We need to do better recruiting!

[RichmondNative]

The only thing UR has in common with VCU and Dayton is how much money they all pay their head coach.

The difference between VCU, Dayton, Davidson, and UR is that the first three are "basketball only" schools. Sure Dayton and Davidson have football, but it is non-scholarship. So all these schools are spending all their time and energy on basketball recruiting. UR spends money on a DIV 1 FCS football team as well as lacrosse. Thus, UR does not have a single focus on basketball and for some reason thought investing a ton of money on a long term basketball coach's contract was a good idea. I think they simply got a case of keeping up with the Jones' with the school down the road. The fans of the basketball program have been suffering ever since.

As far as recruiting, there is no significant recruiting to do. UR has 1 scholarship available next year because of an unexpected mid-season exit of a player who went to a DIV 2 team. Most likely, a grad transfer will take this spot although based on the pickups to date that isn't going to make any difference to next year's team. The subsequent class is rather uncertain because it will depend on how the 1 spot is filled for next year plus whatever decisions Grant and Nick make.

As far as coaching, CM is an average coach getting paid like an excellent one. The administration is happy with his pedigree and is hoping that the investment will pay off. They have already over committed in terms of salary and the primary benefactor is OK with the coach, so they aren't going to buy him out. The recent string of "bad luck" is buying some time on making the decision to make a change. There is no doubt in my mind that we will see CM coaching "the best class ever" next year. The team will be deeper and more experienced next year and should be quite good offensively, which is exciting. The team is also going to be just as weak defensively, which is disappointing and frustrating. The only way anything changes next year is if the recent "roster surprises" continue. Otherwise, I think the earliest it will be decision time is after next season.

 

[MrTbone]

The only thing UR has in common with VCU and Dayton is how much money they all pay their head coach.

The difference between VCU, Dayton, Davidson, and UR is that the first three are "basketball only" schools. Sure Dayton and Davidson have football, but it is non-scholarship. So all these schools are spending all their time and energy on basketball recruiting. UR spends money on a DIV 1 FCS football team as well as lacrosse. Thus, UR does not have a single focus on basketball and for some reason thought investing a ton of money on a long term basketball coach's contract was a good idea. I think they simply got a case of keeping up with the Jones' with the school down the road. The fans of the basketball program have been suffering ever since.

As far as recruiting, there is no significant recruiting to do. UR has 1 scholarship available next year because of an unexpected mid-season exit of a player who went to a DIV 2 team. Most likely, a grad transfer will take this spot although based on the pickups to date that isn't going to make any difference to next year's team. The subsequent class is rather uncertain because it will depend on how the 1 spot is filled for next year plus whatever decisions Grant and Nick make.

As far as coaching, CM is an average coach getting paid like an excellent one. The administration is happy with his pedigree and is hoping that the investment will pay off. They have already over committed in terms of salary and the primary benefactor is OK with the coach, so they aren't going to buy him out. The recent string of "bad luck" is buying some time on making the decision to make a change. There is no doubt in my mind that we will see CM coaching "the best class ever" next year. The team will be deeper and more experienced next year and should be quite good offensively, which is exciting. The team is also going to be just as weak defensively, which is disappointing and frustrating. The only way anything changes next year is if the recent "roster surprises" continue. Otherwise, I think the earliest it will be decision time is after next season.

I keep wanting to say that this defies all logic but it doesn’t.

It does defy any reason I’d go to a game next year.

 

[spiderstudent17]

The only thing UR has in common with VCU and Dayton is how much money they all pay their head coach.

The only thing? You forgot the most important commonality which is that we are in the same conference. If what Hardt says is true about him coming to Richmond because the school is committed to basketball success i.e. A10 championships and NCAA tournament appearances, then these are the teams we need to beat to achieve that goal. Paying our coach $1.2 million is a testament to how the school is willing to spend the money needed to be successful. It's just that money needs to be spent on the right coach.

As far as coaching, CM is an average coach getting paid like an excellent one.

This is the problem. If we are going to be paying a coach over a million dollars that coach better produce results. If not, we need to fire the coach and find someone who can do it.

The difference between VCU, Dayton, Davidson, and UR is that the first three are "basketball only" schools. Sure Dayton and Davidson have football, but it is non-scholarship. So all these schools are spending all their time and energy on basketball recruiting

UR was 5th in A10 in basketball expenses in 2018. Here's the order:

1. VCU $6.1 million
2. Dayton $5.63 million
3. St. Louis $5.59 million
4. UMASS $5.32 million
5. Richmond $4.88 million

Davidson was last in A10 at $2.64 million

I agree that spending money is important to building a successful program, but it's not just the amount that is important. Smart spending = success not most spending. If it were the latter, then UMASS should be in 4th place now and Davidson should be last.

Source: https://www.midmajormadness.com/201...ics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-major

Thus, UR does not have a single focus on basketball and for some reason thought investing a ton of money on a long term basketball coach's contract was a good idea.

Not a single focus on basketball? I think a $16 million practice facility being built now says otherwise

There is no doubt in my mind that we will see CM coaching "the best class ever" next year. The team will be deeper and more experienced next year and should be quite good offensively, which is exciting.

Didn't we say the same thing when Kendall Anthony was a senior? When Terry Allen's class were seniors? When TJ and SDJ were seniors? At some point we have to look at history and say things aren't going to suddenly change, right?

The administration is happy with his pedigree and is hoping that the investment will pay off. They have already over committed in terms of salary and the primary benefactor is OK with the coach, so they aren't going to buy him out

This is the biggest concern with the program and it may be true. I am hoping that it is not the case. For a school that seems like they are devoted to the success of its basketball program (as evident by some of my previous comments) its frustrating to think that they are okay with the coach simply because of his pedigree and how he "represents the school well" as if no other coach in this country is capable of doing that.

 

[I-M-UR]

First, there is no way UR is going to look like VCU or Dayton. Never has and never will in my opinion.

Second, it is going to be rare for any Spider freshman to be able to contribute right out of the gate. The P5 gets the majority of that type of player. All that can be done is to develop players. I think Sal and Andre both have potential. Mooney wouldn't start 2 freshmen, but he has no alternative.

Last, although I agree that having a coach on the "hot seat" doesn't help recruiting, UR only has 1 open scholarship for next year and the only reason it does is because a recruiting miss left this year. So technically, the FMM crowd isn't hurting anything currently.

We have one injured player. Yes we loss two to transfer (which is in part on Mooney) but from a 12 and 20 team. If after years of tournament appearances one down cycle would be tolerable but that hasn't happened. He's paid big money to produce big things.

 

[RichmondNative]

Thanks for the long reply and counter points 17. Not really sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing overall with what I said, but I think we are closer to on the same page than not.

The only thing? You forgot the most important commonality which is that we are in the same conference.

I didn't mention that because everyone on this forum knows that, but OK bad word choice of "only".

This is the problem. If we are going to be paying a coach over a million dollars that coach better produce results. If not, we need to fire the coach and find someone who can do it.

Agreed. My point is that UR is over extended because of a terrible contract for a coach that is not producing.

Thanks for the reference on the spending/expenses. I think that supports what I was saying more than refutes it. My point is UR is spending money across the board, not just on basketball. Perhaps the most telling stats would be percentage of expenses of each program over the entire budget.

Not a single focus on basketball? I think a $16 million practice facility being built now says otherwise.

I didn't say UR wasn't investing in basketball because they obviously are. The school is also investing money in renovations of Milhesier gym and other portions of this same basic area that I believe will serve the greater student athlete population. There has also been significant investment in the Robins Center for the other programs. My point is that there is not a singular focus, money is being spent across the board.

Didn't we say the same thing when Kendall Anthony was a senior? When Terry Allen's class were seniors? When TJ and SDJ were seniors? At some point we have to look at history and say things aren't going to suddenly change, right?
.

I wasn't on this Forum back then, but I did go to all of those games and root for all of those players. I totally agree that it has been a long series of "almosts" and I am just as disappointed as everyone else. I just think CM is going to get at least one more chance. Not saying I want this to be, it is just what I see happening.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Thanks for the long reply and counter points 17. Not really sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing overall with what I said, but I think we are closer to on the same page than not.


I didn't mention that because everyone on this forum knows that, but OK bad word choice of "only".

Agreed. My point is that UR is over extended because of a terrible contract for a coach that is not producing.

Thanks for the reference on the spending/expenses. I think that supports what I was saying more than refutes it. My point is UR is spending money across the board, not just on basketball. Perhaps the most telling stats would be percentage of expenses of each program over the entire budget.

I didn't say UR wasn't investing in basketball because they obviously are. The school is also investing money in renovations of Milhesier gym and other portions of this same basic area that I believe will serve the greater student athlete population. There has also been significant investment in the Robins Center for the other programs. My point is that there is not a singular focus, money is being spent across the board.

I wasn't on this Forum back then, but I did go to all of those games and root for all of those players. I totally agree that it has been a long series of "almosts" and I am just as disappointed as everyone else. I just think CM is going to get at least one more chance. Not saying I want this to be, it is just what I see happening.

Thanks, RichmondNative. I appreciate the thoughtful response.

Having a singular focus on basketball can certainly help teams like VCU, Dayton, and St. Louis. However, to me, I don't see us focusing on other programs like football and lacrosse as negative or detracting from basketball at all. Richmond is in a fortunate position with its endowment and alumni donors where we can have our cake and eat it too. Meaning we can focus on the success of many sports, without lowering our expectations of success with each. This is because we have the monetary means to be successful in all of them. Basketball still gets the most focus, attention, and resources.

Don't get me wrong, we aren't a P5 school and aren't generating millions of dollars in revenue from basketball or football. However, winning in the A10 doesn't require spending $10+ million a year like it would for teams in P5 conferences. Davidson only spends $2.6 million per year and have been doing pretty darn well. That's because after a certain threshold of money, more spending doesn't mean more success. It is clear that UR spends more than enough money to be able to compete with the "top teams" in our conference. However, UR needs to prioritize its spending in ways that will generate immediate success. For me, I posted this in a thread several weeks/months ago, the 2 most important things UR can spend its money on in this order are 1) A great coach 2) A practice facility. A great practice facility cannot compensate for a poor coach/recruiter. However, a great coach/recruiter can use a practice facility to make an immediate impact for their program.

That's why I have been advocating that we spend our money wisely by investing in a good coach as the #1 priority. While the practice facility is incredibly wonderful and something I am excited to have and while having Lunardi as a consultant can be helpful, these won't make us a better team if we don't have a good coach. My concern is that our athletic department doesn't realize this and they think that these ancillary things will somehow make Mooney better at his job, which it won't in any significant way. It's analogous to spending a lot of money to having the nicest looking car like a Lamborghini. If that Lamborghini doesn't have an engine, it doesn't matter how nice it looks, the car will never go anywhere. Coaching is that engine in basketball. Right now, our program spends money without having substance.

And you're right that CM may get another year. I don't know what Hardt is thinking. What I'm saying though is that this team went 12-20 last year. We are on pace for another losing season this year. Chris Mooney has a 54% win history here with 8 straight years now of no NCAA appearances. Why do people still feel (not saying you specifically) as though things are going to be different? Yes having Nick Sherod and Blake Francis will make us a better team on paper, but that doesn't mean we will suddenly go from being a 13-19 team to a 25-8 team which is what we need to be an at-large. To me, I don't make the argument "Well, we have some good players coming next year so we should be better". My argument is "While we have good players coming next year, Mooney's history has shown that he is unlikely going to utilize his player's talents effectively to make us an NCAA contender. So why do we keep giving him chances on hope when we have history telling us otherwise?"

 

[Eight Legger]

17, I would like to cede my future posts to you because you are expressing everything I believe to a T. Well done.

 

[Spider2020]

Give credit where credit is do
Take a look at Cayo last year and look at him now he has bulked up considerably

Cayo listed as 205 pounds both years. He certainly developed skill wise, as I said. But don’t think he is any stronger. I also don’t think he looks any bigger (I know the listed weights usually aren’t accurate).

 

[Spider2020]

This is actually the exact opposite argument most on here have about our strength and conditioning program.

Seems to me we are getting all the bad aspects of ineffective training (messed up jump shots, loss of quickness) without any of the benefits (strength gains). Grant is the only player I’ve seen in my time at Richmond really bulk up with the program. Even when we get guys who are physically impressive, like Buck, our strength coaches don’t make them bigger and stronger. TJ’s fitness definitely improved, but that’s because he was working all summer with Nancy. If we want to be a finesse team, it shouldn’t matter how big and strong we are. But we’ll keep getting bullied by bigger and stronger teams like VCU unless we shoot the lights out

 

[MrTbone]

Cayo listed as 205 pounds both years. He certainly developed skill wise, as I said. But don’t think he is any stronger. I also don’t think he looks any bigger (I know the listed weights usually aren’t accurate).

I don’t have any problem with Nathan’s weight or strength, his build suits his game.

Now if you want to make the case that he should be playing more as a SF and we need a bigger F, I can get behind that.

But we play positionless basketball blah blah blah.

 

[Spider2020]

I don’t have any problem with Nathan’s weight or strength, his build suits his game.

Now if you want to make the case that he should be playing more as a SF and we need a bigger F, I can get behind that.

But we play positionless basketball blah blah blah.

I’d be good with him playing SF, but to do that he’d need to take (and make) jump shots...

 

[REDS1]

With regards to recruiting, people forget that recruits also talk to players currently on teams. The lack of diversity at UR is a problem. VCU and other schools are considered by students the lit school with a vibrant fan base because it has people from all types of backgrounds who enjoy sports. If you don't think its out there amongst recruits that UR is a rich white school with a lack of diversity on campus you kidding yourself. Kids want to play in front of exciting crowds too. UR has the academics that kids want and love but it needs to figure out how to create the excitement from its fans for its two major sports or we are in trouble. Academics alone will not cut it with recruiting!

 

[whampas]

With regards to recruiting, people forget that recruits also talk to players currently on teams. The lack of diversity at UR is a problem. VCU and other schools are considered by students the lit school with a vibrant fan base because it has people from all types of backgrounds who enjoy sports. If you don't think its out there amongst recruits that UR is a rich white school with a lack of diversity on campus you kidding yourself. Kids want to play in front of exciting crowds too. UR has the academics that kids want and love but it needs to figure out how to create the excitement from its fans for its two major sports or we are in trouble.

Win.

 

[KE Spider]

With regards to recruiting, people forget that recruits also talk to players currently on teams. The lack of diversity at UR is a problem. VCU and other schools are considered by students the lit school with a vibrant fan base because it has people from all types of backgrounds who enjoy sports. If you don't think its out there amongst recruits that UR is a rich white school with a lack of diversity on campus you kidding yourself. Kids want to play in front of exciting crowds too. UR has the academics that kids want and love but it needs to figure out how to create the excitement from its fans for its two major sports or we are in trouble.

The statement "The lack of diversity at UR is a problem" has no basis in fact. Check out the school student profile. Couldn't be much more diverse.

 

[MrTbone]

Agreed, the demographics no longer fit this narrative. But I think perception is a more difficult hill to climb, lots of people still believe this as REDS has just demonstrated.

 

[KE Spider]

But REDS first sentence talks about recruits talking with current players. I agree an old perception my exist in some circles, but not in the instance suggested by his intro sentence.

 

[Eight Legger]

The demographics have changed for the better, no doubt, but they could be more diverse. I know for a fact that some athletes especially still feel isolated, sometimes simply as athletes across all demographics and sometimes racially.

 

[REDS1]

Go to a VCU game and then compare the diversity in the arena. African Americans and White American students sitting right next to each other like they are family. Its a different feeling over there. I was just watching a game recently and it looks different on tv when comparing it to UR. You have no diversity amongst American students who love sports. If you think I don't know what I m talking about then why are UR players running over to VCU to have fun on their campus. African American players on our main two sorts hang at VCU.

 

[MrTbone]

Fair point, although I think most schools would struggle to compete with vcu in diversity.

 

[REDS1]

Look I heard from players that they have to go across to VCU to have fun because they aren't welcomed to frat parties at UR. I heard it first hand from student athletes.
I love the school , but I'm just stating the facts.

 

[KE Spider]

Go to a VCU game and then compare the diversity in the arena. African Americans and White American students sitting right next to each other like they are family. Its a different feeling over there. I was just watching a game recently and it looks different on tv when comparing it to UR. You have no diversity amongst American students who love sports. If you think I don't know what I m talking about then why are UR players running over to VCU to have fun on their campus. African American players on our main two sorts hang at VCU.

UR student profile:

9% international students
29% of color
20% from Virginia
From 47 states, D.C., Pueto Rico, Virgin Islands and 71 countries.

Guess our players come down your way because you have more women and better clubs close to campus, but it ain't diversity related.

 

[MrTbone]

As in they aren’t allowed to go, i.e. discriminated against? Sounds sort of outlandish but I guess anything is possible.

 

[spider23]

One solution, hire Shaka, or Earl Grant. or Mike Jones.

 

[DTSpider]

Look I hear from players that they have to go across to VCU to have fun because they aren't allowed to parties at UR. I heard it first hand from student athletes.
I love the school , but I'm just stating the facts. I wouldn't change where my son went to school.

There’s a lot here. Part of this I lay at the feet of one Danny Rocco. Isolating from the student body never is a good thing.

It doesn’t have to be this way. But it takes a commitment for involvement from the coaches to be aware of student life. It has been different before. I realize times change but this doesn’t have to be an issue.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

The fraternities didn't want the athletes on their guest lists in the late 80s and 90s. Hard to understand. We still had wild parties, and the campus cops were more willing to look the other way.

We went down to VCU for the er..um....availability of the women.

Perhaps I've said too much.

 

[64Spider]

A good start might be for students to actually attend games. At our last home game the 100 or so who stayed for the whole game (mostly football team) seemed to enjoy themselves.

 

[MrTbone]

The fraternities didn't want the athletes on their guest lists in the late 80s and 90s. Hard to understand. We still had wild parties, and the campus cops were more willing to look the other way.

We went down to VCU for the er..um....availability of the women.

Perhaps I've said too much.

As a fraternity guy myself, I think this is a bit of a generalization. I was always happy to have athletes at our parties if they knew someone at the house. Every fraternity was obligated by campus police and IFC to keep a door list/count so if you weren’t on the list or didn’t know someone you likely werent getting in. I don’t know that’s any more discriminatory than going to some random persons house party and inviting yourself in.

But I can appreciate that it may have felt otherwise. By the time I was a senior I had pretty much tired of fraternity row anyway.

 

[SpiderK]

The fraternities didn't want the athletes on their guest lists in the late 80s and 90s. Hard to understand. We still had wild parties, and the campus cops were more willing to look the other way.

We went down to VCU for the er..um....availability of the women.

Perhaps I've said too much.

I hear ya, UR has never been famous for having too many hotties, better than William & Mary though.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

As a fraternity guy myself, I think this is a bit of a generalization. I was always happy to have athletes at our parties if they knew someone at the house. Every fraternity was obligated by campus police and IFC to keep a door list/count so if you weren’t on the list or didn’t know someone you likely werent getting in. I don’t know that’s any more discriminatory than going to some random persons house party and inviting yourself in.

But I can appreciate that it may have felt otherwise. By the time I was a senior I had pretty much tired of fraternity row anyway.

I didn't mean it like that. I didn't have a problem with it. I understood the list policy, and can also respect that the first 50 names or so are going to be women.
We tended to travel in groups. Some of my teammates were mean drunks, too.

 

[nathanw19]

I didn't mean it like that. I didn't have a problem with it. I understood the list policy, and can also respect that the first 50 names or so are going to be women.
We tended to travel in groups. Some of my teammates were mean drunks, too.

Omar and Gaston were at our lodge so much, I thought they were in our fraternity.

 

[Spider2020]

Look I heard from players that they have to go across to VCU to have fun because they aren't welcomed to frat parties at UR. I heard it first hand from student athletes.
I love the school , but I'm just stating the facts.

Are you talking about football players? I know of one frat that doesn’t welcome them, but the basketball players always seem to be welcome anywhere.

In general, I think you’re falsely equating downtown clubs with VCU parties.