alongside Quinn.
I'm going w Nelson, Roche, Bigelow, Burton and Quinn... sorry Goose, but no matter how good of a defensive player you are, the shooting of Roche may be of the highest importance if we're going to place in the upper tier.
 
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spider23

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You guys are sleeping on Roche so much you aren't even talking about him anymore.

I may be missing important insider knowledge, but I haven't heard anything that makes me question my projected starting lineup of Nelson/Gustavson/Roche/Burton/Quinn. Most teams will have a hard time stopping Roche/Burton/Quinn on the offensive side. Grace and Bigelow as primary subs. A healthy Bailey or Crabtree could be capable of disrupting the top 7.
Roche and Quinn on frontline together, I worry about defense. I don't think either of them are bad, but not sure either is above average either, which leaves Burton at risk too. I didn't watch the whole tape, but sman posted a link to a full game of Bigelow vs Roche, and I think came away quite impressed with Bigelow's ability to impact the game in many areas vs just shooting with Roche. Now sman can go ahead and correct me b/c that is just my memory of his recap from about 6 weeks ago and surely not quite accurate.

I do think we have to consider size, speed, defense too on some of these units. But like EL mentions, Roche is a very proven shooter and should get good chunks of time.

I think a Burton/Bigelow forward combo is going to be very good in a bunch of facets of the game.
 

VT4700

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This is more about Quinn than Grace with me. I have always liked what Grace brings, well before many others did. I just think Quinn is a little better, and has more size, and will be very surprised if he doesn't start and play big minutes. Not only do we have one of the few 7-footers in college basketball, we have one with a lot of talent.
 
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spiderman

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I'm going w Nelson, Roche, Bigelow, Burton and Quinn... sorry Goose, but no matter how good of a defensive player you are, the shooting of Roche may be of the highest importance if we're going to place in the upper tier.
I'm not sure what Mooney will do ... but this it the lineup I'm most excited about pending actually seeing the new guys in Spider uniforms. it has the most shooting and rebounding for sure. TBD on the defense.
I haven't liked Bigelow's defense in the little clips from practice this summer! no idea about Roche's defense but if he works as hard on defense as he does on offense he'll be fine. Quinn's a worker too.
 

SpiderTrap

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I think Roche will be a key piece, but he is a 2 for sure. And right now - I think you got Goose and Crabtree ahead of him. I see Roche this season being a key shooter off the bench - a 3 point specialist. Someone who can catch fire and score 15 points in 15 minutes on 5-7 shooting from deep. But I think there will also be games he goes 0-2 and plays 9 minutes. But he will be a weapon off the bench we have not had lately - and that is instant scoring, which we will need. And next season - with no Goose, no Burton, no Crabtree - he steps into a much bigger role.
 
Oct 19, 2015
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I think Roche will be a key piece, but he is a 2 for sure. And right now - I think you got Goose and Crabtree ahead of him. I see Roche this season being a key shooter off the bench - a 3 point specialist. Someone who can catch fire and score 15 points in 15 minutes on 5-7 shooting from deep. But I think there will also be games he goes 0-2 and plays 9 minutes. But he will be a weapon off the bench we have not had lately - and that is instant scoring, which we will need. And next season - with no Goose, no Burton, no Crabtree - he steps into a much bigger role.
Third in line at the 2! Go back and read the first post in this thread :)
 
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SpiderGuy

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Gilyard, Burton, Buckingham, Cline, and Golden after his frosh year had no one else really competing with them for time.

Grace has shown he can play. He practically got us to the NCAA tourney with his play down the stretch. And I think to begin the year - he will start and be given the opportunity to be the starter. If he doesn't play well and Quinn takes over - then Mooney will do that, but I think Mooney favors upperclassmen, and especially those who know his system and what we are trying to do.
My thinking is both Grace & Quinn start.
 

97spiderfan

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I think Roche will be a key piece, but he is a 2 for sure. And right now - I think you got Goose and Crabtree ahead of him. I see Roche this season being a key shooter off the bench - a 3 point specialist. Someone who can catch fire and score 15 points in 15 minutes on 5-7 shooting from deep. But I think there will also be games he goes 0-2 and plays 9 minutes. But he will be a weapon off the bench we have not had lately - and that is instant scoring, which we will need. And next season - with no Goose, no Burton, no Crabtree - he steps into a much bigger role.
Damn, Trap you go on a bender this weekend or something?. Quinn, an-all Patriot League player, who fits Mooney's system perfectly isn't starting and Roche, one of the leading 3 point shot makers in the country last year is behind Crabtree, who averaged a whole 2 points for us last year. Come on man, I know you like to play the role of Mooney and UR doing the absolutely dumbest shit imaginable (which often times has been spot on), but this is a bridge too far even for Mooney.
 

97spiderfan

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This is more about Quinn than Grace with me. I have always liked what Grace brings, well before many others didn't. I just think Quinn is a little better, and has more size, and will be very surprised if he doesn't start and play big minutes. Not only do we have one of the few 7-footers in college basketball, we have one with a lot of talent.
Crap and now I have to agree with 4700. Grace gave us some quality minutes last year and made some really clutch shots, but if Grace would have played in Patriot League would he have been 2nd team all Patriot League.

I love that we have both Quinn and Grace, two quality bigs, but Quinn didn't come here with multiple BCS offers to back up Matt Grace.
 

spider23

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OK, 97 - at least I got one laugh in today from your response to Trap. And I am agreeing more with 4700 - all is good in the offseason following an NCAA and Mooney putting in work on the portal. We shall see how this all plays out, but at least we are going into the season with a lot of pieces, and not the glaring roster holes and reaches of the past. Hopefully guys can establish solid, winning roles in the first quarter of the season.
 
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RichmondNative

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he started 10 of 31 games as a senior. and he had started 17 games as a sophomore.
Definitely did not remember Julius starting as sophomore. Was definitely more hype on the 2 incoming freshman, Buck and Nick, who I suppose Mooney didn’t want to start right out of the gate. Seems like Julius started due to a lack of options versus being more talented.
 

RichmondNative

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I'm going w Nelson, Roche, Bigelow, Burton and Quinn...
3 transfers starting at the beginning of the year seems very unlikely. The uncertainty is what is going to make this year fun - there is going to be a true battle for minutes. Also have no idea how these individuals will become a team. You know that Mooney is going to expect a specific flow on offense so the question is who will be able to provide it.

I also think the pressure is off, so Mooney isn’t going to feel any sense of urgency. I really think he has a 2 year plan. Granted he only has one year with Burton most likely.
 

VT4700

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he started 10 of 31 games as a senior. and he had started 17 games as a sophomore.
Yep, the JJ example ruins any kind of Mooney always favors the upperclassmen talk. As a senior, JJ did not start the first few games that year, and only started after Nick got hurt. However, 10 games later, he lost his starting spot to true freshman Goose, who started the final 18 games that year.
 

LongTimeSpiderFan

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3 transfers starting at the beginning of the year seems very unlikely. The uncertainty is what is going to make this year fun - there is going to be a true battle for minutes. Also have no idea how these individuals will become a team. You know that Mooney is going to expect a specific flow on offense so the question is who will be able to provide it.

I also think the pressure is off, so Mooney isn’t going to feel any sense of urgency. I really think he has a 2 year plan. Granted he only has one year with Burton most likely.
I get what you're saying, but these are quality transfers (seemingly so)... who else is there? unproven freshmen or guys that played back up for us last year? Or Goose, who will probably get an opportunity to prove he can do it on the offensive end of the court, but I think that'll be a failed experiment.
Keep recruiting quality high schoolers and add missing pieces via portal... I think the portal is the best thing that could have happened for coach.
 
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MrTbone

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Yes they did have competition. But they were better than the upperclassmen, so they started. 2017 Roster

If Quinn (14.7ppg 7.4rpg, 4.0apg is better is better than Grace(4.1ppg 2.4rpg, 1.0apg), he will start over him. It is obvious he is better.
Better than Kwesi isn’t a tough hill to climb.

Four scholarship upperclasdmen on that roster, three of whom played starter/meaningful minutes. While I agree with your premise about Quinn I’m pretty sure pointing to that 2017 roster isn’t a great example of young guys beating out good older guys.
 

MrTbone

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I can't think of one example where Mooney favored a senior or super-senior when that senior wasn't already a starter when he was younger.
Greg robbins comes to mind, but I generally agree with your sentiment.
 

PhillySpider

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3 transfers starting at the beginning of the year seems very unlikely. The uncertainty is what is going to make this year fun - there is going to be a true battle for minutes. Also have no idea how these individuals will become a team. You know that Mooney is going to expect a specific flow on offense so the question is who will be able to provide it.

I also think the pressure is off, so Mooney isn’t going to feel any sense of urgency. I really think he has a 2 year plan. Granted he only has one year with Burton most likely.
Not sure i agree that fact that they are transfers keeps them from starting. Fact is that we we very well may need to start 3 guys who haven't played a lot for UR because that's really all we have. Not sure I see the advantage of starting guys with more PRACTICE experience in the system over new to the system guys who have more GAME experience overall. Either way, we are inexperienced at those spots. If I am Mooney, I am starting the guys I think will be the best ones come game 30 and not who might be the best on opening night. This group, regardless of who makes it up, needs time to grow. I am rolling with the highest upside guys if I am CM. I don't know who they are right now, but I have thoughts and he should already have a pretty good idea,
 
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