Holy Toledo ! - 11/30 Game Thread ...

[SpiderGuy]

I agree on your first couple of points, but rebounding or 2nd chance points was not an issue. They only had 9 offensive rebounds. Nearly 300 teams average 9 offensive rebounds. The issue was we missed shots, and we made it way too easy for them to make shots.

I think the commentator said they had 11 points on second chances in first half alone. That’s a bunch. Not sure of second half number. We need to box out better and do better job on defensive boards at rebounding.

Agree that we missed too many shots.

 

[spider23]

In addition, it's pretty obvious he did not work on ball handling nearly enough this offseason. I had some concern in the pre-season interviews where he was asked what he worked on or what he tried to improve and his responses were something along the lines of "my leadership."

I hear you, I have had same thougth on his ballhandling. BUT, being that close and getting so much feedback from the NBA camps, I have to believe he worked hard on this, had a pro trainer working with him on it. To be that close to the NBA he had to. Unfortunately, some guys just have certain attributes and skills that don't come as natural as others. I would see videos of John Lucas working with all these centers in the NBA shooting thousands of FT's, and yet still shooting 50% in the games. One thing about Burton, is he did lose a lot of time right before practice started with the knee surgery, so that may have impacted his ability to work on some things.

 

[SpiderTrap]

Lets not forget with Burton - he has less help this year. Last year - he was able to play off Gilyard and Grant. They could have the ball, either in high post or coming off ball screen and get him into positions where he was effective. This could either be a drive and kick and shoot, or simply drive and kick and Burton's defender has to close out on him and this gives him a clear advantage to drive to the hoop. This year- that help is all but gone.

Quinn has not been very effective, and Nelson is still learning. So many times - Burton is having to create all on his own - something he has never done before. I think part of this is other players and lack of experience and skill, but also coaches may need to work and design plays specifically for Burton to get him to his favorite spots, and get him an advantage. But then again - that is something we have never had to do before as well from a coaching standpoint. We have always relied on PG's like Gilyard, Anderson, Anthony, etc to create plays when needed as well as big guys like Geriot, Cline, Golden, Harper, etc. We have never had our true best player on the wing without support in those two positions.

 

[VT4700]

Now I see why last night hurt so much. We have a good team again. Let them play as competitors, determined to win at all costs like they did at the end of last season, despite the damn coach. Literally having no coach on the sidelines would be better than the one we have. He sucks the life out of them. He's not even mediocre, he's well below average and we pay him over a million ****ing dollars.

Despite our lousy ass coach, the rest of the season looks like 15-2 plus 7 toss-ups. If we hadn't blown last night and lost ALL of our close games, we woukd actually be alright. Win 2 of those 4, and we're looking at 23.5 - 7.5 and in a pretty good place.

Sucks that he can't keep our season alive into December.

LOL. Okay.

 

[plydogg]

Sorry. It just bothers me when a parent or parents of a player criticize other players on the team. Always has, always will. I just don't think there is ever a time or place for it and it has happened on here multiple times. I happened to see a tweet, it bothered me, and I mentioned it. No worries if you disagree, but since you said you have no idea why I might have posted what I did, I wanted to give you the reason.

How about when someone who doesn’t know you or your family continually criticizes your son just to try to get a rise out of you. Trying to put someone else down by insulting their kid because they said something you don’t agree with? That’s crazy. The act is getting old.

 

[VT4700]

Agree with many of your points. Especially on Burton, or maybe that is one of the biggest areas of concern so far. Too much forcing, trying to draw the foul, and taking very very high degree of difficulty shots. Mooney has to pull him in the video room and simplify things for him. He can get his points in a multitude of ways, but going iso and trying to shoot over tight defense is very low on the list.
Nelson - I do think he has the ability to get in the lane - or the FT line and hit pull ups. And he has shown some very good finishing ability at the rim early. BUT, maybe he had a little too much success early and he looks to try to drive it in there too much now. I think he just needs to focus on making the easy plays, handling the balls and running the offense. Liking Randolph too. He has been a pleasant surprise. Really think the limited minutes and being so engaged last year is paying off. He comes in the game, is aggressive and confident, but not overly eager. I think he has very good mental make up to be a good contributor. Only downside I see is he seems a bit of a tweener between a guard and forward with size, ballhandling skill - but hey this is position less basketball right?

I think Tyler and Nelson both tried to do too much last night because we were losing by double figures, and out of sync on offense. Tyler because he is the leader who can carry us and Nelson because he is the PG. We kept getting farther behind and they both forced some things. They just need to play their games and not force the issue, even when things are not going well.

I agree about Randolph and like what he brings. Not his best game last night, but it happens. And, unfortunately, it happened to everyone not named Goose or Roche last night. And, and as long as you have a PG out there, I don't care what positions you call other guys. If you can play, you play, right?

I'm ready for 30+ minutes for Roche. Not ready to give up on Quinn and still think he can help us, but it might be time for Grace when healthy to start instead of Quinn. It sure does look like we have a clear top 6 with Nelson, Goose, Roche, Bigelow, Tyler, and Grace.

 

[VT4700]

I think the commentator said they had 11 points on second chances in first half alone. That’s a bunch. Not sure of second half number. We need to box out better and do better job on defensive boards at rebounding.

Agree that we missed too many shots.

I hear you, but they got 9 offensive rebounds last night, which about 300 teams average. So, it should not be unexpected or looked at as trouble if a team gets 9 offensive rebounds and gets some 2nd chance points against us.

 

[Spider B]

Maybe Quinn can work with TJ or his mom this summer. Will say it again, but he needs to be on the block, dribble less, and put the ball up quicker. He's 7 ft. Use his size on the block.

 

[Eight Legger]

Burton would benefit from Roche shooting more threes. If the defense knows we have a 50% three-point shooter who's going to put it up 10-12 times a game from out there, they will have to do something about it, and that opens things up inside a bit more for Burton to go to work.

 

[VT4700]

Burton would benefit from Roche shooting more threes. If the defense knows we have a 50% three-point shooter who's going to put it up 10-12 times a game from out there, they will have to do something about it, and that opens things up inside a bit more for Burton to go to work.

The whole team would benefit. Roche needs 30+ minutes a game and I don't care if he comes out and misses his first 3 or 4 shots. That just means he will probably make 5 of his next 8.

 

[SpiderTrap]

Burton would benefit from Roche shooting more threes. If the defense knows we have a 50% three-point shooter who's going to put it up 10-12 times a game from out there, they will have to do something about it, and that opens things up inside a bit more for Burton to go to work.

Agreed - but Roche is really our only shooter right now. We need more than one consistent shooter to help Burton out. Roche is good, but I think teams would be willing to give him his looks and take the risk of Roche going off rather than Burton. Not sure Roche has enough firepower to score 20+ and carry us to a win. Now if Bigelow and Nelson or Grace can be dangerous shooters - that is another story, now they can't focus on one guy over the other.

 

[spiderman]

Worth nothing at all, but here are my thoughts:

• Burton did a pretty solid job on the defensive boards, but was otherwise atrocious. His shot selection was abysmal, and unfortunately is a continuation of what I've seen this year. Contested, pull-up, off-balance 19 footers are not good shots ever. Even when they go in. And he's shooting about 5 of those a game. In addition, it's pretty obvious he did not work on ball handling nearly enough this offseason. I had some concern in the pre-season interviews where he was asked what he worked on or what he tried to improve and his responses were something along the lines of "my leadership." This is not to say I think he didn't work this offseason--I'm sure he did--but the glaring hole in his game is his ballhandling and it has not improved. He struggles to cross guys over and beat guys 1v1, which leads to the bad 19 footers. And when he backs guys down or turns his back, he's dribbling so far from his body that he loses it or gets it knocked away. It's really bad.
• Dji was way more aggressive, which I loved. He missed about 5 contested layups, which he's gonna have to make. But he was strong defensively and had several of our best hustle plays yesterday.
• Goose was good offensively, but I don't think he was good defensively at all. He got beat repeatedly, with the worst one being the one on the baseline with the shot clock at two and he simply let the guy pivot around him for a layup.
• I agree with everything folks are saying about Roche. He needs 10-12 shots a game, and his defense is decent enough to keep him out there to get it.
• Quinn was the worst one on the court. He does have good vision and is a willing passer, but he's simply going to have to toughen up. He can't keep getting the ball just taken from him, or missing layups from right in front of the rim. He didn't deserve to be out there after a while, and it really hurt us not having a big dude in the middle on defense.
• Nelson had a very tough game. Which is fine--he's a freshman point guard, and it's not going to be all rainbows and puppies. Keep battling, but take it easy on the drives in traffic. Gilyard, Kendall Anthony, Shawndre all had this issue too when they were underclassmen. Drives that they could get away with in HS don't work in college. They all figured it out, and Nelson will too.
• I like Randolph's edge, and I like his jumper. Looks clean. Ballhandling a little less so.
• Bigelow was good--got the short end of some bad calls yesterday for sure. But he definitely battles.

all of this ^^^. sums up last night.

Gilly and Grant were all-time greats (yes Grant, despite some criticism he got on this board). the replacements will be good but it's a drastic drop off right now.

 

[VT4700]

all of this ^^^. sums up last night.

Gilly and Grant were all-time greats (yes Grant, despite some criticism he got on this board). the replacements will be good but it's a drastic drop off right now.

Good point, and the drop off is that much more dramatic without Grace right now. I look for a better offensive flow when he gets back.

 

[Long Island Spiders]

all of this ^^^. sums up last night.

Gilly and Grant were all-time greats (yes Grant, despite some criticism he got on this board). the replacements will be good but it's a drastic drop off right now.

The only thing I took exception with is Goose wasn’t to blame on that one baseline drive. Nelson stopped playing defense on the play before goose tried to make up for it.

 

[spiderman]

The only thing I took exception with is Goose wasn’t to blame on that one baseline drive. Nelson stopped playing defense on the play before goose tried to make up for it.

we must be thinking about different plays. the one I'm thinking of Goose was defending his man on the block with like 4 seconds left on the shot clock. let him go right by for a reverse layup.

 

[flyder19]

Say what you want about RPIM, but let it be known that out of all players who have played in every game this season, Roche is 3rd in average RPIM. He has passed Bigelow, Goose, and Quinn, and is catching JayNel (Burton far ahead). This is all while seeing 35% less game time and taking 40% fewer shot attempts while riding the bench. ABSURD

Mooney has one responsibility: WIN. No matter who's been here the longest, or fits your ideal coaching style, you play your best players each and every game to, you guessed it, WIN. Sacrifice your preseason game plans, switch it up, trust your assistant coaches. From what I've seen this season, I'm losing faith he can do that, and that's coming from a Mooney supporter.

It's time to admit you're wrong, sit down with your assistant coaches, listen to them, and put together new game plans based on the current performance of your team. That doesn't mean blowing anything up, it's just time for some larger adjustments. All companies do it as they head into Q1, let's do that before we head into A10 play, where the pivotal part of the season begins.

 

[mr.spider]

Mooney needs a really really long preseason to figure his sh!t out.

Unfortunately, start of A10 play is way too late to figure it out. Hell, the start of December is way too late. How many teams can recover from a 3-4 start? How many teams can go 21-3 the rest of the way? At this point he may as well consider the first 31 games his preseason. Good coaches can't and don't take a month to figure it out.

 

[8legs1dream]

Mooney needs a really really long preseason to figure his stuff out.

Unfortunately, start of A10 play is way too late to figure it out. Hell, the start of December is way too late. How many teams can recover from a 3-4 start? How many teams can go 21-3 the rest of the way? At this point he may as well consider the first 31 games his preseason. Good coaches can't and don't take a month to figure it out.

He just needs more time, have some patience. He hasn't even been here 20 years yet.

 

[Spiders05]

Guys - getting tired of the petty mudslinging.

We have an ignore feature...use it if you need.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

I feel like I should reiterate that I LOVE, LOVE Tyler Burton and want him on my wall, need him on my wall. I just thought he was really poor offensively last night.