Wichita State Game Thread - 11/17/2022

Eight Legger

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Embarrassing to lose to that team at home. Why anyone ever plays anything but a zone against us, I have no idea. Syracuse will beat us by 25 if we play like that, and they suck too.

There is no excuse for losing to a team that lost AT HOME to garbage like Alcorn State. As usual, we come out flat. As usual, we can't win more than 2 or 3 games in a row to start a season. Could easily be 4-0, but instead we're pretty much eliminating ourselves from at-large consideration in November. We need to sweep Brooklyn to change that, but of course that's not happening.
 
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POMSpidur

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May 26, 2022
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Maybe in the 40th year of coaching we can draw up a play there to at least have the ball moving toward the rim…
"Um yeah Bob, I think the team really competed tonight." Anyone else tired of hearing the same things over and over again. The players and fans deserve better than this.
We just watched Mooney bball without 5th and 6 year starters to offset his horrendous coaching. Against the zone we are always doomed. No idea how to break it and we settle for perimeter shots only.
Right on cue. Blame mooney. Beat VMI and UNI and think this is a good team…
I told you guys before the season your expectations were unrealistic, but somehow let’s blame mooney for shooting 8-29 from 3 and having 13 turnovers.
 
Aug 1, 2022
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Everybody seems to talk about us being bad against the zone. Over the past 3 years we are averaging 1.0+ point per possession against zone. Against man defense, while it has been very good and in the 90th percentile compared to other teams, it has not reached over 1.0 points per possessions. So, statistically, the offense has actually scored MORE and done BETTER against zone defenses. Just something to think about when we say that we can't score against the zone. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.
 
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nathanw19

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it won't. Mooney hit his NCAA Tournament quota and we will be mediocre for the next 10 years. Also, why was Bailey in during the late game stretch? Bring in your veteran in Goose to help execute instead of a guy who just had 4 minutes last game.
Outside of the end of game turnover, I thought Bailey did well. I didn’t see Goose as an upgrade last night the way both had been playing.
 

nathanw19

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Nelson has missed WAY too many easy shots.
He definitely has to improve his 3 point shooting. At this point he’s being left open until he proves otherwise.

However, his elbow pull up has looked really smooth (the limited times I’ve seen it). Need to get him going downhill into that mid range pull up more instead of settling for 3’s.
 

nathanw19

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Definitely the best I have seen in the last decade. The taunting at the end was unnecessary and tainted my perception slightly. Surprisingly, the refs let that go, perhaps as a makeup for the Shocker pull up session that also did not get a T.
The look down last maybe a second. I’m fine with guys showing emotions after a big play. It’s both natural and personally I find it entertaining.
 
Sep 9, 2021
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Definitely the best I have seen in the last decade. The taunting at the end was unnecessary and tainted my perception slightly. Surprisingly, the refs let that go, perhaps as a makeup for the Shocker pull up session that also did not get a T.
Tainted? Come on. It was a hugely emotional play that I think most players would have done the same. It’s part of the sport and actually really energized the team.
I’m not suggesting taunting is appropriate but I also understand how it happens. I thought he did a nice job of controlling his emotions after the initial reaction.
Said another way, if I ever dunked on someone like that (let’s just say vT4700 for arguments sake), you better believe I’m giving you a quick stare down.
 

spider fan

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Bigelow brought the house down............and his play has a lot to like. Nelson has some growing "edges" and will cut him some slack. Who else on the team is a good option to be the back up point guard when things are not going well for Nelson? Was at the game and thought surely we have some other option than what we saw last night - or do we? Burton can't do everything although he can certainly move the ball up court. And 18 free throws versus 7 for us really hurt us.......not taking the ball inside is not a way to get to the free throw line.............
 

Spider2020

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Also, why was Bailey in during the late game stretch? Bring in your veteran in Goose to help execute instead of a guy who just had 4 minutes last game.
Probably because in the 4 games so far Goose is averaging 27 minutes, 3.5 points, <1 assist, and 2.5 rebounds a game. At least the Moon man tried something different. Goose is out there just doing cardio so far this year
 

Spider2020

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He definitely has to improve his 3 point shooting. At this point he’s being left open until he proves otherwise.

However, his elbow pull up has looked really smooth (the limited times I’ve seen it). Need to get him going downhill into that mid range pull up more instead of settling for 3’s.
So far his shooting is Khwan Fore esque. Can’t hit a three, but take one dribble closer and he’s money
 
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RichmondNative

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Dec 16, 2018
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Another early season growth game. Burton has to get to the free throw line in games like this. He seemed to be looking for a few fouls on a couple of his 2nd half makes, but there was very little contact. Of course, he, Bigelow, and Nelson were the shot takers in this game and all of them had poor shooting nights. Hopefully a rare occurrence.

Speaking of shooting, Roache was in the game for 13 minutes each half and took 3 shots in the 1st and 2 shots in the 2nd. Why put him out there if he isn’t going to shoot the ball? I guess the good news is there is plenty of tape for him to watch on his defensive positioning.

Randolph was the winner of the turnover the ball once and sit for a half award. I will never understand how this is an effective coaching tactic for early season games.

In the Goose versus Bailey battle for playing time, it was basically a draw although I felt like the ball movement on the floor was better with Bailey. Goose’s play is definitely giving others a chance for more playing time.
 

8legs1dream

Team Manager
Everybody seems to talk about us being bad against the zone. Over the past 3 years we are averaging 1.0+ point per possession against zone. Against man defense, while it has been very good and in the 90th percentile compared to other teams, it has not reached over 1.0 points per possessions. So, statistically, the offense has actually scored MORE and done BETTER against zone defenses. Just something to think about when we say that we can't score against the zone. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

Where are you finding data for our stats over several years specifically against certain types of defense?
 

SpiderK

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Outside of the end of game turnover, I thought Bailey did well. I didn’t see Goose as an upgrade last night the way both had been playing.
Bailey had his moments but got eaten alive by Porter. He also never looked at the basket and therefore was absolutely no offensive threat and they collapsed on the other 4. He has got to assert himself on offense. I know a lot of that hesitation is due to Mooney, but I am positive it is in him to score.
 

I-M-UR

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Mar 10, 2006
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Embarrassing to lose to that team at home. Why anyone ever plays anything but a zone against us, I have no idea. Syracuse will beat us by 25 if we play like that, and they suck too.

There is no excuse for losing to a team that lost AT HOME to garbage like Alcorn State. As usual, we come out flat. As usual, we can't win more than 2 or 3 games in a row to start a season. Could easily be 4-0, but instead we're pretty much eliminating ourselves from at-large consideration in November. We need to sweep Brooklyn to change that, but of course that's not happening.
How many times in Mooney’s career have these strerched zone with long players given us fits? Dozens. And Mooney still doesn’t have a plan.
Our talent appears good but two losses to mediocre teams doesn’t bode well.
 

SpiderGuy

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Oct 13, 2014
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Bigelow brought the house down............and his play has a lot to like. Nelson has some growing "edges" and will cut him some slack. Who else on the team is a good option to be the back up point guard when things are not going well for Nelson? Was at the game and thought surely we have some other option than what we saw last night - or do we? Burton can't do everything although he can certainly move the ball up court. And 18 free throws versus 7 for us really hurt us.......not taking the ball inside is not a way to get to the free throw line.............
Spot on.

We sit out beyond the 3 point line passing, passing, and passing the ball more. Not going to get a lot of fouls called out there. In the meantime, WS crashes the boards looking for high percentage points in the paint with a better chance of getting fouled. Andit of course, that explains the difference in why WS shot so many more foul shots.

Another thing - passing & passing last night resulted in 1) last second forced shots as clock winds down or 2) bad passes or being stripped of ball. Saw too many of these last night. This is just Mooneyball personified. With experienced players we can sometimes overcome some of this, but with new players finding chemistry, it's a challenge, and we can expect to see these problems occur.
 

ur2K

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Dec 21, 2006
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Everybody seems to talk about us being bad against the zone. Over the past 3 years we are averaging 1.0+ point per possession against zone. Against man defense, while it has been very good and in the 90th percentile compared to other teams, it has not reached over 1.0 points per possessions. So, statistically, the offense has actually scored MORE and done BETTER against zone defenses. Just something to think about when we say that we can't score against the zone. Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

We've got our next banner here.
 
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spiderman

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1) I didn't think we could go small defensively when Quinn was out. but the small group held up well and scrapped out there. saw Randolph banging with the 7 footer at one point. we were very tough defensively.

2) if Walz isn't going to sniff the court last night, then coach thinks he's a long way off. I'll give up on expecting any contributions this season.

3) Bigelow is absolutely a starter. he and Burton are among the most dynamic forward combos we've put on the floor together. they should be our starters and should play 30+ mpg together. as for Quinn and Grace ... like a Highlander there can be only one. start Grace as he's had the one big game and is at least a threat offensively.

4) Watching Roche highlights from last year, he was working so hard to get open for shots. our offense doesn't seem to give him that freedom. he's standing around more. too easy to cover.
 

spider fan

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Also setting some screens for Roche to be open would help.............give him credit for not throwing up shots when too closely guarded.........................hopefully we will figure out a way to get him more shots.................at times last night looked like Roche was the fifth wheel or forgotten man.....................
 

Eight Legger

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May 27, 2003
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Also setting some screens for Roche to be open would help.............give him credit for not throwing up shots when too closely guarded.........................hopefully we will figure out a way to get him more shots.................at times last night looked like Roche was the fifth wheel or forgotten man.....................
AMEN to all of this. Good thing he didn't listen to me last night, I was screaming "Shoot it!" basically every time he touched the ball. But we need to get him more looks. I bet he'll make 60% or more of his wide open looks.
 

plydogg

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Mar 2, 2018
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Outside of the end of game turnover, I thought Bailey did well. I didn’t see Goose as an upgrade last night the way both had been playing.
Agree with you here. Also you can’t bring up Dji’s turnover without mentioning that at 3 minute mark in the second half Burton and Nelson had turnovers on back to back possessions. Those were back breakers.
 

plydogg

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Bailey had his moments but got eaten alive by Porter. He also never looked at the basket and therefore was absolutely no offensive threat and they collapsed on the other 4. He has got to assert himself on offense. I know a lot of that hesitation is due to Mooney, but I am positive it is in him to score.
Bailey did a better job of playing the 5 against the zone last night than Neal Quinn did. He had one opportunity, asserted himself, and got to the free throw line. Idk about you but I’m not expecting him to “assert” himself when we’re asking him to play the 5 against a zone because our 7 footer can’t do it
 

plydogg

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How many times in Mooney’s career have these strerched zone with long players given us fits? Dozens. And Mooney still doesn’t have a plan.
Our talent appears good but two losses to mediocre teams doesn’t bode well.
Charleston is not a mediocre team. Take it to the bank
 
Aug 1, 2022
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We've got our next banner here.
Just think it's funny to see some things that people say about it. Don't get me wrong, the zone O looked awful last night. First time this group of guys have seen it in a game, outside of a couple possessions vs. Northern Iowa. I think if Grace is healthy that gets them out of the zone quickly as he is not only one of our best shooters, but probably our best passer / decision maker (in my opinion). For people saying that he should be receiving back-up center minutes, I think last night made it clear that we are better when he is in the game. I think people see us against zone and think we look bad because our man-to-man offense is always so fluid. Yet, people decide to somehow hate on that too.
 
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spider23

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Bigelow is absolutely a starter. he and Burton are among the most dynamic forward combos we've put on the floor together. they should be our starters and should play 30+ mpg together.
I have been saying this from day 1. We need to put those two together on the floor and let them attack the basket. It's amazing how the 3's fall when you get an and 1 or a monster dunk. Our best version is these two playing 35 minutes per game, attacking, staying out of foul trouble, and only coming out for a couple minute break twice a game. Nelson got a little bit of a reality check, but I think he will grow from it and looking for a bounce back game immediately vs cuse. Good to see Dji get some minutes, thought he looked very good at times and then indecisive. But I think we will need one of him or Randolph to earn a bigger role and play well to have a good team. Roche is going to be a postive. He plays with confidence and scraps. Just need to find him his spots.

Finally, its a bit of a hail mary at this point. But I think a healthy Crabtree can really help this team with A) composure/veteran leadership and B) Shooting. May be a long shot at this point, but the way he excelled in his role in limited minutes and in big spots last year showed me something. Hoping he can get healthy and practiced up and given a chance.
 

SpiderDad75

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May 12, 2020
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Bailey had his moments but got eaten alive by Porter. He also never looked at the basket and therefore was absolutely no offensive threat and they collapsed on the other 4. He has got to assert himself on offense. I know a lot of that hesitation is due to Mooney, but I am positive it is in him to score.
Don’t disagree with you about being more assertive but as far as being eaten alive by Porter…Porter had a snake basket in 1st half and in 2nd two buckets in 2nd He drove baseline and hit a tough layup and then a short corner jumper. To each his own I guess but for me that doesn’t constitute being eaten alive. Porter is their best player on Wichita and would expect him to make plays. We can agree to disagree 🕷️🏀
 

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