UMBC Retrievers

[spiderman]

this theory that we sprint back on defense after every shot is a myth. we have a perimeter based offense. if a guy is 24' from the basket when a shot goes up, yeah he probably should play defense instead of charging in. that happens a lot so I know what you're seeing, but I'm fine with it. we still managed 13 offensive rebounds.

 

[Eight Legger]

I wouldn't call it a myth – Mooney himself has explained the strategy many times. Do we do it on every shot? Of course not. But usually if a guy shoots and is more than 10 feet from the basket, there are at least a few guys turning and running down to play defense.

 

[spiderman]

yes, it's a strategy. but there are a bunch of posts that go over the top on this. like we never try for an offensive rebound, and anyone who does is doing so against CM's wishes. that's what I'm talking about.

 

[ur2K]

I really can't get worked up about the offensive rebounding thing. It was the same strategy employed by Belein - but in order to not crash the offensive glass - we need to not turn the ball over and be a middling team on the defensive glass - not among the worst in the country as we have been under Mooney.

 

[97spiderfan]

this theory that we sprint back on defense after every shot is a myth. .

No, we don't do it on every shot but usually our offensive rebounding only comes into play later in the second half when we realize that if we don't grab some offensive boards that we are about to lose to UMBC, VMI or some other craptastic cupcake team.

I'm just going to start pointing to the scoreboard at some point. If all of these various strategies you keep defending are so great, than why, oh why, have we been no where near the NCAA in the past 5 years (going on 6 with this year), save for our 1 NIT bid a few years ago.

 

[urfan1]

Rebounding was not paramount to Beilein but he also said he did not want to lose the battle of the boards by more than 6 per game. I don't recall him making a big difference between O & D

 

[spiderman]

didn't say it's a great strategy. said we don't just shoot and run back every time no matter where we are on the floor like some say we do. just correcting hyperbole.

 

[fan2011]

Rebounding was not paramount to Beilein but he also said he did not want to lose the battle of the boards by more than 6 per game. I don't recall him making a big difference between O & D

I only have the numbers for his final year at Richmond, but that Beilein team ranked 318th in offensive rebounding and 281st in defensive rebounding. Mooney on average has ranked 315th and 272nd respectively, so our rebounding under Mooney has been virtually identical to what it was in Beilein's final year at Richmond.

At WVU Bielien averaged 299th in offensive rebounding, 285th in defensive rebounding.

At Michigan the rebounding has improved a lot, 252 in offensive rebounding, 143rd in defensive rebounding.

 

[MrTbone]

It's tough to argue that the strategy is or isn't working. We used this strategy in 2010-2011 and it was very successful. We used it last year and it was pretty unsuccessful. So it's cherrypicking to say it's right or wrong. As has been noted repeatedly, the difference year to year is who are the players executing the strategy. There's a reasonably strong argument to be made that CM isn't great at adjusting when things aren't working. I do see more adjustment this year than in the past, it hasn't necessarily translated into more wins though.

 

[Eight Legger]

Fair points, Tbone. I agree that the main issue now is that since this and other things haven't worked in 5 years, it's probably time to adjust somehow instead of mostly continuing to employ the same strategy.

At some point, either recruit better players who can shoot better and thereby help make this strategy effective, or scrap the strategy and adapt to whatever it is that your players do well.

 

[Ulla1]

It occurred to me that our play in the UMBC game was actually a tremendous positive! The Spiders were down by 14 points in the second half and WON! Blowing leads had been the former modus operandi. Maybe this will begin a trend in that regardless of the deficit, the Spiders can come back! Roll Spide! OSC

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Think whatever, but the strategy has to be prevent fast break points which in turn means don't even attempt to get an offensive board. And for number totals after 9 games this year, the Spiders are -34 points for 2nd chance points and -14 for fast break points for a schedule that ranks #310 presently. Not good.

Also 2011 with regards to the parallel of Beilein and CM look at it this way. John B's first 3 years at Mich his team's defensive rebounding average rank was #255 with team record of 46-53. Last 6 years it is #97 with being 143-70. Furthermore, 2016 was the worst ranked of the last 6 being #175 and record was 16-16. Yes 2011, it has improved and hope CM can adjust his thinking as it appears John B has.

 

[spiderman]

... since this and other things haven't worked in 5 years, it's probably time to adjust somehow instead of mostly continuing to employ the same strategy.

I think we've got it in our heads that the last 5 years were worse than they really were. last year was disappointing. we've gone over it a million times, but something wasn't there last season from players we expected more from.

2014/15? pretty fun season. fell just short. in the conversation for sure. 16-4 at home. 2 wins over VCU when they were ranked top 25. 21-14 for the season. 2 wins in the NIT, beat Az St and lost to Miami by 2. I wouldn't say things didn't work that year.

and 2013/14 wasn't awful either. we were rolling when Ced went down. ended up 19-14 after losing 5 of the last 6. again, things were working but losing Ced was more than we could handle.

I know the responses already and I'm not saying these years were amazing successes. some posts sound like we've sucked for 5 years, though. we haven't.

 

[Ulla1]

I think we've got it in our heads that the last 5 years were worse than they really were. last year was disappointing. we've gone over it a million times, but something wasn't there last season from players we expected more from.

2014/15? pretty fun season. fell just short. in the conversation for sure. 16-4 at home. 2 wins over VCU when they were ranked top 25. 21-14 for the season. 2 wins in the NIT, beat Az St and lost to Miami by 2. I wouldn't say things didn't work that year.

and 2013/14 wasn't awful either. we were rolling when Ced went down. ended up 19-14 after losing 5 of the last 6. again, things were working but losing Ced was more than we could handle.

I know the responses already and I'm not saying these years were amazing successes. some posts sound like we've sucked for 5 years, though. we haven't.

spiderman, you are exactly right and this has been rehashed again and again. There were some injuries and bad breaks, but its not been as bad as many naysayers on this board make it. Of course, I wish things had turned out a bit different, but we are a team getting better. Let's be supportive and enjoy the journey. OSC

 

[Eight Legger]

Yes, we had some bad breaks and misfortunes. So does every team. Dayton won a couple games in the NCAAs with a 6-man lineup of guys 6-foot-6 and smaller a few years ago, too. I'm not saying it "didn't work" as in we went 0-29, but we have one goal every year – make the NCAAs – and we have failed many years in a row.

 

[urfan1]

I only have the numbers for his final year at Richmond, but that Beilein team ranked 318th in offensive rebounding and 281st in defensive rebounding. Mooney on average has ranked 315th and 272nd respectively, so our rebounding under Mooney has been virtually identical to what it was in Beilein's final year at Richmond.

At WVU Bielien averaged 299th in offensive rebounding, 285th in defensive rebounding.

At Michigan the rebounding has improved a lot, 252 in offensive rebounding, 143rd in defensive rebounding.

I didn't say he did it, just my recollection of what he stated were his goals. He also tried to make up for "lack of rebounding" with ball control, steals, and great shooting.

 

[MrTbone]

Think whatever, but the strategy has to be prevent fast break points which in turn means don't even attempt to get an offensive board. And for number totals after 9 games this year, the Spiders are -34 points for 2nd chance points and -14 for fast break points for a schedule that ranks #310 presently. Not good.

Also 2011 with regards to the parallel of Beilein and CM look at it this way. John B's first 3 years at Mich his team's defensive rebounding average rank was #255 with team record of 46-53. Last 6 years it is #97 with being 143-70. Furthermore, 2016 was the worst ranked of the last 6 being #175 and record was 16-16. Yes 2011, it has improved and hope CM can adjust his thinking as it appears John B has.

On the JB front, you could make a pretty solid argument that this had a lot to do with the players in place and teaching them his system. 3 years is the turnover point for most of the roster and everyone in the following six years has been recruited for the system and knows how to play it.

There are obvious questions to be asked as to why we hit the do-over button in 2012 and haven't been able to quite get back except for the just outside looking in 2014-15 season.

 

[97spiderfan]

I think we've got it in our heads that the last 5 years were worse than they really were. last year was disappointing. we've gone over it a million times, but something wasn't there last season from players we expected more from.

2014/15? pretty fun season. fell just short. in the conversation for sure. 16-4 at home. 2 wins over VCU when they were ranked top 25. 21-14 for the season. 2 wins in the NIT, beat Az St and lost to Miami by 2. I wouldn't say things didn't work that year.

and 2013/14 wasn't awful either. we were rolling when Ced went down. ended up 19-14 after losing 5 of the last 6. again, things were working but losing Ced was more than we could handle.

I know the responses already and I'm not saying these years were amazing successes. some posts sound like we've sucked for 5 years, though. we haven't.

Just curious S-man and Ulla, how many years without an NCAA is too many for you to say enough is enough.

 

[MrTbone]

Just curious S-man and Ulla, how many years without an NCAA is too many for you to say enough is enough.

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'm about at my limit.

 

[spiderman]

Just curious S-man and Ulla, how many years without an NCAA is too many for you to say enough is enough.

there's no set number. I don't look at the final results of the past in a vacuum. and I'm always more concerned with where I feel we're heading than where we've been. if I didn't think recruiting was potentially at an all time high in this freshman class, I'd be less positive. I don't know about the follow up class yet but I'm totally sold that Gilyard is the truth. the others I'll wait and see. but in general, we need talent to win and I think we've gotten a lot of it recently.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

On the JB front, you could make a pretty solid argument that this had a lot to do with the players in place and teaching them his system. 3 years is the turnover point for most of the roster and everyone in the following six years has been recruited for the system and knows how to play it.

There are obvious questions to be asked as to why we hit the do-over button in 2012 and haven't been able to quite get back except for the just outside looking in 2014-15 season.

If that's how you see it, fine. Though like 2011 stated the UR team was poor at defensive rebounding in Beilein's final year and next 5 seasons at WV his team ranked average was poor at #285. Something has changed at Michigan in his years there.

 

[MrTbone]

If that's how you see it, fine. Though like 2011 stated the UR team was poor at defensive rebounding in Beilein's final year and next 5 seasons at WV his team ranked average was poor at #285. Something has changed at Michigan in his years there.

I'm not sure I "see it" in any definitive way. Just noting that he made a change in about the time it took to turnover the roster. Could be better personnel, could be coaching, could be both or something else.