When you don't have anyone at the top (seniors), and you don't have anyone filling from below (freshman), you get stuck. Here we are!
FIRE MOONEY
- Thread starter SpiderRick
- Start date
When you don't have anyone at the top (seniors), and you don't have anyone filling from below (freshman), you get stuck. Here we are!
The thing missing in that analysis is that Deion isn't shooting...he's not wasting our possessions. The points Marshall is scoring are in large part simply taking the place of points that would be scored anyway by other players on the floor (mostly TA, TJC, and SDJ).
Yes, there may be something to be said for having Marshall as a threat on the outside to help keep defenders honest and make things easier for our other scorers, even if he isn't hitting, but our main guys shoot high percentages regardless.
Sorry but don't buy your logic. My belief is that some of MW's points might have been made by someone else. However, I'm going to go with the idea that most of his points are add on points that we probably wouldn't have gotten from other players.
Re: your point about DT not wasting possessions - what??? That's like counter intuitive to as to the reason he's on the floor in the first place on offense. Like it or not, disagree if you choose, but for the most part on offense, he's a placeholder on the court. As so many people on this board have pointed out, with him in the lineup, that's basically one less person the opposing teams have to watch allowing them to double down on TA. Reconcile that with "he's not wasting our possessions". I respect your opinion but just see through a different set of eyes.
I watch every game I can, and I rarely see TA or TJ being double teamed. is this just a hypothetical double teaming? I mean, it makes sense. I'd sag off of Deion and Trey. but while I see some sagging I don't see doubling, and TA and TJ are scoring fine. if they start not scoring, then I'd be worried.
My point is that it's not as simple as Deion's points scored minus his points given up (which itself is difficult to quantify) to determine his net "worth" compared to Marshall.
We have a certain number of possessions, and they all end somehow...basket scored, missed shot, turnover. The major knock against Deion is that he doesn't produce many points. But it's not that he's shooting and missing, which would be "wasting" possessions for us. He's not even shooting (and he isn't particularly turnover prone), so it means somebody else on the team is ending those possessions. And it mostly means a shot from TA, TJC, or SDJ, which isn't a bad thing.
Sure, Marshall scored 47 points in two games, and I am under no illusion that Deion would have scored anywhere close to that. But Deion doesn't shoot (well, he does once in a while, and he leads the team in 2pt and 3pt percentage), so those shots taken by Marshall would have been taken by someone else had he not been in there. And we would have made a good number of them.
I freely acknowledge the idea that maybe having Marshall on the court as a shooting threat keeps defenses more honest and makes things easier for other primary options. But I haven't seen the evidence for it...just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's reality. Our guys score the ball really well regardless of whether Deion or Marshall is in there.
Mac, thanks I'll tell him he's remembered here. He still is fun to watch. Sometimes my other brother and I will travel to watch him, saw him win the world championship in his age group couple of years ago, that was fun. Now living in Naples FL as a tennis director at a resort there. And still playing
Not a serious tennis fan but played with Ivan Lendl in a pro am golf event one time. He was a very good golfer and could read the greens better and faster than anyone I ever saw. He lined up all my putts and when I made them he would say "at least you are coachable".
Yes Lendl could do a lot of things well, played golf on the Nationwide Tour for a while and I believe he also drove a race car at one time. And he is an excellent coach as well. Mark really liked Lendl as a person, although most thought him to be rather stoic.
Saw Lendl play in the Nationwide tourney a number of years ago at The Dominion Club. Quite an athlete.
So your opinion is we would have beaten Fordham and Lasalle with Taylor playing Wood's minutes??????? Sorry, can't see it at all.
We still have 2 spots open in our incoming class. Hope we get some good players.
Or how about one unhappy freshman from LSU who is tired of having to do all the work?
Simmons will be getting paid a lot more than he is getting at LSU next year.
I would say the same about Kentucky, but their payroll is probably higher than the NBA.
La Salle, yes. Fordham, maybe not.
I'm not saying Marshall hasn't made a difference, or even that he shouldn't be starting over Deion....only that the situation isn't as simple as Marshall scores a lot more than Deion so he's automatically the better option. Deion was more impactful than Marshall against VCU.
I wonder what recruits think when they see the fire mooney thread on the board. I'm guessing in this day and age, they check stuff like this since it kind of pertains to them. I'm not in anyway saying we shouldn't have this thread, just curious what goes through a recruits mind or someone who has already signed on.
An astute recruit realizes that this sort of thing goes on at any program where the fans give a $h!t. If I was a recruit, I would be more worried if there was a lack of this sort of discourse. They take our posts into account, but probably don't place a lot of stock in the actual content, at least if they are smart they don't.
probably true, but if it affects even one recruit then it hurt our program. if one 16 or 17 year old thinks twice, worried that the guy recruiting him won't be around, then it undermined our staff.
not saying it should. sure, this goes on in other programs. just wish it didn't here. it can't help.
but I know many here take their venting rights very seriously.
not saying it should. sure, this goes on in other programs. just wish it didn't here. it can't help.
but I know many here take their venting rights very seriously.
Deion was more impactful against VCU. Huh. Maybe. There stat lines look very similar. It's funny how Marshall gets downgraded when he doesn't score a bunch but for Deion he is just fulfilling his role when he doesn't do anything of consequence. Tis a bit of a double standard, in my opinion.
Mooney has said repeatedly Marshall is one of our better rebounders as well, so even when he is not bombing threes, he is still opening up the offense and fairly active of the glass.
Mooney has said repeatedly Marshall is one of our better rebounders as well, so even when he is not bombing threes, he is still opening up the offense and fairly active of the glass.
Suspect that the answer to your question can be found in D'Monte Buckingham's tweet(s) in another thread
Like I said, I would be more concerned that there was a passionless fan base than I would about a bunch of old geezers blowing off steam after a close home loss to our bitter rivals. I think many of us here take ourselves and our perception of our own self-importance vis-a-vis the program way too seriously.
The reality is that the D1 college basketball coaching profession is very fluid, guys move around for a lot of reasons (who would have thought this time last year that Shaka was going to leave the Lambs?). If a coach leaves, his recruits have a lot of options these days.
I think what we say here on this forum has little to no impact on whether a kid decides to come here.
The reality is that the D1 college basketball coaching profession is very fluid, guys move around for a lot of reasons (who would have thought this time last year that Shaka was going to leave the Lambs?). If a coach leaves, his recruits have a lot of options these days.
I think what we say here on this forum has little to no impact on whether a kid decides to come here.
o
Almost every college coaches job has a deadline and recruits know that whether or not there are calls for a coach to b fired on a message board.
Deion and Marshall both played 30 minutes. Deion had one more rebound, one more assist, one more block, and two more steals. (On the negative side, Deion had one turnover, while Marshall had none.) But the biggest thing is Marshall missed five of his six shots. Deion didn't miss any shots, as he only took one and made it.
The object of the game is to make shots. A guy shooting 17% for the night isn't really contributing to that goal.
If Deion had all of Marshall's minutes, basically all Marshall's six shots would have gone to other players, who I bet would have gotten more than a total of five points out of them.
I think Marshall and Deion are both fulfilling their roles, and I do think Marshall should be starting over Deion. The only point I'm trying to make is that people are overestimating the impact difference between these two.
When Marshall is scoring well, he's partly (not entirely) replacing points that would have been scored by others. When he's not shooting well, he's hurting us. Deion has figured out how to not hurt us with missed shots...leave the shooting to the guys who can do it.
In my opinion, Marshall won the Fordham game for us, no doubt. But I also think if Deion had taken Marshall's minutes in the VCU game, we would have won that game. (It's too harsh to say he lost the VCU game for us, as there were any number of events that could be blamed for it in such a close game that went to OT. But missing five of six shots in regulation turned out to really hurt.)
I agree Wood should be starting. The only reason not to is if you want to reduce the chance of a fast offensive start for your opponent.
I think Wood's minutes should increase (unless he has too many fouls or is missing too many open shots).
But their is room for minutes for Taylor. You can look at the offensive end, but you can also look at the defensive end. What kind of game would Rhoomes or Cox have had if either Taylor or Wood had all the minutes?
Marshall Wood is the greatest player ever to wear a Richmond uniform, and the fact that he is not playing 50 minutes a game is an egregious and offensive reality that should be punishable by death. There, I said it.
wish I had his bank account.....
now that I think about it, wish I had his job too
MW has started two games and in both those games he shot very well and arguably was the difference in the outcome. We might also say that about the Cal and Wake game as well. I don't think we can say that about DT in any game this year. And when we give up 84 points in regulation I don't think we can say he had a great impact on our D either. Also if every player on our team had great offensive efficiency as DT while only shooting once, we'd score twelve points a game.
But then we could hang a "Top Efficiency" banner in the Robins Center!
they sag until TJ, TA, etc. get the ball then they do double team, especially if they are in the post because their is no reason to kick out the ball to Trey or Deion they aren't going to take much less hit the shot. You cannot play high level basketball with only 3 people capable of scoring. Maybe if Deion picked up a few offensive rebounds and had some put backs. Deion is a valuable player just doesn't need to be starting or playing that many minutes. For Trey, People guarding Trey have already learned he will drive before shooting no matter what so they just sag off him. they both have had 4 years to develop and outside shot, they obviously didn't work on it.
Notice how the defenders did not sag off of Wood, because they know he will take and hit the three..
IM ... I'm saying again that I think you're seeing what you think you should be seeing, and that in actuality teams aren't doubling TA and TJ as much as you think. because if TA and TJ are getting doubled due to Trey and DT's lack of offense, then I don't understand how they're shooting 53% and 56% respectively and averaging 20 and 16 PPG. pretty amazing if it was against double teams.
and father, while I know you're speaking tongue in cheek, offensive efficiency is based on scores per possession. obviously if we were having trouble scoring every player on our team would have a lousy offensive efficiency. somehow, despite the constant assertions here, we're scoring remarkably efficiently even with Deion and Trey on the floor ... even with the claims here that our offense needs 5 shooter on the floor to work well.
I'm not even sure why I'm arguing. I agree Marshall should start based on how he's played. but a lot of the reasoning being used to support that position is off base.
and father, while I know you're speaking tongue in cheek, offensive efficiency is based on scores per possession. obviously if we were having trouble scoring every player on our team would have a lousy offensive efficiency. somehow, despite the constant assertions here, we're scoring remarkably efficiently even with Deion and Trey on the floor ... even with the claims here that our offense needs 5 shooter on the floor to work well.
I'm not even sure why I'm arguing. I agree Marshall should start based on how he's played. but a lot of the reasoning being used to support that position is off base.
