Petition

[SpiderK]

I have to agree with iSpider at this point. They will not fire Mooney unless he has another mental meltdown. This team will be pretty damn good the next two years despite Mooney. Jacob, Jake, Grant, Cayo, Nick, Sal, Blake all have at least two more years. The administration just won’t have the balls to blow that up while pissing away $4 million to get rid of him.
Just my opinion.

 

[spider23]

I am wondering the same thing K.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

The thing is, we have downgraded the program. Sure, we're in the A10 now, but we seem perfectly content to have a basketball program that goes 16-15 or 17-14 and celebrates when we beat other bad teams.

Look at this schedule. Every game other than our tournament game is against teams in the bottom half of Division 1 - many way down the list. All of Hardt's talk about competing for championships and going to the big dance - that can only happen one way if changes aren't made - the A10 is terrible and we catch fire in the tournament. Mooney has built a program that has no chance at all of getting an at-large bid. So sure, keep scheduling like Georgetown and hoping we can win the A10 AQ.

I'm sure y'all are sick of my bringing up the quadrants of our games, but the fact of the matter is, teams that play the bulk of their games in Quad 4 will never receive at-large consideration. Especially with (at this writing) 3 Q4 losses. A very mediocre VCU which didn't even sniff a bid last year went undefeated in Q4 games. I'd bet that the mean Q4 losses of all the at-large teams last year was <1. We could have gone 11-2 OOC this year's schedule and been completely off the NCAA's radar.

 

[Eight Legger]

Not directing any of this at you, K, because I know we're on the same side. But anyone who uses that argument should have a lobotomy. It's been the same exact thing every year now almost since the S16 run and it never becomes to reality. I'm done expecting Mooney to figure it out in his eighth or ninth year of this ridiculous contract. He won't.

 

[spider fan]

See similarities between St Joe's Martelli and Mooney in regard to coaching tenure. Of course there are differences but both have had success - Martelli at a higher degree - and both have had failure - Mooney with more. Fans get restless and then a better year comes along and angst diminishes. Martelli has not gone as long without NCAA appearance. Comparison is not perfect but trajectory is similar..................not saying that is how the story will play out but think K's point about how the school(administration) sees it is relevant............

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/chris-mooney-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/phil-martelli-1.html

 

[Eight Legger]

Yep, that's about as close a comparison as you'll find anywhere. And yet, it's night and day. As you say, Martelli never went so long without a tourney appearance. And he had the NO. 1 TEAM IN THE COUNTRY for almost an entire season. Mooney has never even had the No. 1 team in his own league – ever!

 

[spider fan]

Yes would take Martelli's record over Mooney's - Martelli had lots of good will built up by the glory year of being number 1 (and arguing with Billy Packer about the rankings) but during the lean years some of the fans were "fired up" wanting him gone......then team wins conference tourney, goes to dance, and all is forgiven..................

 

[MrTbone]

Yes would take Martelli's record over Mooney's - Martelli had lots of good will built up by the glory year of being number 1 (and arguing with Billy Packer about the rankings) but during the lean years some of the fans were "fired up" wanting him gone......then team wins conference tourney, goes to dance, and all is forgiven..................

I think all (most) would be forgiven here too if CM took UR back to the tournament. The only barometer for performance is appearances. If we were to get one this year, some folks would still grate against keeping him but by and large the mob would disperse.

I’m personally ready to end the experiment but I’d not reject an ncaa trip to spite him.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

I’m pwesonally ready to end the experiment but I’d not reject an ncaa trip to spite him.

Completely agree. That's all I want so how can I say get rid of him then. I mean that would be quite the feat! But please no additional long term contracts.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I think all (most) would be forgiven here too if CM took UR back to the tournament. The only barometer for performance is appearances. If we were to get one this year, some folks would still grate against keeping him but by and large the mob would disperse.

I’m pwesonally ready to end the experiment but I’d not reject an ncaa trip to spite him.

Well, the strategy now is to wallow around in the lower half of D1, then hope to catch fire in the conference tourney. That would accomplish the vague goal of "competing for championships and making the dance."

The thing is, we don't need to be in the A10 with a $1.3 million coach to do that.

 

[97spiderfan]

Figured this needed a little bump. Up to 67 signatures, now. Let's get this thing even higher.

https://www.change.org/p/john-hardt-save-richmond-basketball

 

[SpiderTrap]

Figured this needed a little bump. Up to 67 signatures, now. Let's get this thing even higher.

https://www.change.org/p/john-hardt-save-richmond-basketball

This petition just confirms what I have been thinking all along the past few years. I was hoping I was wrong, or hoping UR was on a different trajectory - but I don't see it. UR is not an athletic school. We have athletics, but unlike some of the P5 schools and even schools in our league, the A10, sports is very much secondary and below in our how we view ourselves as a school. In major programs and schools, they understand the value a national sports program can have on a University, and they place it number 1 or 1a with their academic missions, but here at UR - that is not the case. Simple examples of that.
1) This petition only has 60 signatures - that just shows the small following we have. At a sports first University - this thing would have 100 signatures in the first day and over a 1,000 within a week. If Hardt is gets view of this petition, he probably says to himself - we have over 5,000 fans a game - and only 60 are upset, seems like they support him I guess. Also - other big time schools would take this to the next level, like buy a billboard, take ad in RTD, post a banner on campus or something - instead, we just have an online petition with 60 signatures.
2) Administration - I believe overall leadership of the University has fallen in line with this thinking of well. I have no reason whatsoever to believe President Crutcher has any interest in sports. Some on this board speak otherwise, but my interactions with him and his overall background suggest otherwise. Hardt - coming from Bucknell, again speaks to the sports secondary which is very much the case.
3)Fake interest - I believe we fake interest in our sports. We spend money, but we are usually last to do so, and only do so to keep up with everyone else. We are hardly ever at the front of the line when it comes to spending and improvements. Shaka Smart got a 10 year deal worth over 1 million a year, so we felt compelled to do the same for Mooney. We took forever to get a football stadium on campus, stating we need to raise the money and that took nearly 2-3 years to do so. Practice facility for UR hoops, was planned, then postponed, and now back on schedule?
4) Decrease sports - we add Lacrosse (good add) only to get rid of Soccer and Track. Everyone speaks numbers - but again this was purely a money decision (we are supposed to be the rich school but hardly act like it). We didn't want to support a women's sport to match lacrosse (womens softball or volleyball?). So instead we cut two sports - again showing sports is not important.

I think this is okay - just something we need to accept as fans. Sports are not important to the overall mission of UR. We need to accept that and move on. We have a coach who in my opinion is the perfect coach for UR in terms of getting the right kids, being a good role model, and molding good young men. Only problem is that in the past couple of years - he has not won enough basketball games, which is secondary so I think he stays. And I don't doubt in 2-3 years, we make the NCAA again or NIT.

 

[iSpider]

This petition just confirms what I have been thinking all along the past few years. I was hoping I was wrong, or hoping UR was on a different trajectory - but I don't see it. UR is not an athletic school. We have athletics, but unlike some of the P5 schools and even schools in our league, the A10, sports is very much secondary and below in our how we view ourselves as a school. In major programs and schools, they understand the value a national sports program can have on a University, and they place it number 1 or 1a with their academic missions, but here at UR - that is not the case. Simple examples of that.
1) This petition only has 60 signatures - that just shows the small following we have. At a sports first University - this thing would have 100 signatures in the first day and over a 1,000 within a week. If Hardt is gets view of this petition, he probably says to himself - we have over 5,000 fans a game - and only 60 are upset, seems like they support him I guess. Also - other big time schools would take this to the next level, like buy a billboard, take ad in RTD, post a banner on campus or something - instead, we just have an online petition with 60 signatures.
2) Administration - I believe overall leadership of the University has fallen in line with this thinking of well. I have no reason whatsoever to believe President Crutcher has any interest in sports. Some on this board speak otherwise, but my interactions with him and his overall background suggest otherwise. Hardt - coming from Bucknell, again speaks to the sports secondary which is very much the case.
3)Fake interest - I believe we fake interest in our sports. We spend money, but we are usually last to do so, and only do so to keep up with everyone else. We are hardly ever at the front of the line when it comes to spending and improvements. Shaka Smart got a 10 year deal worth over 1 million a year, so we felt compelled to do the same for Mooney. We took forever to get a football stadium on campus, stating we need to raise the money and that took nearly 2-3 years to do so. Practice facility for UR hoops, was planned, then postponed, and now back on schedule?
4) Decrease sports - we add Lacrosse (good add) only to get rid of Soccer and Track. Everyone speaks numbers - but again this was purely a money decision (we are supposed to be the rich school but hardly act like it). We didn't want to support a women's sport to match lacrosse (womens softball or volleyball?). So instead we cut two sports - again showing sports is not important.

I think this is okay - just something we need to accept as fans. Sports are not important to the overall mission of UR. We need to accept that and move on. We have a coach who in my opinion is the perfect coach for UR in terms of getting the right kids, being a good role model, and molding good young men. Only problem is that in the past couple of years - he has not won enough basketball games, which is secondary so I think he stays. And I don't doubt in 2-3 years, we make the NCAA again or NIT.

If I bought into this, I would immediately forgo any association I had with UR. I do not have time to refute it at the moment, but I do not believe that the substance of any (or all) of the foregoing paragraphs is determinative of the current state of affairs of our athletic department. I believe that the problems with lack of success we now face in our sports programs will soon turn around. We're not a Southern Cal or an Ohio State. I wouldn't want to be. However, within the framework of the NCAA, we can have nationally successful sports programs.

 

[97spiderfan]

The petition only has 60 plus signatures now because I only think it has been shared on this board. Yes, it probably needs to be brought forth to a larger audience but I am not in charge of it. I just shared it on this venue. If we took this over to D-hall, the commons, put flyers on everyone's cars at the RC with a link, I'm sure we could get more signatures, but not sure how many of us have time for that.

The petition is just one of the many things being done that to make voices being heard. Some people are comfortable signing a petition, some e-mail Hardt, some doing a chant or holding up a banner, some voicing displeasure to local sports media and on social media. Many things happening all at once, I'm sure more will sprout up as the season progresses.

 

[I-M-UR]

Most Spider fans I know don't even go to the spidernation any more, they just don't care. So I don't know who knows there is petition.

 

[WebSpinner]

feel the administration, including our Athletic Director see what is going on both off and on the court. chants and petitions are kind of amateur, will not get results, unless, of course, those signing are huge donors which is probably not the case here. this is not a black and white issue, lots of variables are involved, some we know about, others, we do not. one has to take all the pieces involved before making a decision, knee-jerk reactions are not good and if employed, would have a new set of coaches on campus every year. personally am much more patient than many and that goes for all my teams both college and pro. anyone who is a REDSKIN fan and has lived through the dan snyder coaching carousel the past couple of decades has to realize that you have to have some stability and common sense not pulling the trigger each year. not saying that is a good comparison, just stating my feelings having lived through different types of owners, presidents, athletic directors.

 

[SpiderTrap]

If I bought into this, I would immediately forgo any association I had with UR. I do not have time to refute it at the moment, but I do not believe that the substance of any (or all) of the foregoing paragraphs is determinative of the current state of affairs of our athletic department. I believe that the problems with lack of success we now face in our sports programs will soon turn around. We're not a Southern Cal or an Ohio State. I wouldn't want to be. However, within the framework of the NCAA, we can have nationally successful sports programs.

iSpider - we will not have a nationally successful sports programs at UR. It just won't happen. We have had windows of opportunity and did nothing with them. We will continue to be the school, especially from a basketball standpoint - that every so often we will come on the national scene, probably by causing an upset somewhere as our "giant killer" name goes, but we will never be a consistent threat or contender in any sport really. Football - we will make the playoffs again at some point and win a game or two, but winning a national title again - dont count on it anytime soon. Will we make the NCAA tourney in hoops - of course we will, and I don't doubt we even make another sweet 16 again, but then will fall back dry years and will have to wait to see those days again. Many of our other sports experience success within the conference, but once they enter the national scene - we are a first round loss in many NCAA tourneys. This to me means we are close - but again, not willing to take the next steps or necessary risks to make it a priority.

I am not saying this is a bad thing - we just need to accept it. Mooney is the norm for Richmond. I believe if everyone stays, we will have an NCAA team in 2 years. But then fall back to earth again when we have to reset again with a young team.

 

[spiderstudent17]

iSpider - we will not have a nationally successful sports programs at UR. It just won't happen. We have had windows of opportunity and did nothing with them. We will continue to be the school, especially from a basketball standpoint - that every so often we will come on the national scene, probably by causing an upset somewhere as our "giant killer" name goes, but we will never be a consistent threat or contender in any sport really. Football - we will make the playoffs again at some point and win a game or two, but winning a national title again - dont count on it anytime soon. Will we make the NCAA tourney in hoops - of course we will, and I don't doubt we even make another sweet 16 again, but then will fall back dry years and will have to wait to see those days again. Many of our other sports experience success within the conference, but once they enter the national scene - we are a first round loss in many NCAA tourneys. This to me means we are close - but again, not willing to take the next steps or necessary risks to make it a priority.

I am not saying this is a bad thing - we just need to accept it. Mooney is the norm for Richmond. I believe if everyone stays, we will have an NCAA team in 2 years. But then fall back to earth again when we have to reset again with a young team.

With all due respect, I disagree a lot with your opinion. For one, I would argue that we do have nationally successful programs at UR. For instance football team won a national championship, consistently ranked in the polls and even top 10 throughout a decade and have had several deep runs in the playoffs. Our lacrosse team, albeit a young one that hasn’t made an impact in the ncaa tournament yet, but has been ranked as high as #13 in the country and is beating the Blue bloods of the sport in what will be its 6th year.

This idea that we need to “just accept” that our basketball program will occasionally have an upset or make the ncaa tournament but the vast majority of years we will be average/below average is a defeatist mentality. This is what our success the last 14 years makes you think we are capable of. However, don’t underestimate the impact that coaching can have in building up a program. We have made tremendous strides in building the foundations of a national caliber program. This will not happen overnight but to say we are “not willing to take the next steps or necessary risks to make it a priority.” is simply not true. Maybe for sports like field hockey or tennis, but not for basketball. We have done a lot of things that are necessary to create championship caliber basketball like I alluded to in a previous thread today. The main thing left is that we’ve remained stubborn about letting Mooney go. However, once we do that at the end of this season and hire a strong coach, we will be an A10 championship team. You can bet the ranch on that! I know things are frustrating now but I truly believe a bright future lies ahead.

 

[urfan1]

Trap, which non-P5 schools meet your definition?

 

[MrTbone]

feel the administration, including our Athletic Director see what is going on both off and on the court. chants and petitions are kind of amateur, will not get results, unless, of course, those signing are huge donors which is probably not the case here. this is not a black and white issue, lots of variables are involved, some we know about, others, we do not. one has to take all the pieces involved before making a decision, knee-jerk reactions are not good and if employed, would have a new set of coaches on campus every year. personally am much more patient than many and that goes for all my teams both college and pro. anyone who is a REDSKIN fan and has lived through the dan snyder coaching carousel the past couple of decades has to realize that you have to have some stability and common sense not pulling the trigger each year. not saying that is a good comparison, just stating my feelings having lived through different types of owners, presidents, athletic directors.

The Cooper petition was pivotal in creating the movement around his departure. I was intimately involved in that petition, so it can work if there’s momentum but it requires active solicitation. You have to share it with your email distribution and those people have to do it with theirs and so on. That’s how you get critical mass. But people have to actually care and it’s entitely possible that not enough people care. Until then, it’s not going to move the needle.

 

[mr.spider]

Completely agree SS17. We have things in place and the commitment. We can and will be a consistent top 50 Basketball program soon.

 

[iSpider]

iSpider - we will not have a nationally successful sports programs at UR. It just won't happen. We have had windows of opportunity and did nothing with them. We will continue to be the school, especially from a basketball standpoint - that every so often we will come on the national scene, probably by causing an upset somewhere as our "giant killer" name goes, but we will never be a consistent threat or contender in any sport really. Football - we will make the playoffs again at some point and win a game or two, but winning a national title again - dont count on it anytime soon. Will we make the NCAA tourney in hoops - of course we will, and I don't doubt we even make another sweet 16 again, but then will fall back dry years and will have to wait to see those days again. Many of our other sports experience success within the conference, but once they enter the national scene - we are a first round loss in many NCAA tourneys. This to me means we are close - but again, not willing to take the next steps or necessary risks to make it a priority.

I am not saying this is a bad thing - we just need to accept it. Mooney is the norm for Richmond. I believe if everyone stays, we will have an NCAA team in 2 years. But then fall back to earth again when we have to reset again with a young team.

You not saying that this is a bad thing is a bad thing.

 

[mr.spider]

Just one stubborn detail to remove...

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

The main thing left is that we’ve remained stubborn about letting Mooney go. However, once we do that at the end of this season and hire a strong coach

Assumes facts not in evidence. TPTB don't seem inclined to do this.

 

[fatherspider]

The Cooper petition was pivotal in creating the movement around his departure. I was intimately involved in that petition, so it can work if there’s momentum but it requires active solicitation. You have to share it with your email distribution and those people have to do it with theirs and so on. That’s how you get critical mass. But people have to actually care and it’s entitely possible that not enough people care. Until then, it’s not going to move the needle.

This petition requires people to do more than they might like to do, like “share” on facebook or twitter. Likely keeping the numbers down.

 

[MrTbone]

Assumes facts not in evidence. TPTB don't seem inclined to do this.

I tend to agree that there aren’t many indicators that TPTB are fed up, but I see CM doing a lot of stuff that makes me think he feels very uncomfortable with his status. I still think a losing season this year is the last straw and a change occurs if so, but we’re subject to highly tolerant administrators so I may be kidding myself.

 

[Eight Legger]

At best we win 12 or 13 games this year, meaning that he will have won in two seasons combined about the number of games we realistically need to win in one to get at-large consideration. If we keep him despite that, we have idiots running the asylum.

 

[WebSpinner]

two things, the cooper petition was not a factor, big donors making their voices heard was the factor. second, we had a window of opportunity when we went to the sweet 16 and we pursued it with vigor, signing and retaining our coach who was probably gone, upgrading facilities, flying charter jets and the like. we were thinking big and spending the money, the results were not what one expected or desired but one cannot state that we did not try.

 

[SpiderTrap]

Trap, which non-P5 schools meet your definition?

From a basketball perspective, because that is where it all starts (that and football because success there brings in money which can then be divided to the whole athletics department) - these are the leaders right now. I would say they have made the national scene from a success standpoint and consistency. Some of them you will argue are P5 schools, but with the split of the Big East - hard to say who is. And all of these schools were mid-majors that moved up to bigger conferences as part of their success - something we thought UR might do a few years ago.

Gonzaga
Wichita St.
Butler
Xavier

Some schools that are close to the above list.

VCU - I think if they make the tourney this year or next year and have another sweet 16 in them, they get included.
Northern Iowa
Creighton

Schools just starting there success or with some work to do.
Buffalo
Loyola
Nevada
St. Marys
Belmont

Schools that missed their opportunity so far.
UR
George Mason
Davidson (maybe could be considered still there if they can put together another run of NCAA appearances)
St. Joes

 

[Eight Legger]

Good points, Trap. To summarize, not only has Mooney cost us from a bottom line standpoint – $14M or so for the length of his contract – but we've also potentially incurred a significant opportunity cost by continuing to employ him (i.e., lost opportunities to earn more NCAA unit money or move up to a better conference and earn more revenue, exposure, etc.).

 

[AnnapSpider]

From a basketball perspective, because that is where it all starts (that and football because success there brings in money which can then be divided to the whole athletics department) - these are the leaders right now. I would say they have made the national scene from a success standpoint and consistency. Some of them you will argue are P5 schools, but with the split of the Big East - hard to say who is. And all of these schools were mid-majors that moved up to bigger conferences as part of their success - something we thought UR might do a few years ago.

Gonzaga
Wichita St.
Butler
Xavier

Some schools that are close to the above list.

VCU - I think if they make the tourney this year or next year and have another sweet 16 in them, they get included.
Northern Iowa
Creighton

Schools just starting there success or with some work to do.
Buffalo
Loyola
Nevada
St. Marys
Belmont

Schools that missed their opportunity so far.
UR
George Mason
Davidson (maybe could be considered still there if they can put together another run of NCAA appearances)
St. Joes

I think this is a very valid observation and have no disagreement with it. But, as quickly as we dropped
we could get back up- with another coach.

 

[MrTbone]

two things, the cooper petition was not a factor, big donors making their voices heard was the factor. second, we had a window of opportunity when we went to the sweet 16 and we pursued it with vigor, signing and retaining our coach who was probably gone, upgrading facilities, flying charter jets and the like. we were thinking big and spending the money, the results were not what one expected or desired but one cannot state that we did not try.

You’re right, the petition that got signed by thousands of alumni within three days and brought all three local news stations to campus had no effect.

 

[WebSpinner]

not saying it was not in the mix but until the big donors got involved, nothing was going to happen, just a fact of life

 

[MrTbone]

not saying it was not in the mix but until the big donors got involved, nothing was going to happen, just a fact of life

Well obviously, my point is if our b-ball fans want to get some pressure going it’s going to take more than double digit petition sigs.

 

[urfan1]

From a basketball perspective, because that is where it all starts (that and football because success there brings in money which can then be divided to the whole athletics department) - these are the leaders right now. I would say they have made the national scene from a success standpoint and consistency. Some of them you will argue are P5 schools, but with the split of the Big East - hard to say who is. And all of these schools were mid-majors that moved up to bigger conferences as part of their success - something we thought UR might do a few years ago.

Gonzaga
Wichita St.
Butler
Xavier

Some schools that are close to the above list.

VCU - I think if they make the tourney this year or next year and have another sweet 16 in them, they get included.
Northern Iowa
Creighton

Schools just starting there success or with some work to do.
Buffalo
Loyola
Nevada
St. Marys
Belmont

Schools that missed their opportunity so far.
UR
George Mason
Davidson (maybe could be considered still there if they can put together another run of NCAA appearances)
St. Joes

So you've got about 12 out of approximately 300 non-P5 D1 schools. All I'm saying is you have set a pretty high standard that few will obtain. Not saying it is not a goal we should pursue, in fact I believe it was part of Mr. Robins vision for the University when he made his original gift, at least for basketball. That would be a huge part of my message to the administration each time I spoke on the subject.

 

[Eight Legger]

The bottom line is that if the new coach doesn’t win a national championship within five years, he must be fired.

 

[SpiderTrap]

The question you have to ask yourself is the following for basketball.

Should we be a school that competes for an NCAA bid every year, not saying we make it every year, but we should be in the hunt every single year (with maybe 1 down year every so often). For comparison - this would be VCU right now. 7 of 8 last years in NCAA tourney, and you better believe if Rhodes doesn't make it this year, they will start talking about his seat getting warm.

OR - should we be a team that realistically only competes for an NCAA bid every 4-5 years? Usually when we have an experienced team. There will likely be more frequent down years and many years without NCAA bids, but we should average an appearance every 4-5 years.

 

[MrTbone]

Well if it’s a question of “should” versus “can” I think it’s an easy question to answer.

 

[Eight Legger]

It's unacceptable to be funded at the levels we are and only compete for a bid every 4-5 years. If that's our intent, drop down to the Big South and pay a coach $200,000 a year to graduate everyone on time, since that seems to be all we care about anyway.

 

[MolivaManiac]

Please keep writing to Hardt and to David Hale, people. Do not let us.