Official hot seat thread Mooney
- Thread starter Gospiders06
- Start date
I still think there is a good chance there is no buyout and Mooney will be owed full contract amount. I just know on this board people think there is a buyout - and all I am saying is - if there is a buyout - then safe to assume it is no lower than half his salary for each year remaining.
Mooney was given extension to 23-24 in Fall of 2020. Previous season 2019-2020 - team was 24-7 and very good shot of NCAA if not cancelled for COVID. So he did have some leverage there, and COVID helped him - I am sure his agent told UR - if you don't give this extension with the same guarantee as before - it will look terrible on the school, and with us entering uncertainty in COVID - you need a coach. Not to mention - he had everyone basically returning from that team so they were no doubt selling the future is bright here.
I am guessing Mooney's crew was asking for a long extension - maybe 4 years, to take him through next recruiting class, but maybe the school countered with - we will guarantee it - but only 2 years. Very possible in my mind. To think he had no leverage at all after a "bubble" season and with a Pandemic looming - is bad thinking. Did UR have the upper hand - yes. But remember who you are dealing with as well - our administration, not the smartest. And I think after that season as well - Queally was very much in Mooney's corner. So I still think he has guaranteed money in there to full extent with no buyout - but for argument sake, if you think a buyout was put in there - then I have no way of imagining its less than $500K per year.
Yes - buyouts do exist in contracts. I just don't think they exist in this one. But its a moot point - UR will never release it. Even if they fire Mooney tomorrow, they will never say what they did or did not pay him to leave. It will be anyone's guess. But if you see Mooney driving a Lambo around town shortly after getting fired.......use your imagination.
Mooney was given extension to 23-24 in Fall of 2020. Previous season 2019-2020 - team was 24-7 and very good shot of NCAA if not cancelled for COVID. So he did have some leverage there, and COVID helped him - I am sure his agent told UR - if you don't give this extension with the same guarantee as before - it will look terrible on the school, and with us entering uncertainty in COVID - you need a coach. Not to mention - he had everyone basically returning from that team so they were no doubt selling the future is bright here.
I am guessing Mooney's crew was asking for a long extension - maybe 4 years, to take him through next recruiting class, but maybe the school countered with - we will guarantee it - but only 2 years. Very possible in my mind. To think he had no leverage at all after a "bubble" season and with a Pandemic looming - is bad thinking. Did UR have the upper hand - yes. But remember who you are dealing with as well - our administration, not the smartest. And I think after that season as well - Queally was very much in Mooney's corner. So I still think he has guaranteed money in there to full extent with no buyout - but for argument sake, if you think a buyout was put in there - then I have no way of imagining its less than $500K per year.
Yes - buyouts do exist in contracts. I just don't think they exist in this one. But its a moot point - UR will never release it. Even if they fire Mooney tomorrow, they will never say what they did or did not pay him to leave. It will be anyone's guess. But if you see Mooney driving a Lambo around town shortly after getting fired.......use your imagination.
There seems to be some confusion about what people meant by "no buyout". Some were arguing that it meant we could let Mooney go and pay him nothing. I remember 23 and Eight Legger saying along the lines that there better not be one because Mooney had no leverage at the time of the extension.
That's obviously the opposite of what you're talking about, Trap, where "no buyout" means no lower number and instead we have to pay him full salary.
That's obviously the opposite of what you're talking about, Trap, where "no buyout" means no lower number and instead we have to pay him full salary.
3 scenarios.
1) No buyout and no guarantee. No way this exists - no coach in their right mind would ever sign it.
2) Buyout - School and Coach agree to amount in contract that if we fire you with years remaining - this is what we will pay you. And it could be a sliding scale based on years left when fired. Some coaches have these - but I believe they have become less the norm.
3) No buyout, fully guaranteed. If we fire you (without cause of course) - you get the full amount of your remaining contract. Only caveat to this is I have heard some schools add a clause that states if you take another coaching job, we will only pay you the difference in salary. So if Mooney makes 1 million at UR, gets fired with 2 years left on his deal - but then takes a job coaching Princeton, and they pay him 500K a year - UR only owes him 500K for the next 2 years to make up difference from Princeton job. I would not be surprised if that is in contract from the start, either way - coach gets full money.
I think Mooney's deal is 3 - he is fully guaranteed.
1) No buyout and no guarantee. No way this exists - no coach in their right mind would ever sign it.
2) Buyout - School and Coach agree to amount in contract that if we fire you with years remaining - this is what we will pay you. And it could be a sliding scale based on years left when fired. Some coaches have these - but I believe they have become less the norm.
3) No buyout, fully guaranteed. If we fire you (without cause of course) - you get the full amount of your remaining contract. Only caveat to this is I have heard some schools add a clause that states if you take another coaching job, we will only pay you the difference in salary. So if Mooney makes 1 million at UR, gets fired with 2 years left on his deal - but then takes a job coaching Princeton, and they pay him 500K a year - UR only owes him 500K for the next 2 years to make up difference from Princeton job. I would not be surprised if that is in contract from the start, either way - coach gets full money.
I think Mooney's deal is 3 - he is fully guaranteed.
Yeah that wasn't me and not what I'm referring to. Thread here. Your post #38 but others involved too. anyway just one of those things I remembered bc I found so strange. In fact the link you just posted came from me back then.
https://richmond.forums.rivals.com/threads/early-a10-coy-question.12025/
They are certainly not universal but I can tell u they have not become less norm, the trend is the opposite. I know a number of people in that business including 1 who has dealt with contracts directly & even with U of R (not Mooney).
I don't know what Mooney has, so you're right he could be fully guaranteed. But if he is, it would be athletic administration incompetence at the highest level factoring his relative position to ours during last extension.
There was no need for us to extend Mooney at all. He could have simply continued coaching on his existing contract or left if he had a better offer (which he didn't). So the reason it's conceivable that there might be no buyout, or at least only a small one, is because we were doing Mooney a favor to extend him. We didn't have to do it. There was really no reason to do it. We did it to be nice and give him a way to recruit kids by saying "Hey, I have a 4-year contract!"
If he was going to demand a big buyout on the extra two years, Hardt should have just said, "Ok, we'll just revisit this next year" and walked away. What was Mooney going to do, quit? Take a job coaching Freeman High School? HE HAD NO LEVERAGE.
Right, what was Hardt to do? We know Hardt is a puppet, so even though this makes all the sense in the world, maybe daddy warbucks had Hardt work in a nice parachute.
just for reference, this is what I said on post #38 on 1/8/20 so nobody has to look for it:
my understanding is that the salary part of a college basketball coach's compensation is guaranteed. no discount upon termination. that's market. other income, for example performance bonuses and coaches shows, goes away. and no coach who has any alternatives would sign it any other way.
-----------
based on the link of salary and buyout date, it's not as consistant as I guessed. but most are 100% guaranteed for full compensation. that seems to be the norm. some are a percentage as low as 50%. a few guys like Bruce Weber are as low as 1 year of salary.
it's certainly possible we don't owe him 100% of the 2 years. it's not like he was in high demand. but there's no way he didn't get something when extended. nobody on this list has no buyout.
Keep Mooney and I suspect the school sees over $1 million in lost donations/ticket sales over the next couple years
Agree on the last part. I believe that was only Eight Legger saying we may not owe Mooney anything. I'd love it but no way. I agree with Legger on the leverage we had to ensure there was a buyout clause in contract extension but Mooney is definitely getting something if fired.
Anyway before u said it was all guaranteed now you are saying "of course there are buyouts" your tune has changed and that's good bc u were incorrect b4. i don't think I've misrepresented anything u said. The thread from a few years ago was only to prove that yes buyouts do exist. I never said they were the norm, at low level leagues with lower compensation u don't find them. But Buyouts are very far from abnormal they exist outside sports too. And as I mentioned above they are not becoming less norm, the trend is the opposite. That data is hard to get but if Goodman does a new one sometime I suspect it will be evident.
Has to be Schmidt. And he’s crazy if he goes to UMASS.
One can dream. That would be a fun thing to read a about, but would be a sprinkle hire at best.
Here is how I think the talk went with Mooney's, agent and Jabba.
Mooney and agent walk in - and explain to Jabba, we all know we had an NCAA team this year - we were 24-7, 14-4 and 2nd in the A10. Even some of the simulations have us making the sweet 16 and elite 8!!!! In a normal year my phone would be ringing and this extension and raise would have been done in April. But we understand times are uncertain with this pandemic and nobody knows what next season will hold. What I do know is I have everyone returning and we are going to be really good and if we don't do this extension and raise now - I will be gone after next season and you will have to explain how you let the all time winningest coach in UR History walk out the door.
Jabba - Chris, I understand where your coming from but no one knows for sure if you would have made the tourney. And COVID has really tighten the straps on the budget as we have no idea how severe this will be for the school and athletic department overall because of money. Therefore - given you didn't make the tourney cause there was none and money is tight - we can't do anything at this time. Your free to quit if you like - we see that you have no leverage whatsoever in this discussion.
Mooney and agent - no leverage! Are you serious Jabba. Everyone agrees we were a tourney team. But your right, this COVID thing is messing everything up. No jobs are open and no coaches are leaving. SO maybe I will walk out the door and just resign. I will tell Mr. O'Connor I had to quit because I was willing to take no raise and just asked for an extension to keep my able to recruit and the school said no. All time winningest coach, following an NCAA year, during a pandemic and its September with the season about to start and you want to roll the dice with Rob Jones as your head coach if I leave - cause we all know you will not be able to hire a coach before the season starts. Not to mention - what coach will want to come here ever again when they hear this is how you get treated after making the NCAA - you get NOTHING!!!
Phone Rings - Mooney answers - Hey Paul - are you still at the Tavern? Sorry I am running late - Jabba wants to give me no extension, says I have no leverage!!!! You want to speak to him - here you go.
Mooney and agent make offer - 4 year extension, same terms as current contract.
Jabba counters - 2 years, no buyout whatsoever - if we fire you, you get NOTHING.
Mooney and agent - 2 years, keep current terms. Fully guaranteed, And remember what Paul said on the phone - make Chris happy or the ATM of Queally bank shuts down for a while.
Now are Mooney and his agent willing to play this dirty and type of negotiations entering a pandemic, maybe not. But Mooney could have walked out - left team with no coach and ran straight to press and sold story "All I asked for was 2 year extension to keep my recruits happy and secure - its for the kids and this school repays me - all time winningest coach, never had a problem, all kids graduate, etc - with nothing. I know its COVID, this is why I said no raise - keep the money for the school and lets try to get this team to an NCAA and get more money for the school. But they said no and I just couldn't coach like that with that lack of commitment from the other side. I feel bad for the kids - they are the ones that suffer from this lack of commitment. I wish Rob Jones good luck this season and hope they succeed.
And Mooney runs off to the Tavern for beers with Queally, and the ATM machine shuts down for a few years.
Love how your PC or phone auto corrects Hardt to Jabba, mine does the same sometimes.
Schmidt is the only coach in the A10 worth that kind of money. UMass has been surprisingly horrific at high-level sports for the past two decades. Potentially a sleeping giant if they are serious about doing what's necessary.
yes, you're correct. there are more buyouts at less than 100% of compensation than I expected.
I believe the context which I was arguing was with people who felt we could eliminate the buyout by extending. that made no sense to me, basically giving the coach nothing.
I believe SBU coaches have gone to other A-10 schools twice.
But Schmidt has had much better offers...
Exactly - but 1.8 million is a lot of money for A10. Looked up Grant's salary - he makes 1.6 million at Dayton - so not enough there for him to consider a move. I think if a big school calls again and gives Grant 2.5 million - he is out the door.
Not sure how smart it was of the UMASS AD to announce publicly they were prepared to spend a lot of money. Now when the dollar amount comes out, everyone who interviews for the job has some leverage. Of course ultimately, if someone gets a low-ball offer, I guess he'll have to decide whether it's worth it to call their bluff or just take the job.
Most coaches already have leverage of knowing what you paid the previous coach, and more than likely they want the same amount or MORE cause they already know you can pay X amount, you paid it to the last guy.
But it will be something to keep an eye on because if UR is in fact looking for a new coach after this year, who UMASS hires and more importantly how much they pay will factor in our pay at UR. UMASS can't hire a new coach at 1.8 million and then we turn around and hire someone for 800K. While 800K is a good amount, with UMASS setting the bar so high, we will have to be over 1 million for the new coach if they settle on 1.8.
But it will be something to keep an eye on because if UR is in fact looking for a new coach after this year, who UMASS hires and more importantly how much they pay will factor in our pay at UR. UMASS can't hire a new coach at 1.8 million and then we turn around and hire someone for 800K. While 800K is a good amount, with UMASS setting the bar so high, we will have to be over 1 million for the new coach if they settle on 1.8.
I think it depends on the coach. There is a wide variation of salaries in the A-10 right now. UMass isn't just going to pay ANYBODY $1.8M – that will be for a top-level kind of guy, if they can get him. If we hire Aldrich from Longwood, we aren't going to have to pay him $1.8M. We could pay him $800K and it would more than quadruple his salary.
I am available for 759,000.23 per year. Three years 100% guaranteed. Car and clothes stipend. Meal per diem ~ 125.00 per day - I do get quite hungry sometimes. I will even go to the Tavern and knock a couple beers back with PQ - as long as he is paying - if required as part of the job. And promise not too call Hardt Jabba anymore.
agreed. we'd look at head coaches at lower levels or higher level assistants. in both cases, $800k would be a substantial raise. the only guy getting over $1M is the guy you choose to retain in his 2nd contract.
haha, no - one (or a few) step down from AAU - travel league in CT. I would put the level of play between middle school and AAU, but much more towards the middle school level. My one son's AAU coaches were really high level. One is a D3 coach that has been to NCAA's multiple times. Other former h.s. coach / college assistant that Calhoun used to send players to work out in offseason from UCONN. I stayed out of their way
Yes - it depends on the coach you bring in. But don't you think even a guy like Aldrich, who if Longwood makes it will probably receive interest from a couple schools would look at UR (Assuming we have interest) and say to himself - the last guy you had here made just over 1 million per year, UMASS probably would have hired someone and lets say they settle on 1.4 million on whoever they hire, and oh yeah - the coach down the road who kicks your butt all the time in the same city makes 1.5 million - so why should I come in at such a discount? I see a massive rebuild coming as your current guys don't really fit my system, so this could be a 4-5 year process where I as the coach carry all the risk. So why should I take less than 1 million per year when I know you can afford it? And I am receiving interest from other schools?
I agree 800K would be a major step up from Longwood, but they also know what the last coach made, and what others make as well. They negotiate to squeeze every dollar they can out of the school just in case it doesn't work out - they have a nice cushion to fall back on.
But it would not surprise me if UR goes bargain hunting and tries to hire someone for 700K or less with our next coach.
I agree 800K would be a major step up from Longwood, but they also know what the last coach made, and what others make as well. They negotiate to squeeze every dollar they can out of the school just in case it doesn't work out - they have a nice cushion to fall back on.
But it would not surprise me if UR goes bargain hunting and tries to hire someone for 700K or less with our next coach.
you're leverage is what someone else will pay you. not saying he's the guy, but someone like Aldrich probably makes like $150k - $200K at Longwood. you think he has leverage if we offered even $700k because of what we paid Mooney? you don't want the job ... sit by the phone and wait for Maryland to call. or stay at Longwood for $200k.
he'd jump at the chance to coach at UR.
he'd jump at the chance to coach at UR.
Yeah, exactly that. Anyone we offer $800k to is free to turn it down. But he probably won't be our coach, then.
Also, for the hell of it, let's say Mooney has a buyout of half his annual contract. That's about $650k a year. Pay a new guy $700k or $800k and you're basically not even increasing what you spend on the coaching position, so you can make the move, get better, and not have to spend much more to do it.
Also, for the hell of it, let's say Mooney has a buyout of half his annual contract. That's about $650k a year. Pay a new guy $700k or $800k and you're basically not even increasing what you spend on the coaching position, so you can make the move, get better, and not have to spend much more to do it.
If CM is jettisoned and our school saves money on the new coach's salary, the savings should be devoted to funding more scholarships in the non revenue sports. Ridiculous that with the school's resources we don't approach offering the NCAA scholarship max in many sports while claiming to be serious about being competitive athletically.
