Higher probability of Mooney getting contract extension than leaving early.

[UR80sfan]

I will cheer on the Spiders regardless of coach, but here is why I think Mooney has a higher probability getting contract extension then leaving early.

1. The university is not a democracy, It is controlled by the administration, board of trustees and major donors that have a lot of high priorities. I have never heard the president of the University mention that basketball was one of the top priorities.

2. The number one goal of the administration is academics and this applies to athletics. The administration puts great value on running a clean program made up of good students. The president of the University has complimented Mooney for how he runs the program in this regard.

3. The administration has very different views on what a successful basketball season looks like than people on this forum including me. My guess is that they think Mooney has done an acceptable job over time. He has fairly consistently been in the top half of the A10, including 5th place last year. I do not think it is a goal of this administration to have a top 50 program that competes for an NCAA bid each year.

4. The bar to get fired is much higher when it requires breaking a contract. It is a large expenses that is not in the budget. It might require funding outside of the annual fund which would be very difficult to obtain.

5. We have had 3 straight very good recruiting classes with a lot of very young high quality players on the team. The team has the potential to have very good seasons the next 2 years and be in the hunt to make the NCAAs both of those years. This is perfect timing for Mooney, because it is when the university needs to make a decision relative to extending the contract.

 

[Eight Legger]

If Mooney gets another extension without taking us to the NCAAs, I am done with Richmond basketball for good.

 

[MrTbone]

These are all very good points. We should still move on.

 

[VT4700]

If Mooney gets another extension without taking us to the NCAAs, I am done with Richmond basketball for good.

Wasn't there a thread about when people were done? How come so many people who said they were done still watch the games and post on here?

 

[Eight Legger]

I never said I was done. I said if Mooney gets another extension without taking us to the NCAAs, then I am done. And that's the truth.

 

[MolivaManiac]

Wasn't there a thread about when people were done? How come so many people who said they were done still watch the games and post on here?

That was a "done" with Mooney thread, not the program in general.

But your suggestion is a good one. Im going to take a self-imposed break for a while before 05 or urfan1 puts me on one.

I have some new year's resolutions to achieve.

 

[spiderstudent17]

I will cheer on the Spiders regardless of coach, but here is why I think Mooney has a higher probability getting contract extension then leaving early.

1. The university is not a democracy, It is controlled by the administration, board of trustees and major donors that have a lot of high priorities. I have never heard the president of the University mention that basketball was one of the top priorities.

2. The number one goal of the administration is academics and this applies to athletics. The administration puts great value on running a clean program made up of good students. The president of the University has complimented Mooney for how he runs the program in this regard.

3. The administration has very different views on what a successful basketball season looks like than people on this forum including me. My guess is that they think Mooney has done an acceptable job over time. He has fairly consistently been in the top half of the A10, including 5th place last year. I do not think it is a goal of this administration to have a top 50 program that competes for an NCAA bid each year.

4. The bar to get fired is much higher when it requires breaking a contract. It is a large expenses that is not in the budget. It might require funding outside of the annual fund which would be very difficult to obtain.

5. We have had 3 straight very good recruiting classes with a lot of very young high quality players on the team. The team has the potential to have very good seasons the next 2 years and be in the hunt to make the NCAAs both of those years. This is perfect timing for Mooney, because it is when the university needs to make a decision relative to extending the contract.

I am going to try and address each point you have above.

Point 1 - No academic institution ever has openly stated sports as being a top priority, especially over academics. Even schools like Ohio State or Alabama don't go out advertising that their top priority as a school is sports. While we are not Alabama or Ohio State type school, it is evident that winning has some level of importance to the school as repeatedly mentioned by Dr. Crutcher, Hardt, and the actions of the school investing in the program. There are many major donors and board of trustee members at UR too who have a passion for UR sports and want to see its success. Literally, last year, the Spider Club had the 1st/2nd most number of donations and 1st in total dollar amount. Then of course donors like Queally, Robbins family, Ukrop family, etc. Not to mention the Breed brothers who have helped our golf teams tremendously. I don't think your first point is accurate.

Point 2 - Academics should always be the number one priority of any school of higher learning. Doesn't mean that the University shouldn't strive to be as good as it can be in athletics. And why is Mooney constantly being lauded for running a clean program like he's the only coach in the country who does this?

Point 3 - Last month on Black and Drew, Hardt has mentioned that it is the Universities goal to compete for championships in basketball and he wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that. I will take Hardt's word to what the University strives for as a marker of success.

Point 4 - If we truly want to fire Mooney, expenses won't be a problem.

Point 5 - We have several good players these past few recruiting classes, but we need significantly more depth in all positions. More importantly, Mooney is not a good enough coach to utilize their talents effectively. I would argue this would be the best time to fire Mooney because if we can bring in a great coach - and have no transfers - then it makes the job of the new coach easier since the new coach will have talented players to work with from the get-go.

 

[ur2K]

Wasn't there a thread about when people were done? How come so many people who said they were done still watch the games and post on here?

Likely because people have a deep rooted interest in the university that extends beyond coaching regimes and head coaches, assistant coaches, DOBOs, and video coordinators.

 

[9Legs]

I cite the following quote from a Redskin fan regarding the season just ended.

I think this quote probably applies to our situation, the administration and many Spider fans regarding Mooney

“Anger isn’t cutting it because the organization probably believes that no matter how mad they make us today, we will love them tomorrow. Indifference can be powerful and much harder to overcome. I’m there. I’m not hopeful. I’m not mad. It’s easier to stop caring and move on.”

I think Hardt, Queally and the administration are not considering the "Indifference" that they have created. I know many including myself that have stopped caring and moved on.

 

[fatherspider]

All good points except for number 3. They would not be paying a bb coach overa mil a year if they werent serious about filling seats and winning.

 

[spider23]

All good points except for number 3. They would not be paying a bb coach overa mil a year if they werent serious about filling seats and winning.

Right, let's put Bob Black in the position at 200,000 per year, and not charter flights and renovate RC, and build practice facilities.

 

[SpiderGuy]

If the title of this thread becomes reality, one word comes to mind representing the basketball program - "capitulation".

 

[RichmondNative]

Don’t really want to bury this in a thread, but folks may be tired of new posts on the coaching position, so I will add comments to this thread anyway.

The best way to evaluate a program is to see what other coaches think of your program and I found this article which does just that: https://watchstadium.com/news/atlan...k-the-best-jobs-in-the-conference-10-17-2018/
I think this link probably deserves a thread all to itself, but long story short UR is selected as the 8th most desirable. The biggest knock against is that the school has the 2nd most difficult admissions standards. That fact is not going to change. Facilities are something the school is continuously working on and the new training center will be the latest improvement. The top schools on the list have the highest paid head coaches from what I can find (Dayton, VCU).

Richmond may very well be third in this category and that is where I think the complaints on this forum are valid. The program quality does not reflect the investment in the coaching staff. I think it was more of a “keeping up with the Jones’” situation (ie VCU) when the contract was signed. The funding for coaches salaries comes from the boosters typically, so if the program is not producing the desired results then it seems logical that the boosters would not support such a coaching expenditure. Thus the question is if there is a contract extension, what are the terms? I am thinking a 50% pay cut may be in store. Would CM stay for less pay?

Let the debates begin.

 

[Eight Legger]

This thread is absurd. Mooney is not getting an extension after two losing seasons. Lock this up.

 

[wr70beh]

I will cheer on the Spiders regardless of coach, but here is why I think Mooney has a higher probability getting contract extension then leaving early.

1. The university is not a democracy, It is controlled by the administration, board of trustees and major donors that have a lot of high priorities. I have never heard the president of the University mention that basketball was one of the top priorities.

2. The number one goal of the administration is academics and this applies to athletics. The administration puts great value on running a clean program made up of good students. The president of the University has complimented Mooney for how he runs the program in this regard.

3. The administration has very different views on what a successful basketball season looks like than people on this forum including me. My guess is that they think Mooney has done an acceptable job over time. He has fairly consistently been in the top half of the A10, including 5th place last year. I do not think it is a goal of this administration to have a top 50 program that competes for an NCAA bid each year.

4. The bar to get fired is much higher when it requires breaking a contract. It is a large expenses that is not in the budget. It might require funding outside of the annual fund which would be very difficult to obtain.

5. We have had 3 straight very good recruiting classes with a lot of very young high quality players on the team. The team has the potential to have very good seasons the next 2 years and be in the hunt to make the NCAAs both of those years. This is perfect timing for Mooney, because it is when the university needs to make a decision relative to extending the contract.

Is this what you want? Has the last season and a half meant anything to you?

 

[UR80sfan]

Is this what you want? Has the last season and a half meant anything to you?

It doesn't matter what I want or what you want. The only opinions that matter are the administration, which is primarily the President of U of R, the Board of Trustees and a number of major donors. That is the point of the post.

I personally have very radical views about having a winning basketball program. I would make it a priority of the school, reduce academic standards for 4 and 5 star players like Georgetown did. Heck maybe even create classes they can pass. I don't think Patrick Ewing or Allen Iverson could have made it by admissions.

 

[urfan1]

Unless we do as 80s suggest we well never get an invite into the BE. Without it there is no reason to speak of such a move even if we turn it around. I don't think 2 or 3 admissions of good kids a year would hurt our standing. GT, Duke, and others seem to fair just fine.

 

[spiderstudent17]

I see the firing of Gill and subsequent hiring of Hardt as AD, practice facility, admission of JUCO player for football, as a positive stride in that direction. These facilities, athletic-administration alignment, are all important steps we are taking to move us in the right direction. I see a president, BOT, major donors, athletic director who are all getting on the same page and making the necessary changes needed. These athletic improvements not only can coexist with the academic advancements we have made, but as I mentioned previously with the “Flutie Effect” can bolster the academic side.

At the end of the day, I think we all have a lot more commonalities in our aspirations for Spider sports than differences. I think for many of us Spider fans who have been adamant with a coaching change is not due to an unsubstantiated dislike for Mooney, but rather seeing through years of coaching he is not someone who can elevate our program to the level we wish it to be. A lot of the perceived “negativity” is more frustration and a way to vent more than anything else. It’s frustrating because as a program we have a lot of the necessary requisites to build a top level program, but we aren’t achieving our potential. While all the amenities alluded to in the previous paragraph are beneficial, undoubtedly the biggest impact to turning things around is with a coaching change. Many of us have been patient over the years, but coming off a 12-20 season, and a 6-7 OOC in the easiest OOC schedule we have had in a long time, there isn’t a lot to be overtly positive about. That’s not to say that we can’t be happy with player improvements, seeing the team do well on the court, or want success this season. I just think many of us believe that we have hit a plateau under Mooney and keeping him as a coaching will only prolong this perpetual state of mediocrity. Some fear that by winning many of these games against IUPUI or St. Francis caliber teams, is not a true indicator of progress or better things to come, but rather a facade masked by beating inferior opponents that will justify the administrations decision to refrain from making a coaching change.

I see the passion many of our fans on this board, social media, at the games, etc have and think it is a huge testament to how great of a fan base we have. I am proud to be part of such a fervent group of fans and alums that want to see our school be the best we can be in all facets - athletics, academics, arts, etc.

 

[gcarter52]

If Mooney gets another extension without taking us to the NCAAs, I am done with Richmond basketball for good.

You seem like you are already done!!

 

[Eight Legger]

No, I still watch every game. I pay attention to what is happening. I'm pretty knowledgeable about the program, just incredibly disappointed by how much money we have wasted for incredibly subpar results. I know Hardt is not stupid enough to extend Mooney, since he already refused to do so at the end of last year. But if he did, then I would stop paying attention.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I cite the following quote from a Redskin fan regarding the season just ended.

I think this quote probably applies to our situation, the administration and many Spider fans regarding Mooney

“Anger isn’t cutting it because the organization probably believes that no matter how mad they make us today, we will love them tomorrow. Indifference can be powerful and much harder to overcome. I’m there. I’m not hopeful. I’m not mad. It’s easier to stop caring and move on.”

I think Hardt, Queally and the administration are not considering the "Indifference" that they have created. I know many including myself that have stopped caring and moved on.

Thanks for posting. It's an excellent article; I'm not a Redskin fan but I am fascinated by what is happening to that fan base and organization. It was also featured on SVP's "One Big Thing" last night.
I read that quote and immediately thought of Richmond basketball. Here's the full quote:

“My emotions during the Snyder era have run from anger to hope and back to anger. Then disbelief. The crazy part now is that I feel indifference,” Collins wrote, in an email quoted by Van Pelt. “Indifference to the team that was a huge part of my life growing up. I was as passionate as they come. And maybe that’s what is needed. While the Redskins are doing big things, whether terrific or stupid but mostly stupid, they are in the news and in the conversation. If people stop caring, that may be the biggest shake up of all. Maybe create some real change. Anger isn’t cutting it because the organization probably believes that no matter how mad they make us today, we will love them tomorrow. Indifference can be powerful and much harder to overcome. I’m there. I’m not hopeful. I’m not mad. It’s easier to stop caring and move on.”

We're starting to see some apathy creep in. We couldn't even give away tickets to fill the RC for our one ACC game.

I fear UR80sfan is probably right. Maybe we're just a program that pays s****y MEAC and Big South teams to come and play in front of meager crowds (and occasionally embarrass us) on our home court. If that's acceptable to the decision-makers, then more will move on.

 

[AnnapSpider]

I see the firing of Gill and subsequent hiring of Hardt as AD, practice facility, admission of JUCO player for football, as a positive stride in that direction. These facilities, athletic-administration alignment, are all important steps we are taking to move us in the right direction. I see a president, BOT, major donors, athletic director who are all getting on the same page and making the necessary changes needed. These athletic improvements not only can coexist with the academic advancements we have made, but as I mentioned previously with the “Flutie Effect” can bolster the academic side.

At the end of the day, I think we all have a lot more commonalities in our aspirations for Spider sports than differences. I think for many of us Spider fans who have been adamant with a coaching change is not due to an unsubstantiated dislike for Mooney, but rather seeing through years of coaching he is not someone who can elevate our program to the level we wish it to be. A lot of the perceived “negativity” is more frustration and a way to vent more than anything else. It’s frustrating because as a program we have a lot of the necessary requisites to build a top level program, but we aren’t achieving our potential. While all the amenities alluded to in the previous paragraph are beneficial, undoubtedly the biggest impact to turning things around is with a coaching change. Many of us have been patient over the years, but coming off a 12-20 season, and a 6-7 OOC in the easiest OOC schedule we have had in a long time, there isn’t a lot to be overtly positive about. That’s not to say that we can’t be happy with player improvements, seeing the team do well on the court, or want success this season. I just think many of us believe that we have hit a plateau under Mooney and keeping him as a coaching will only prolong this perpetual state of mediocrity. Some fear they by winning many of these games against IUPUI or St. Francis caliber teams, is not a true indicator of progress or better things to come, but rather a facade masked by beating inferior opponents that will justify the administrations decision to refrain from making a coaching change.

I see the passion many of our fans on this board, social media, at the games, etc have and think it is a huge testament to how great of a fan base we have. I am proud to be part of such a fervent group of fans and alums that want to see our school be the best we can be in all facets - athletics, academics, arts, etc.

Just an FYI- we used to take JUCO football players on a regular basis. I don’t know when it changed but
A great deal of our success in the late 60’s and 70’s were due to this fact. Possibly when they split D-1 into two subdivisions it made it more difficult.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Wait a minute, I just re-read the thread title - you tricked us all!

So you're saying Mooney's going to get extended, then he's going to leave anyway?

 

[Gospiders06]

I can only imagine attendance and everything hit zero if Mooney stays another 3 or 4 years.

 

[97spiderfan]

Attendance will never hit that low. Our ticket prices are so affordable and we basically give tickets away to anyone with children for free to every game. Cheapest family night out in town, we have that market cornered.

 

[afroeman]

I will always love my Spiders and pull for them no matter what but if either Mooney or Schaefer is retained after this year, I'm done supporting the administration with my financial support. Do not field a team if you do not want to field a team that performs their best and represents the school well - and that includes the coaches. If they are retained, it shows that athletics are not important nor or the individuals on those teams. And that would then be ENTIRELY on the adminstration.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I will cheer on the Spiders regardless of coach, but here is why I think Mooney has a higher probability getting contract extension then leaving early.

1. The university is not a democracy, It is controlled by the administration, board of trustees and major donors that have a lot of high priorities. I have never heard the president of the University mention that basketball was one of the top priorities.

2. The number one goal of the administration is academics and this applies to athletics. The administration puts great value on running a clean program made up of good students. The president of the University has complimented Mooney for how he runs the program in this regard.

3. The administration has very different views on what a successful basketball season looks like than people on this forum including me. My guess is that they think Mooney has done an acceptable job over time. He has fairly consistently been in the top half of the A10, including 5th place last year. I do not think it is a goal of this administration to have a top 50 program that competes for an NCAA bid each year.

4. The bar to get fired is much higher when it requires breaking a contract. It is a large expenses that is not in the budget. It might require funding outside of the annual fund which would be very difficult to obtain.

5. We have had 3 straight very good recruiting classes with a lot of very young high quality players on the team. The team has the potential to have very good seasons the next 2 years and be in the hunt to make the NCAAs both of those years. This is perfect timing for Mooney, because it is when the university needs to make a decision relative to extending the contract.

Agree with all except 4 and some of 5.

The days are gone in college basketball where you can let a coach's contract run out. No coach will coach under those conditions and you are hurting your own program because no recruit will come within a 100 miles of your campus if they know your coach has less than 4 years left on their current deal. So the expense of firing a coach these days will always include a buyout or paying the remaining years - so you should be budgeting or should have budgeted for this in the first place.

Recruiting classes - this can work both ways. It can help Mooney as you say, or it might be seen as the best time to bring in new blood with a new coach. They will have a young team and talent to build around. Think about when Wainwright took over - difference circumstances, since JB left for more money at WVU, but we have a good team returning. First season under JW team struggled to learn new system, but year 2 we were back in NCAAs. I could see that with a new coach at this point. Year 1 is a transition year, then year 2 they are all on same page and making a run.

I do agree though- i get the feeling academics is most important, and Mooney, aside from wins and losses, is an ideal fit for UR. Other schools - where sports are held in higher regard, he probably would have been let go after last season. But I think he wins enough this year to get extension and keep him around. And I don't doubt we make the NCAA in 2 years - IF - no big names transfer out like last season (fore and Buckingham).

 

[wr70beh]

Attendance will never hit that low. Our ticket prices are so affordable and we basically give tickets away to anyone with children for free to every game. Cheapest family night out in town, we have that market cornered.

That's why all of those little VCU kids come to the UR game, cause they couldn't get into the Siegel Center otherwise

 

[SpiderTrap]

Ticket prices show you where the two programs stand. I believe on most nights in the Robins Center - you can get $5 tickets (or maybe $10 tickets now).

Across town in the Siegel Center - cheapest ticket is $25 on some nights, and usually $45 on most nights. And this can also be a STANDING ROOM ONLY Ticket!!!!

 

[nathanw19]

Ticket prices show you where the two programs stand. I believe on most nights in the Robins Center - you can get $5 tickets (or maybe $10 tickets now).

Across town in the Siegel Center - cheapest ticket is $25 on some nights, and usually $45 on most nights. And this can also be a STANDING ROOM ONLY Ticket!!!!

It’s also a product of VCU having an enrollment of 24k and Richmond having an enrollment of 3k, and the difference in the amount of alumni that goes with those numbers.

But yes, VCU is in a better place basketball wise than we are right now. And it sucks.

 

[FrontRoyalSpider]

Meanwhile doen on Broad Street they laughing.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I hate the argument of they have a lot more local alumni than us. You could say that about pretty much every school in the state. So your telling me that every fan that goes to a VCU game is an alumni? All 7600 of them - I don't think so. So how do they fill it up and charge more prices? Some of the main factors

1) Winning - this cures all. If your winning - people will come.
2) Students - in college sports, students make or break the atmosphere. If you have a full student section who chants, is loud, heckles the opponent, and is generally just fun to watch what they will do next - then the rest of the crowd will usually join in an follow. This has nothing to do with size either. Sure - they have a bigger pool to pick from, but your telling me we can't get 100-150 students to show up and be loud each game??? But then again - see 1 - winning cures all.
3) Employees - your not only trying to attract students, but also your employees. I am not sure what discount if any they receive, but if you get your employees to show up this not only shows support for the school, but also they tend to bring other outsiders to the game as well.
4) Schedule - do you play good teams. Our OOC schedule was weak this year, so that has an effect as well.
5) Arena - this has become less and less important because honestly, majority of colleges are in an arms race to have the latest and greatest home gym. I bet in the A10 if you look around, every school is doing some sort of renovation or change to their arena every 2-3 years. Some are major, some are minor - but I think 1) Winning and 2) Students are the main drivers.

 

[Eight Legger]

Employee tickets are half price, and there's a pretty frequent push through email to reach them.

 

[wr70beh]

Employee tickets are half price, and there's a pretty frequent push through email to reach them.

That's how we get our tickets. 2 for the price of 1. At least 3 or 4 of my wife's department have season tickets. The deans get freebies I think.

That and free gym access for her (and for me) and it's a pretty good gig.

 

[bullfrog91]

I hate the argument of they have a lot more local alumni than us. You could say that about pretty much every school in the state. So your telling me that every fan that goes to a VCU game is an alumni? All 7600 of them - I don't think so. So how do they fill it up and charge more prices? Some of the main factors

1) Winning - this cures all. If your winning - people will come.
2) Students - in college sports, students make or break the atmosphere. If you have a full student section who chants, is loud, heckles the opponent, and is generally just fun to watch what they will do next - then the rest of the crowd will usually join in an follow. This has nothing to do with size either. Sure - they have a bigger pool to pick from, but your telling me we can't get 100-150 students to show up and be loud each game??? But then again - see 1 - winning cures all.
3) Employees - your not only trying to attract students, but also your employees. I am not sure what discount if any they receive, but if you get your employees to show up this not only shows support for the school, but also they tend to bring other outsiders to the game as well.
4) Schedule - do you play good teams. Our OOC schedule was weak this year, so that has an effect as well.
5) Arena - this has become less and less important because honestly, majority of colleges are in an arms race to have the latest and greatest home gym. I bet in the A10 if you look around, every school is doing some sort of renovation or change to their arena every 2-3 years. Some are major, some are minor - but I think 1) Winning and 2) Students are the main drivers.

Agree, but you cant overlook enrollmwnt and alumni base as a huge factor....that said, winning cures all.

 

[VT4700]

It’s also a product of VCU having an enrollment of 24k and Richmond having an enrollment of 3k, and the difference in the amount of alumni that goes with those numbers.

But yes, VCU is in a better place basketball wise than we are right now. And it sucks.

We had our worse year in a long time last year, and still beat them twice.

 

[Eight Legger]

They also had their worst year in a long time last year, so it wasn't really much to celebrate. I'd rather beat them than lose to them, of course.

 

[GKiller]

We had our worse year in a long time last year, and still beat them twice.

What is Mooney’s all-time record vs VCU these days? Serious inquiry. It’s improved after the sweep I know that.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

We had our worse year in a long time last year, and still beat them twice.

Squirrel!

 

[VT4700]

What is Mooney’s all-time record vs VCU these days? Serious inquiry. It’s improved after the sweep I know that.

The post I referred to was comparing them right now. So, looking at the most recent games, we swept them last year.