No.
But one improvement may be that the floor is higher than it was before. That’s also speculative still but simply retaining most of the last two groups would be an improvement over the two before that.
UR Apparently Ready to Make Long Term Commitment to Mediocrity?
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But one improvement may be that the floor is higher than it was before. That’s also speculative still but simply retaining most of the last two groups would be an improvement over the two before that.
From this list, I get:
A-10 starter level players: Golden, Sherod, Buck, Gilyard, Cayo, Francis, and Burton
A-10 quality reserve level players: Goose and Woj
Lower end roster fillers: Sal, Grace
Busts: Verbinkis, Ford, Schneider
TBD: Crabtree
For a 4 year class, this is a definite improvement for Mooney over previous classes. Still, you have 33% of his recruited players being guys who probably won't make a major contribution on the court.
Every coach is going to have busts and guys who don't pan out, 33% is still a bit high on that scale but I think if we would have done this 4 years ago, that miss rate was probably around 50-60%.
Get it down to 20% and I think we build a consistent winner and NCAA caliber program.
I will add a major bonus in Mooney's corner is that he doesn't lose good players to transfer and that makes up for some of his recruiting misses. Buck is the only meaningful player we have lost in a long while and that wasn't Mooney's fault.
I could see a contract extension looking like this. Total contract 10 years, amount undisclosed(assume 1.5M per year). At the 5 year mark UR can have a 2M buyout.
Also, you get 500k bonus for each NCAA tourney you make, and 100k for each win in the NCAA tourney. This should give Mooney the 10 year announcement he will crave, the school some protection after year 5 if things are not going great, and performance incentives galore for dancing.
Also, you get 500k bonus for each NCAA tourney you make, and 100k for each win in the NCAA tourney. This should give Mooney the 10 year announcement he will crave, the school some protection after year 5 if things are not going great, and performance incentives galore for dancing.
Nah, a caller to Black and Drew asked Hardt about that 10 year contract IIRC, and Hardt made sure it was known that was not his fault. Doubt we are going to see another 10 year deal.
Quite sure we aren't going to make the 10 year contract mistake twice. When Mooney signed that he was off back to back NCAA's and a Sweet 16 bid and was the getting request for interviews from multiple BCS programs. He had maximum leverage.
8 years later, we have yet to return to the NCAA and no BCS programs are calling. Mooney has no suitors, ergo he really has no leverage.
He'll get a year or two extension, probably no raises (due to Covid) but most likely bonuses for on court performance, and I would assume some buyout protection clause for the University. That would be a win-win for both parties.
Biggest issue w last contract is there was no buy out. Like the NFL the total duration of the contract is not what matters it is the guarantee(in this case 5 years or 3 beyond current) w a 2M buy out option.
I agree with you on this point but just wanted clarification on Kwan Fore. Are we not counting grad transfers?
Great things are ahead, the next step is the best, strong character builds strong teams. Need I say more... Oh and strong contracts make strong relationships.
Hardt was quite explicit that the 10-year extension was absurd, and would not happen again.
If you look back at the comments, prognosticators .... we were really on the bubble and if I recall most had us out, right?
LOONARDI had us out until his final pre-covid bracket I believe, and then had us in - which Nostradamus23 had predicted for months
. A lot could happen in that final week and the A10 tournament. I was certainly hopeful with a couple wins in the A10 tourney we were in. Also thought we had a decent shot to win the tourney. But we were definitely bubble. Hopefully with all the work out restrictions our guys found a way to improve - I think SLU and Dayton with Crutcher will be very good again.
your "lower end" guys were both getting time on a really good A10 team. so they're far from busts, they're contributing, and they're still improving.
and importantly, the guys that didn't pan out have been or are being replaced.
as for the contract, this current recruiting class we're working on graduates in 2025. an extension will go that far at a minimum. to 2026 is more likely.
Can we just make him Coach For Life, and end this discussion? Now that the bar has been lowered over the last few years, I have grown accustomed to mediocrity (NOT being sarcastic). If every now and then we have a good team, that's just a bonus!
I would say Sal and Grace are 100% busts at this point. Both are dreadful when they go in the game and look like a crazed fan that ran on the court. Maybe they’ll improve but they’re playing minutes because we had nobody else, not because they’re A-10 players in my opinion
to me, they're solid backups. I'm not ready to make either a starter anytime soon. hopefully Weir is ready by sophomore year.
Probably the truth is in between. We definitely don’t have much in the way if alternatives at the “forward” spots (see, I didn’t call them 4/5). So those guys are getting time because the only other alternative is to go small, perhaps other than playing Burton.
to me, they're solid backups. I'm not ready to make either a starter anytime soon. hopefully Weir is ready by sophomore year.
I don’t think they’re incapable, but I don’t think either qualifies as a solid backup. I think they’re ok at keeping it together but there’s a marked drop off in both offensive and defensive effectiveness. And for the record, they will improve, part of the issue is you’re relying on those guys as key reserves when they’re 1st/2nd year players when you should have some reserves who are 3rd/4th year guys.
Good point. Loved Khwan. I forgot about him in my analysis. I was also going to reference ANO but not sure if his loss was as much of a loss as we thought it was going to be.
Agreed. I hope both Grace and Sal do improve, but at this point, we can't and shouldn't count on them to make big plays during games, because they haven't. There are moments where they "hold their own", there are also moments when the opposition feasts upon them. I think Sal has potential to be an impactful player for us, but he has not shown us that yet. He needs to show that this year.
If they are our 12th and 13th guy on the roster, I have little problem with that. They just can't be 8th and 9th guy on our roster.
if they were the 12th and 13th, they'd never play. a garbage can can be the 13th.
Matt and Sal's best 2 years are ahead of them. we went 24-7 with them as sophomores.
if Weir beats them out, we're even better. but we don't know what we have there yet.
Matt and Sal's best 2 years are ahead of them. we went 24-7 with them as sophomores.
if Weir beats them out, we're even better. but we don't know what we have there yet.
LOONARDI had us out until his final pre-covid bracket I believe, and then had us in - which Nostradamus23 had predicted for months
Hopefully with all the work out restrictions our guys found a way to improve - I think SLU and Dayton with Crutcher will be very good again.
Improving could be very difficult, how are you playing basketball in this new world? Conditioning yeah, basic skills (shooting, ball handling etc ) maybe but maintaining competitive edge, touch, etc don't know how that's possible.
I get your point but it seems like a bit of a weird analysis. In a relatively stable program, those guys at 11/12/13 aren’t garbage cans, they’re freshmen. Of course there will invariably be freshmen who are higher in the pecking order and conversely, upperclassmen who are lower because they just don’t have it, but my sense is we’ve grown accustomed to having such an irrationally young roster that’s we overlook this.
I’m still optimistic that both Matt and sal will be valuable contributors, and overall hopeful that our depth is getting to a point where we aren’t so dependent on underclassman minutes.
JOC must get a ton of clicks when he runs these articles. Seems like it would probably make sense for the University to establish how many kids will be come back to school in the fall and the related income first ... then, based on that information, figure out if they'll have to 'restructure' any job roles or benefits programs and other operational overhead before long-term contract extensions to sports coaches are doled out.
Were there more than a small handful of P6 jobs that opened in the offseason? Many extensions handed out across the country? I've been reading more about budget and program cuts than anything like this.
Were there more than a small handful of P6 jobs that opened in the offseason? Many extensions handed out across the country? I've been reading more about budget and program cuts than anything like this.
Grace and Sal had the 9th and 10th most minutes on the team this year, so I am not sure what people that question them expect them to be. They are not starters and never have been, and have never really been counted on to score for us.
Grace is definitely not a bust. Not even close. He was and is a very good back up to Grant. We ask a lot out of Grant, and he is a very special player, one of our best ever, so of course there will be a drop off when his reserve comes in. Grace was able to at least do many of the things Grant does on offense and defense, just not as well of course. What I mean by that is we did not have to change things on offense when Grace came in, which is important because it lets everyone else stay comfortable and do their thing while Grant is out. And, he did better and better on defense, like Grant has done, with experience.
Sal is a little more unproven, but it is hard to call him a 100% bust. I don't think he was ever comfortable backing up Grant, and this showed late in the year when he made a few more mistakes, and Grace had clearly beaten him out, resulting in Sal only getting about 3.5 minutes a game the last 8 games. I think Mooney did a good job getting them both some minutes for several games until one guy separated himself from the other as Grant's back up. Now that Grace has shown that, and with the addition of Weir, it makes sense for Sal to not have to worry about learning all the things Grant's spot has to do, and just focus more on improving his game. Think of Cayo. He would be a totally different player if he were backing up Grant, and would not have been able to improve other parts of his game as well. So, the best thing for Sal would be to learn behind Cayo this year. Cayo has improved so much, maybe Sal could as well.
This. Sal isn’t suited to do what our Center/Point Forward/ChooseYourPpositionName does. He should progress better doing a role comparable to Nate’s.
If these guys played for any other school you would think they’re busts. Simple as that. You see the Spiders through Homer-glasses which is ok, but your inability to allow any criticism and think our awful players are somehow good just makes this conversation not possible.
You are correct that Sal is not a bust yet. Perhaps he’ll bulk up and be able to put things together. But Grace without a doubt it. He should be playing maybe 20 minutes a season. It is clear when he is on the floor that we are going to be incoherent on offense and defense. The delusion is just unreal here.
I think the view is Grace didn't take the role of ANO, Cline or Golden, but that he took the role of Friendshuh, Abakah, and Madrid-Andrews and did it better than any of those three.
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Both of these guys would start on several CAA teams. I think they fill our bench admirably.
No, I really would not consider them busts on another team. They are what they are. Reserves. Every team has them. Some reserves are needed to score, some are not. Some reserves play a lot. Some don't. I think it comes down to what one thinks the definition of a bust is, and what one thinks these players should do for us. I think a bust is a guy we counted on to be one our key players, but did not pan out. Maybe a guy like Solly, who was talked about as a very key piece and started for a few games, but did very little. When have we ever expected Sal or Grace to be key guys for us?
We can just disagree on Grace. No worries. But, I don't think he hurts us at all when out there. Great bigs like Grant are very special at our level, and it is even harder to find a decent back up big. I don't expect a back up mid major big to come in and be the guy and start looking like he should be starting. I expect some drop off, especially when compared to Grant, and especially when he comes into the game with a lot of other scorers on the floor. I think we have a decent to good back up in Grace, and would call him a pleasant surprise as a back up, and you would call him a bust. We are far apart here, but all good. We can disagree.
I personally like them both in their role, but I think Sal better not worry about backing up Cayo. he needs to focus on being the best backup 5 he can be to beat out Grace and Weir behind Grant this year. because Burton's taking all the non-Cayo minutes at the 4.
yeah, I said 4.
yeah, I said 4.
Tend to agree. As much as I wanted Burton to become a "3" , with Crabtree and Dji, probably is most valuable at the "4".
, with Crabtree and Dji, probably is most valuable at the "4".
There’s no room at the inn for sal to play the 5. He has to focus on more of a 4 role and hope that he can get some minutes when Burton slides down to more of a 3.I personally like them both in their role, but I think Sal better not worry about backing up Cayo. he needs to focus on being the best backup 5 he can be to beat out Grace and Weir behind Grant this year. because Burton's taking all the non-Cayo minutes at the 4.
yeah, I said 4.
I agree that’s a long shot but it’s a way better shot than trying to remold sal into something he’s definitely not.
Love our bench. Great role players. Grace plays a role and plays it very well. Ignore the folks on here who don't see that if you are reading this MG. Love having you in a Spider uniform.
Damn way over the top ply. Mooney is a highly paid pro that hasn’t been to ncaa since 2011, that kind of criticism comes w territory. Grace is a backup on a 24-7 team & what is expected to be our best team in history. That takes him up to his senior year. Keep it w that he garbage bust talk about 20 year student athletes at your alma mater. U can be critical just think there is much different code than there is w a Mooney or Hardt etc.
Plus Grace is solid on O. He’s 5th option to score but the O flows which is most important. If he can improve more on D he can take another step. Keep at it Grace there is respect for your game & contributions by many.
Plus Grace is solid on O. He’s 5th option to score but the O flows which is most important. If he can improve more on D he can take another step. Keep at it Grace there is respect for your game & contributions by many.
