Miller on the Mooney hire

[spiderman]

Regardless of whether Mooney should have been fired or not years ago and the reasons why he had not been fired, the fact of the matter is he is our coach right now.

the "opportunity" to fire Mooney was after the 12-20 year ending in 2018, or the 13-20 year ending in 2019.
I felt at the time it was too expensive in 2018 with how many years were left on the contract.
and in 2019, I felt like he had reset the path to success with his recruiting. things were looking up and sure enough we were good the next season. I was good with sticking with him there.

there's nothing in the past 5 years to justify firing Mooney if we weren't willing to bite that bullet in 2018. the program is in good shape.

 

[GKiller]

The performance metrics need to change. Why are they the same for a 20 year coach...shouldn't they go up?

I just find it strange that real metrics like NCAAs and VCU r ignored. Especially when u consider the things Mooney gets credit for we accomplished with all 3 out 4 previous coaches at UR. Dooley being expecption but he did some things well too and great guy as well. And when the school told us the move to A10 was about other metrics like the NCAA, now it's like they forgot that.

I agree with Wood that the school primarily looks at these...they r important but they r built into UR at this point.
Competitive program - since Tarrant
clean program - since Tarrant, tho I believe under Mooney is only time a major infraction
players graduating - when is last 4 year player to not graduate? Hard not to do. Regular students same way at UR. Arguably easier for athletes with free summer sessions. Our APR is high, always has been, & will be post Moon.
players not embarrassing the University - Mooney might do this the best
occasional NCAA berth - Yes, but Mooney does this the worst
decent attendance - always the case. Higher actually pre Moon but different era and demographics at play

U will have exceptions here & there but these r really expected minimum requirements. But again they were met for 20 years pre Moon. Moon has continued those and no u don't take them for granted, but they r cultural for the school and program regardles of coach imo.

 

[spiderstudent17]

All good points, but if you giving him an A-, you have to consider the 8 year period between 2011 and 2019, when we made 0 NCAA and only 2 NIT's.

I do agree that things seem to be on an upswing but I also think there is a recency bias in your grading. I'd have him more at a C+, maybe with the past few years and where the program is right now, I could push that up to a B-. But 3 NCAA's over 19 years, no way is that an A- grade.

Agree. My A- was the timeframe from the 2019-2020 season to now. Overall, the 19 years he's been here, I give him a B-.

the "opportunity" to fire Mooney was after the 12-20 year ending in 2018, or the 13-20 year ending in 2019.
I felt at the time it was too expensive in 2018 with how many years were left on the contract.
and in 2019, I felt like he had reset the path to success with his recruiting. things were looking up and sure enough we were good the next season. I was good with sticking with him there.

there's nothing in the past 5 years to justify firing Mooney if we weren't willing to bite that bullet in 2018. the program is in good shape.

I agree with you that 2018 and 2019 was the season to fire him. We did not. I also agree the last 5 years he has done very well and that the program is looking much better. That's why I mentioned the A- grade the past 5 years and want to keep this forward momentum going, rather than thinking about the past. What's done is done. We could've fired him 7-8 years ago but did not. Now because of new practice facility, loosening of academic requirements, new staff, NIL/portal era, or whatever has changed, he is doing a lot better with recruiting and results on the court.

 

[spiderstudent17]

I don't really like the argument that very few teams make the NCAA tournament every year or a consistent basis - therefore - we are not able to do so.

How did VCU climb that mountain? And I am not picking on VCU because they are our rival - I am picking on them because they followed the same exact path to the A10 as we did. Played in CAA for many years. Was generally a good CAA team. Moved up to A10. Same city and geographic location. VCU was in the CAA for 17 years and made the NCAA tourney 5 times - with one of them being the final four season. UR - while a member of the CAA for 16 years - made the tourney 5 times as well. With some Giant Killer upsets along the way.

Yet - we both make the jump to the A10 and we make it less in the A10 than we did in the CAA, and VCU on the other hand has turned into a tourney team every year or every other year schedule. Is it difficult - yes. Does it take buy from the administration - yes. Can it be done - yes. And maybe the transfer portal will really help us - especially with admissions. Maybe they will look better upon kids who have completed 2 years of college and survived, rather than take a chance on a HS kid with just okay grades. Maybe this is the turning point.

I think we both might be agreeing on the same idea, just looking at it differently. The expectation should be to make the NCAAs and strive for things that VCU has achieved in terms of results and NCAA appearances. I don't want us to settle for a 20-14 season and say that is "good" just because we hit this arbitrary 20 win marker, but I also don't think we should look at a season and say it was a "failure" because we didn't make the NCAAs. That's where the nuance comes in and where I highlighted examples from '15, '17, '20, '24 where I believe the administration viewed that as a good season despite us not making the NCAA tournament.

 

[8legs1dream]

Another way to think about my NCAA point. Let’s say in 2019-2020 we finished the regular season with a 26-8 record (losing in the A10 championship) and we were left out of the NCAAs because the committee decided to put an 18-14 Mississippi State as an at-large. Should that take away from our great season? NCAA appearance IS the most important thing in my book, but we (and all mid majors) are climbing an uphill battle here. That’s why it should be a little more nuanced than whether we make the NCAAs or not and look at the larger body of work in the season. Same with beating VCU. I hate losing to VCU and want us to beat them every game. I also hate the excuse that because they are a larger school and have easier academics we can’t “compete” with them. Bottom line is we are in the same conference as them and the expectation should be to beat them in recruiting battles and on-the court. But if we lost twice to them one year and finished 24-9 and win the regular season championship and missed out on the NCAA, would that be a failure of a season? In my eyes, no.

if beating VCU is as important to you as you say that makes your A grade even more dubious.

 

[GKiller]

there's nothing in the past 5 years to justify firing Mooney if we weren't willing to bite that bullet in 2018. the program is in good shape.

But nobody is calling for his firing right now. as I've said I want Mooney and team to crush it & will be behind them. Nobody roots against him, or its a tiny minority. But if u go 24-25 season without another NCAA and move to 3 for 20 u should be on hot seat. That's me. No doubt. I'm sorry 3 for 20 and 9-25 vs VCU does not get it done. At some point u just say hey another guy gets his chance here with all our resources to succeed. we gave him 20 years there's nothing more we owe, plenty of patience plenty of resources given. It's not how a highly selective school that expects a lot out of its students should operate. But that's also a higher ed problem at large I grant u.

Also the shape of a program changes every year now, that is less relevant imo. Should be less job security for lot of coaches due to the systemic changes.

After 24-25 is the crucial decision. Because then he has 2 years left. That is normally the extend or not timeframe. I would not be shocked if the school extends him before this season starts btw. But a real school with real standards and real expectations has to wait. and he wouldn't get fired for 25-26 either. maybe he would for 26-27 with 1 more year if things decline. So the lifetime contract jokes have merit. They extend and then it becomes the same crap we dealt with in past - too many years on contract to dismiss. Wait it out and get real results. But we won't, just watch. To me there is little risk waiting when things r really on a 1-2 year cycle these days.

 

[8legs1dream]

I think most of us have accepted that he is coach for life, he is only leaving under his own terms. Still that isn't enough for the Cult of Mooney somehow.

 

[spiderstudent17]

if beating VCU is as important to you as you say that makes your A grade even more dubious.

Of course it’s important and I hope everyone think it’s important. My point in previous posts in this thread is that people put a lot of weight on the VCU record. To be clear, it’s not a good record against them and we shouldn’t be happy losing to them. However, like my point about the NCAA, beating VCU is likely only one marker of a successful season in the eyes of the administration since we also play 30 other teams in a season. I think most of us would rather we go 28-6 and win A10 and be in the NCAA tournament and lose to VCU twice then go 12-20 and beat VCU twice in a season. Ideally, both go hand-in-hand, and if we’re beating VCU twice in a season, means we’re also a good team and will have a strong record. For me personally, it certainly factors into my overall grade of B- that I’ve given him over the past 19 years.