Wake game thoughts

[97spiderfan]

Missed much of the first half, so can't grade out the players as I would like to but a couple observations.

1. Marshall, Trey, and TJ would clearly grade out very highly. Trey had a great scoring night, I don't think we need nor should expect that type of scoring on a regular basis, but what we should expect is for him to fill out the stat sheet in other ways (rebounds, assists) like he did last night.
2. Terry Allen: Terry is our star. A star player cannot be picking up his 5th foul in a tight road game going after an offensive rebound with 4 minutes left in the game. Just a really poor decision there, he needs to learn from that and not make the same mistake twice.
3. Our ability to close: Our defense as it has in the first two games left a lot to be decided, but after Wake cut the lead to 2 with 3 minutes left, our defense locked down and did not allow them to score again. We could close games out in the OOC last season and then get better last year, the fact that we could close out an ACC team on the road has to be a really positive sign.
4. I give Mooney a lot of credit for playing a deep rotation and our freshman in a big road environment. This is something he hasn't done in the past and I think it just stunts the growth of our young guys. This is a refreshing change to see from CM.
5. On the other hand, Jesse picked up 2 quick fouls and sat the rest of the game on the bench. This was the type of game where I think we could have let Jesse back in the game to play through a freshman mistake.
6. Paul, played meaningful minutes and didn't look like a complete stiff out there. I was worried when he didn't play much against Stetson that he was not going to get much time this year. I'd like to see more of Paul.
7. Just don't understand the logic of Trey and Deion in close end of game situations. Even if they do play great defense and get a stop, any coach who does his homework, should immediately foul these guys as soon as we get the ball. Manning didn't and that should tell you something. Credit to SDJ though for basically refusing to pass the ball to them in that situation.

 

[fan2011]

7. Just don't understand the logic of Trey and Deion in close end of game situations. Even if they do play great defense and get a stop, any coach who does his homework, should immediately foul these guys as soon as we get the ball. Manning didn't and that should tell you something. Credit to SDJ though for basically refusing to pass the ball to them in that situation.

Trey lead the team in rebounds and steals, and was scoring very efficiently.

 

[spiderman]

Missed much of the first half, so can't grade out the players as I would like to but a couple observations.

1. Marshall, Trey, and TJ would clearly grade out very highly. Trey had a great scoring night, I don't think we need nor should expect that type of scoring on a regular basis, but what we should expect is for him to fill out the stat sheet in other ways (rebounds, assists) like he did last night.
2. Terry Allen: Terry is our star. A star player cannot be picking up his 5th foul in a tight road game going after an offensive rebound with 4 minutes left in the game. Just a really poor decision there, he needs to learn from that and not make the same mistake twice.
3. Our ability to close: Our defense as it has in the first two games left a lot to be decided, but after Wake cut the lead to 2 with 3 minutes left, our defense locked down and did not allow them to score again. We could close games out in the OOC last season and then get better last year, the fact that we could close out an ACC team on the road has to be a really positive sign.
4. I give Mooney a lot of credit for playing a deep rotation and our freshman in a big road environment. This is something he hasn't done in the past and I think it just stunts the growth of our young guys. This is a refreshing change to see from CM.
5. On the other hand, Jesse picked up 2 quick fouls and sat the rest of the game on the bench. This was the type of game where I think we could have let Jesse back in the game to play through a freshman mistake.
6. Paul, played meaningful minutes and didn't look like a complete stiff out there. I was worried when he didn't play much against Stetson that he was not going to get much time this year. I'd like to see more of Paul.
7. Just don't understand the logic of Trey and Deion in close end of game situations. Even if they do play great defense and get a stop, any coach who does his homework, should immediately foul these guys as soon as we get the ball. Manning didn't and that should tell you something. Credit to SDJ though for basically refusing to pass the ball to them in that situation.

4. This is a total myth. Ced, Derrick, Kendall, TA, DT, Trey, SDJ, Khwan, etc ... all played right away. Who didn't? Piotrowski, Singleton, Diekvoss? If you're really good and deserve time, CM plays you.

 

[SpiderHoops32]

Can't stress enough how huge it was to get the freshmen in a big road game, huge confidence boost for all of them. Hopefully they get major minutes on Saturday before WVU.

I thought we were done when Terry fouled out with 4 minutes left. Our team showed a lot of resilience, especially on defense.

 

[SpiderTrap]

Just like the JMU game where I tempered myself to not get too low. I caution the same with this game. Lets not get too high.

1) Wake is a bad ACC team. If anyone has watched any other ACC teams play so far - like UNC, Duke, or UVA - Wake looks like a freshman team (not even a JV team) compared to those teams. Yes - those are probably the three best teams in the ACC, but I don't see how Wake finishes out of the bottom 4 of the ACC this year.
2) We shot 51% from the field, and 48% from 3 with 11 threes. I like that we shot better - but if we are going to rely on that type of shooting all year and hope we can score 85+ a night - I don't like our chances. Its great we shot well, but we can't rely on that - but we can rely on our ----
3) DEFENSE - we let Wake shoot 57% and 46% from deep. BUT TRAP - we did force 20 turnovers. That is where we won the game (and rebounding - next point) but I wonder how many of those turnovers were really forced. In my mind - about 5 of them were travelling calls from Dinos, and others were just bad turnovers from a bad guard in Crawford. Point being - our defense still needs a lot of improvement.
4) Rebounding - we did a good job limiting their offensive rebounds.. Only 12. That is very good for us. Maybe some of it had to do with them shooting 57% and not having a lot of chances, but nonetheless - 12 or less offensive rebounds should be the goal for this team.
5) Back Door cuts - for the first time in a long time under Mooney, we finally got a good amount of back door cuts. Some of this is just Wake's bad defense, but some of it is also our ability to hit 3's and stretch the defense. Make 3's early, and it makes them guard you outside and opens up lanes for easy cuts or drives.

Good win, not great. I don't see this game showing up on our NCAA resume because Wake will probably end up in the basement of the ACC with a RPI of around 150. A game if we lose - maybe it shows up as a bad loss, but we took care of business and can now get ready for Cookman and then Vegas.

 

[97spiderfan]

4. This is a total myth. Ced, Derrick, Kendall, TA, DT, Trey, SDJ, Khwan, etc ... all played right away. Who didn't? Piotrowski, Singleton, Diekvoss? If you're really good and deserve time, CM plays you.

I disagree. Most of the players you referenced would play much more in home games against easier opponents. In close games and particularly road games, Mooney shortens his bench and generally would play an 8 man rotation. Particularly in the second half of these close games, freshman's time was very much minimized. The fact that we saw Julius, Paul, Khwan in the game late in the second half of a competitive road game is a distinct change from how Mooney has treated freshman players particularly this early in the season. Some of that time might have been due to foul trouble I admit though.

What Mooney normally does with freshman in big road games is what happened to Jesse last night, a couple minutes in the first half and thats it. Kendall might be the only player you referenced above that this was not the case for.

 

[97spiderfan]

Trey lead the team in rebounds and steals, and was scoring very efficiently.

Correct. I was more referencing playing them together out there as it presents two easy foul opportunities if we get a stop. You are right, Trey should have been out there and probably should be on most nights, just don't want him and Deion out there together, in situations where if we get a stop there is an obvious foul situation. I realize sometimes that is inevitable due to a variety of situations though and perhaps last night was one of those situations.

 

[fan2011]

I disagree. Most of the players you referenced would play much more in home games against easier opponents. In close games and particularly road games, Mooney shortens his bench and generally would play an 8 man rotation. Particularly in the second half of these close games, freshman's time was very much minimized. The fact that we saw Julius, Paul, Khwan in the game late in the second half of a competitive road game is a distinct change from how Mooney has treated freshman players particularly this early in the season. Some of that time might have been due to foul trouble I admit though.

What Mooney normally does with freshman in big road games is what happened to Jesse last night, a couple minutes in the first half and thats it. Kendall might be the only player you referenced above that this was not the case for.

Go back and look at the minutes. A lot of these players played every game, Ced was on the floor for extended minutes during our 2011 NCAA sweet 16 run. K0 played more as a freshman than as a sophomore!

 

[sdspider]

Honestly think the extra playing time for others was directly due to foul trouble. Mooney had no choice. But admit it's a blessing in disguise to get the younger guys some minutes in a big road game.

 

[NewURfan]

Mooney did a great job of in game adjustment coaching last night. Subs gave quality rest and minutes. IMO the way CM sub last night should be the sub pattern not at time interval and automatically sub a player. Sub according to how player is progressing in game. Players got in rhythms some were comfortable and as we see points got put up. I'll take out scoring with high powered offense over a defensive team

 

[WebSpinner]

if we continue to get in foul trouble with the "new ref calls" then subbing will be the norm but may not always work out the way it did last night. pretty much everything went well for us last night, cannot expect that every game, will need to find ways to win games almost every night.

 

[spiders13]

I was impressed with Paul's hands on that fast break down the court where he got dished in traffic, caught the ball and made the basket.

 

[64Spider]

In practice, Paul has shown that he can shoot the long ball and he is a pretty good free throw shooter. If he stays healthy he will become a very good player.

 

[97spiderfan]

Go back and look at the minutes. A lot of these players played every game, Ced was on the floor for extended minutes during our 2011 NCAA sweet 16 run. K0 played more as a freshman than as a sophomore!

Fan, I'm sure both of those players do show a lot of minutes their freshman year. What I was referencing is when those minutes occurred. Mooney has been reluctant (to a fault in my opinion) to play freshman during crunch time in the second half. Those minutes are largely coming in the first half of games or in blow out games. And again, Kendall was the anomaly.

I look at Ced and SDJ minutes early in their career and my memory is more clear with SDJ, SDJ clearly showed he could play but did not get the minutes his play might of warranted until Ced went down with his season ending injury. I think there were many games prior to that when fans were wondering why he didn't get more time because good stuff was happening when he was on the court.

I think it was situational/foul related last night, but I think what we also saw and hopefully CM saw as well is those freshman performed well in those situations and should get those 2nd half playing opportunities in future tight games, particularly in light of the fact that some of our upper classman who get some of those minutes, have not always excelled in those roles.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Danny Manning said they missed out on something that was on the Scouting Report and that was a big reason they lost the game.
He was asked twice and would not say what it was. The only thought I had was that Marshall Wood could shoot the 3. Going on
VPI experience he was not much of a shooter in their offense. I am just curious what do you think he was referring to?

 

[MrVCU:]

That's my guess. On my drive home was listening through SIRIUSXM and that was the Wake broadcast. After Wood hit the second early trey, their color guy said something like "wow, I don't remember him being much of a shooter at Tech". I thought he was always known as a shooter.....?

Anyway - good win for the league. Always big to beat an ACC team, especially on their floor!

 

[spiderman]

Carolina, had to be Wood and more obviously TJ. you can't leave TJ free up top. he's money there. they got lost on pick and pops. had to have than in the scouting.
97, it's a roster issue, not a trust issue. SDJ was behind Ced and Kendall. both of those guys were high minute guys, and SDJ wasn't stealing time from them. until Ced went down.
all the guys I listed played every game as freshmen. I can't prove what time of the game they came in. but if you're good ... and you're the best option late ... then you're out there. if you have Ced and Kendall in front of you, you probably don't play at crunch time. that's easy.

 

[97spiderfan]

Agree to disagree on freshman's playing meaningful minutes in road situations. I was trying to give Mooney some praise anyway for being a bit more flexible in substitution patterns. Well, see how it plays out. We've been an 8 man rotation for the past several years. A 10 man rotation is better because depth is good, that is a positive development in my book.

 

[NewURfan]

I'm torn by both contributions for sub pattern. Although it gives frosh quality minutes and experience for the future but if you aren't better than a starter wait your turn. Plus 10 man rotation hurts the flow of the game play of your dependent player. Tighter rotation player chemistry comfort seems to prevail then shuffling talent. We lost to better teams last year with small rotations exclude lambs. Sub according to each game not set value on minute percentage as stop watch guy did TJ last year.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Carolina, had to be Wood and more obviously TJ. you can't leave TJ free up top. he's money there. they got lost on pick and pops. had to have than in the scouting.
97, it's a roster issue, not a trust issue. SDJ was behind Ced and Kendall. both of those guys were high minute guys, and SDJ wasn't stealing time from them. until Ced went down.
all the guys I listed played every game as freshmen. I can't prove what time of the game they came in. but if you're good ... and you're the best option late ... then you're out there. if you have Ced and Kendall in front of you, you probably don't play at crunch time. that's easy.

did not TJ light them up for over 20 last year? I don't think he would have been unknown to them and certainly on Scouting Report. I think it is Wood also cause he is coming back and Manning wants to make sure he is hi-lighted in scouting report for next year. I have just never heard a Coach blame multiple times the Scouting Report for their loss.

 

[KennyWood]

FYI a reporter asked Manning if he was saying the scouting report was inaccurate or missing vital info, and he said "no", the team just didn't follow it. So I'm sure it noted that TJ and Wood can shoot, but their guys still didn't get out and guard them.

 

[urmite]

That's my guess. On my drive home was listening through SIRIUSXM and that was the Wake broadcast. After Wood hit the second early trey, their color guy said something like "wow, I don't remember him being much of a shooter at Tech". I thought he was always known as a shooter.....?

Anyway - good win for the league. Always big to beat an ACC team, especially on their floor!

I think in HS he was known for making outside shots, while at Tech he was known for taking outside shots...

 

[spiderman]

yeah, that's what I thought too, KW. Manning wasn't blaming the scouting report. He said his players didn't focus on what they should have based on the scouting report.

 

[urmite]

In the 3 games that Tech had against Wake while he was there.
First - Did not play.
Second - 22 mins 0-1 3 pt 4 fouls no points.
Third (Soph) - 10mins 1-1 2pt 0-1 3 pt 2 points total.

 

[I-M-UR]

Trey lead the team in rebounds and steals, and was scoring very efficiently.

you can't have guys who can't hit free throws in the game at the end. play offense/defense substitution if you need two but having DT and to a lessor extent TD on the line is not much better than a turnover.

 

[urmite]

If I'm reading that right, Saturday might be a good time to work on the perimeter defense.

Looks like Bethune is 7th in the nation in 3 point shooting?

 

[SpiderRick]

Trey lead the team in rebounds and steals, and was scoring very efficiently.

He had to be referring to their free throw shooting (or lack thereof) at the end of a game when the other team was forced to foul and put us on the line. Obviously Trey played a great game, and it was his hustle that seemed to light a fire in the team.

 

[Spideroldie]

+1 I-M-UR, Agree that we dodged a bullet that Manning did not quickly foul TD or DT as soon as we got the ball late in this game. So, we did not get burned for making the mistake. However, if we think we will get away with playing either of these starters late in games, I doubt that is going to happen. We need to figure out our best "end-of-game" line-up now, and practice those situations. Obviously, that end-of-game line-up (especially if we are ahead) should include 5 of our better foul-shooters. We could debate this, but at this point I would like to see MW, or JP or KF as the guys most likely to be in there for TD and DT. At this point we may not have enough data to know which two of these three are the best foul shooters. At some point, PF may be one of those guys, since I understand he is also good at the line. Of course, having guys in there who can also play some defense is probably not a bad idea. Who would the rest of you have on the floor in end-of-game situations?

 

[bongturk]

+1 I-M-UR, Agree that we dodged a bullet that Manning did not quickly foul TD or DT as soon as we got the ball late in this game. So, we did not get burned for making the mistake. However, if we think we will get away with playing either of these starters late in games, I doubt that is going to happen. We need to figure out our best "end-of-game" line-up now, and practice those situations. Obviously, that end-of-game line-up (especially if we are ahead) should include 5 of our better foul-shooters. We could debate this, but at this point I would like to see MW, or JP or KF as the guys most likely to be in there for TD and DT. At this point we may not have enough data to know which two of these three are the best foul shooters. At some point, PF may be one of those guys, since I understand he is also good at the line. Of course, having guys in there who can also play some defense is probably not a bad idea. Who would the rest of you have on the floor in end-of-game situations?

Davis and Taylor definitely should not be on the floor at the end of a close game. Yes Davis had a good game for him last night. However, he did clank a shot or two, missed a foul shot at the end last night and clanked two terrible jump shots when we were down two against James Madison with three minutes to go. If he starts hitting his shots regularly this could change but three years of poor shooting by him and Taylor means they should be on the bench at the end of a close game. Mooney should have learned this by now. Wake appears to be a really bad ACC team. We still need to work on defense and boxing out on the defensive boards. offense is really shooting well so far.

 

[Spider B]

I thought Manning was going to start fouling DT every posession after he did it the first time with under 4 to play. I agree we cant afford to have DT in close games at the end because his poor free throw percentage . Ideally, TD wouldnt be in either, but what are our options? We have to have a guard in with SDJ to handle the ball. Kwan is the man that I would prefer to have in for ball handling, but he doesnt appear to be the best shooter at this point in his career. Jesse looks to be a good shooter, but is unproven. Same goes for Julius. Tough situation. On another note, I cant wait for Julius to finally get a shot to go down. He doesn't get a lot of elevation on his jump shot, but has a quick release and I think is going to be another shooter we can depend on this year.

 

[Eight Legger]

Trey played to the strengths of his game yesterday. This is what we need him to do all year long. He is not a jump-shooter, never has been, never will be. He's a slasher, and last night that aspect of his game was on full display. He can stick the 3 at random moments too, but he shouldn't try more than 1 or 2 a game. Honestly, I feel better when I see him take a 3 than a regular jumper.

 

[spiderman]

I'd like Trey on the floor late for defense and rebounding. we should be able to run our iso stuff up top with SDJ and KF without Trey handling and getting fouled.

 

[97spiderfan]

Good discussion. Yes, it is the Trey and Deion combo that I was concerned about. Granted, there are foul considerations that have to be taken into account. If Terry or TJ has 4 fouls, do you leave them in, or do you allow Deion to play in that situation?

If I am opposing coach, as soon as we get possession, I'm going over and fouling Deion, whether he has the ball or not. That is just statistically a very smart decision. Save time, and Deion has about a 40% chance of hitting a FT.

 

[fan2011]

Deion or Trey don't even need to be holding the ball to be fouled. Just hack him before we inbound the ball and he will go to the line.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

Two 40% free throw shooters should not be in the game at winning time.

Bringing them in on a dead ball for a 1-time defensive assignment could be considered. But, if you fail to get them out before you transition to offense you are not giving your team the best chance to win. Call time out if you have to, but GET THEM OFF the floor before you go to offense.

 

[sdspider]

My question: how can 4 years of college ball notmake you a better free throw shooter? Practice, change technique etc. It seems Deion has a confidence problem at the line

 

[Spideroldie]

If these guys truly want time on the floor, at the end of close games, I hope they are 1) reading this thread, and 2) staying late, at the end of each practice, to shoot a minimum of 200 FTs per day. Ideally, they ask a coach who knows about FT technique, to watch them and give them tips. It is not too late to get things right at the FT line, but until this "learning-curve" is established, I would give them the heads-up that they are likely coming out of close late-game situations. We should not have to do it, but I hope we don't have to suffer a close loss or two to learn that we need to do this, given the current FT %s. This is unfortunate, but at least it has not cost us any game so far, unless you count the missed shots by Davis, late in the JMU game, which I believe were pivotal.

 

[spider23]

Honestly, a sports psychologist is probably the answer, and no disrespect to the guys. I have a son that I can rebound in the driveway or gym and he can shoot 80 % and has decent form - and in a game he struggles. You can see him just trying to force the ball into the hoop when he is at the line. While I know many have had form tips for TD and DT over the years, I bet they can hit 80 out of 100 in a gym by themself and a rebounder. While I do think good form, muscle memory, repition, etc is important, I think confidence is a huge factor in FT shooting and shooting in general. I don't think David Gonzalvez was necessarily one of the most talented/athletic shooting guards ever at Richmond, he was one of the very best because he always thought he was the best and the next shot was going in.

 

[64Spider]

Offense/defense substitution becomes tricky now that bench cannot call timeout except in dead-ball situations.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I think confidence is a huge factor in FT shooting and shooting in general.

100% correct. Good shooters, feel in their soul that they are going to put the next one in the bottom of the net. The flaws of UR's two 40% free throw shooters can not be corrected by extra time in the gym.