Just noticed our roster has been updated

[VT4700]

I think Goose is our best defender, while at the same time being our most overrated defender. he's good defensively. so was Wilson. but eventually Wilson's lack of offense made his defense irrelevant.

Goose's defense isn't enough to warrant 24+ mpg if he's still scoring 4.5 ppg with 1.1 apg and shooting 31% from 3 this year on a team with fewer scoring threats this year. he's got to pick it up on offense.

I think Tyler is our most underrated defender. he's better on the ball than many here believe. and defensive rebounding is part of defense.

Wilson was a good on the ball defender, bothering the guy bringing the ball up the court. Goose brings way more than that defensively. Goose stays with his guy, both on the ball, and preventing him from getting the ball. He also has much better size than Wilson, which allows him to guard a 6'6 or 6'7 type guy.

I hear you about offense, but he was the 5th option last year. 5th options just aren't going to get a lot of scoring opportunities. He has never averaged more than 4 shots a game because he hasn't had to. With our PG likely not going to match Jacob's offense, I agree we will want more offense from Goose if he is out there 25+ minutes, and I think he is fully capable. I earlier said we need him to be around 35% from 3 ( which would only mean go 18-52 instead of 16-52 last year), but with the additions of Roche and Bigelow, I don't think we will need a lot of 3s from Goose this year. And, whether it is Grace out there and/or the new guys, that will give us better 3 point shooting options than we had with Cayo. So, with his defense, I think we will be in good shape if he gives us 7-8 points a game with the occasional double digit games.

Comparing our 3 point offense this coming year to last year: last year, with Jacob, Goose, Tyler, Nate, and Grant, that is only 2 good 3 point shooters, including 2 that rarely shot the 3, and a 3rd in Goose who only shot 52 of them. That is just not a recipe for success and a good reason why, even with quality offensive talent on the floor, we struggled offensively at times last year. In college basketball now, you better have 3 quality 3 point shooters on the floor. If we get good 3 point shooting from the PG position, we should always have 3 good shooters out there next year, regardless of the lineup, and that does not include Goose. The key will be Nelson or Dji at PG. They don't need to match Jacob, but they need give us enough of a threat from 3 where they are a factor and teams can't play off of them. If not them, Goose will need to step up a hit a few more. If we don't get 3s from our PG and Goose is not making them, I agree there will be times, as good as Goose's defense is, we will need more offense on the floor.

 

[SpiderDad75]

Wilson was a good on the ball defender, bothering the guy bringing the ball up the court. Goose brings way more than that defensively. Goose stays with his guy, both on the ball, and preventing him from getting the ball. He also has much better size than Wilson, which allows him to guard a 6'6 or 6'7 type guy.

I hear you about offense, but he was the 5th option last year. 5th options just aren't going to get a lot of scoring opportunities. He has never averaged more than 4 shots a game because he hasn't had to. With our PG likely not going to match Jacob's offense, I agree we will want more offense from Goose if he is out there 25+ minutes, and I think he is fully capable. I earlier said we need him to be around 35% from 3 ( which would only mean go 18-52 instead of 16-52 last year), but with the additions of Roche and Bigelow, I don't think we will need a lot of 3s from Goose this year. And, whether it is Grace out there and/or the new guys, that will give us better 3 point shooting options than we had with Cayo. So, with his defense, I think we will be in good shape if he gives us 7-8 points a game with the occasional double digit games.

Comparing our 3 point offense this coming year to last year: last year, with Jacob, Goose, Tyler, Nate, and Grant, that is only 2 good 3 point shooters, including 2 that rarely shot the 3, and a 3rd in Goose who only shot 52 of them. That is just not a recipe for success and a good reason why, even with quality offensive talent on the floor, we struggled offensively at times last year. In college basketball now, you better have 3 quality 3 point shooters on the floor. If we get good 3 point shooting from the PG position, we should always have 3 good shooters out there next year, regardless of the lineup, and that does not include Goose. The key will be Nelson or Dji at PG. They don't need to match Jacob, but they need give us enough of a threat from 3 where they are a factor and teams can't play off of them. If not them, Goose will need to step up a hit a few more. If we don't get 3s from our PG and Goose is not making them, I agree there will be times, as good as Goose's defense is, we will need more offense on the floor.

I agree...If Jason and Dji can do those things plus can create and get paint touches and kick out to an open Roche or another solid 3 guy....I like that alot as well. Based on what we've seen with the Roche if our playmakers can drive and kick some, we will be dangerous. I also think if we have Goose and Dji in the game at the same time, defensively we will be pretty good, up top at least. Long and lengthy and just solid on and off the ball guys.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Wilson's legacy will be his 3 against Dayton in A10 semis and that is it.
Defense was his strength but pretty much, out of control on both ends of the court.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

I'm going to disagree with you Spiderman. Goose is not overrated on defense. He's very good. Ask Jimerson.

Goose's defense is also predicated on denial, deflections and he has a very quick first step on both sides of the ball. It's the reason he is better than most on defense and also at turning the corner off the dribble IMO.

 

[LongTimeSpiderFan]

I like defense. I have banged that drum for years now. Have pointed to one of my other fave teams SDSU. Yes, they got screwed worse than anyone named Dayton by pandemic cancelling the tourney - and have struggled since BUT went to two tourney following that - I know they lost and Woodhall thinks that makes them a lesser program. But they have built success YOY with a coaching change thrown in on the back bone of defense. They don't get top 100 recruits either - but by having top 30 defensive metrics can win even in years they can't throw it in the ocean.

I think Mooney likes defense. I think that is why Zay started for much of the year (and obviously Goose out) despite not much offense. When it became clear that other teams were shooting over him easily and Goose was better on D - he came out. I don't think defense is the top core value in a Mooney team. We saw him stick to a failing match up zone system for years. I just think its fluidity and the offense that he emphasizes most.

Back to Sdad's point.

Goose is a very good defender.
From what I have seen on the tape, I think Bigelow is very solid to good.
Dji I think is very good, but still need to see more over extended minutes.
Grace - I think much improved - BUT if playing vs small ball or athletic 4's could have major problems. Next to Quinn, I think good size but not ideal athleticism in today's game.
Quinn - looks a bit slow, great size can make up for some. A super inside source - albeit super biased source , told me Quinn is bad on defense and will get smoked in A10 play. I think he can be competent - but think Bigelow at 4 next to him a bit makes sense.
Nelson - HOPING he is solid.
Burton - agree with sdad, I think he has all the tools to be a big time defender - and my hope is that he comes back and puts that to work. I thought in our A10 run and vs Iowa he played some great D. Hope to see that this year.
Dread - I'll throw him in here. Based on his h.s. tape, his body type, his lateral movement - he looks like a plus defender to me.

So, what I think would be our best defensive lineup:

Dji
Goose
Tyler
Bigelow
Grace

No idea how it plays out on the court, but think that would be good - and Dread too.

Grace over Quinn? I'd put Quinn there sight unseen.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

Roche will get the majority of minutes at two. We need proven scoring. You could argue Roche isn't proven at A10 level, but he'll get the majority. Can't afford a non shooting 2 guard like we could last year.

I look for Roche to get a lot of minutes early in season. I'll be shocked if Mooney doesn't attempt to use him like healthy Sherod. Does Roche consistently produce, time will tell. If he does, he will play a lot all season.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I think you two are more right than wrong..Since we have been here the rotation was kept at about 8 and wasn't it 6-7 toward the second half of the season? Once Dji was hurt it seemed we settled into Matt, Nick, and Connor occasionally.

Pretty much a Mooney pattern. See more guys early in season, by the end 6-7 getting large minutes.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I'm betting on 9 guys getting 10+ mpg with Burton leading the way at about 34.

If that happens it will be outside the Mooney norm. There is a long history of personnel management being Mooney's biggest weakness. If he were to suddenly be successful consistently playing 9, I will be surprised.

 

[VT4700]

Pretty much a Mooney pattern. See more guys early in season, by the end 6-7 getting large minutes.

This is the pattern of a lot of coaches. I would say 90+% of them. Why would you want your 8th or 9th best player getting a lot of minutes?

 

[VT4700]

If that happens it will be outside the Mooney norm. There is a long history of personnel management being Mooney's biggest weakness. If he were to suddenly be successful consistently playing 9, I will be surprised.

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying Mooney has a problem with lineups because he doesn't play 9 guys a lot? I always find it funny when people on here criticize Mooney for doing things in a similar way to most every other coach.

 

[spiderman]

If that happens it will be outside the Mooney norm. There is a long history of personnel management being Mooney's biggest weakness. If he were to suddenly be successful consistently playing 9, I will be surprised.

I just think that barring injury, the roster lays out that way. yes, after a month or 2 someone might lose time.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

This is the pattern of a lot of coaches. I would say 90+% of them. Why would you want your 8th or 9th best player getting a lot of minutes?

I didn't say that I wanted 8th or 9th best player to get a lot of minutes, that is your comment. Also, fyi, my observation was about Mooney's pattern, I said nothing about 90+% of other coaches.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying Mooney has a problem with lineups because he doesn't play 9 guys a lot? I always find it funny when people on here criticize Mooney for doing things in a similar way to most every other coach.

I did not say that Mooney has a problem with lineups because he doesn't play 9 guys a lot.

If you think that Mooney is good at personnel management (specifically how he manages playing time during games) then we disagree. End of discussion.

 

[Long Island Spiders]

I did not say that Mooney has a problem with lineups because he doesn't play 9 guys a lot.

If you think that Mooney is good at personnel management (specifically how he manages playing time during games) then we disagree. End of discussion.

I will never understand how Wilson was the starter for so long. Never.

 

[spider23]

I will never understand how Wilson was the starter for so long. Never.

Yes , good example. Either Dji is not as good as we thought, or just stubborn and mismanagement by Mooney. I think Dji could have been more productive on offense and as good or better on D given the opportunity Wilson had to play big minutes for much of the season prior to Goose return.

 

[Section9.RowD]

Yes , good example. Either Dji is not as good as we thought, or just stubborn and mismanagement by Mooney. I think Dji could have been more productive on offense and as good or better on D given the opportunity Wilson had to play big minutes for much of the season prior to Goose return.

Pretty sure Dji was hurt or at least clearly not 100% much of the time … dji was barely getting healthy when Gus took back over the starting slot

 

[VT4700]

I will never understand how Wilson was the starter for so long. Never.

Who did you want starting while Goose was injured? We had 4 quality scorers on the floor with Wilson. He was the best choice at the time because he gave us some defense, and at least had potential to hit some 3s ( 7-21 in his starts, 2-2 against NC St and 1-1 in 4 other games). We probably started Nick originally because it was obvious we would need better 3 point shooting. So, after Nick, and without Goose, Wilson was the best choice. He played well at times, but definitely had issues with turning the ball over. He pretty much gave me what I expected out of a guy 3rd on the depth chart there behind Nick and Goose.

He did have enough quality games to keep him in there until Goose was ready. His first start against Ga St, he went 4-5 and had 10 points with 3 steals. He had 3 more steals against Hofstra, and had 9 points and was turnover free against Maryland. So, that is 3 of his first 4 starts, so I certainly see no issues with keeping him in there then. Then, after the Miss St loss, we won our final 6 OOC games, and he had some good offensive games in there against No Iowa and NC St. So, I definitely don't remember anyone asking for a change then. So, that leaves only the first 4 OOC games before Goose took over, with Goose playing good minutes in 2 of them as he was getting ready to be the starter.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Yes , good example. Either Dji is not as good as we thought, or just stubborn and mismanagement by Mooney. I think Dji could have been more productive on offense and as good or better on D given the opportunity Wilson had to play big minutes for much of the season prior to Goose return.

Diji was still recovering from injuries in first half of season.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Shawn'dre's freshman year he was buried on the bench until (I think) Ced's injury, then he came in and played great. I think we were all surprised because why bury a good player for so long? But that's Moon's style. He likes what he knows. I think the points about playing the 8th or 9th guy in the rotation - the criticism is more that Moon doesn't get those guys enough minutes to allow them to play through and learn from early season mistakes, or plays them 4m in a first half and 0m in a 2nd half. Not exactly a measure of confidence and so the 8th or 9th man doesn't get the opportunity to play through and make a positive impact. And then Moon shortens his rotation because of that - a bit of a cyclical thing. He has to develop depth better in season and trust anyone in the top 10 slots.

That said - it could be recency bias because Golden, Cayo, Gilyard, Francis, Burton were never not playing big minutes the past few season. Moon was always going to revert to those guys if anything went south at all.

So with more unknowns this year, perhaps Moon can open up his philosophy a bit and actually feed a hot hand even if it's a guy not typically at the top of the rotation.

Wilson having some bad games also coincided with the team having some rough games - St. Joe's, etc. - and the wheels falling off both the offense and defense. He was the only replaceable part though and once Goose was ready he grabbed the minutes. NCAAs - bench minutes vs Iowa were Grace 20, Crabtree 13, Sherod 10. And Nick did not play particularly well. Goose in foul trouble. Wilson got in <1m I think.

 

[Long Island Spiders]

Who did you want starting while Goose was injured? We had 4 quality scorers on the floor with Wilson. He was the best choice at the time because he gave us some defense, and at least had potential to hit some 3s ( 7-21 in his starts, 2-2 against NC St and 1-1 in 4 other games). We probably started Nick originally because it was obvious we would need better 3 point shooting. So, after Nick, and without Goose, Wilson was the best choice. He played well at times, but definitely had issues with turning the ball over. He pretty much gave me what I expected out of a guy 3rd on the depth chart there behind Nick and Goose.

He did have enough quality games to keep him in there until Goose was ready. His first start against Ga St, he went 4-5 and had 10 points with 3 steals. He had 3 more steals against Hofstra, and had 9 points and was turnover free against Maryland. So, that is 3 of his first 4 starts, so I certainly see no issues with keeping him in there then. Then, after the Miss St loss, we won our final 6 OOC games, and he had some good offensive games in there against No Iowa and NC St. So, I definitely don't remember anyone asking for a change then. So, that leaves only the first 4 OOC games before Goose took over, with Goose playing good minutes in 2 of them as he was getting ready to be the starter.

Do you believe some of the stuff you post?

Literally would’ve played anybody. You pick. Dji, Crabtree, Sherod, the ball boy, Spider23, etc.

We also know that Mooney was way too aggressive with subbing him for far too long as well.

 

[spider23]

Diji was still recovering from injuries in first half of season.

Ok my memory is bad , thought he got hurt later in the year, and was just getting the quick hook vs. Wilson being ae to drive into the lane and chuck it up and stay in the game. Crabtree maybe could have used a shot too

 

[Long Island Spiders]

Ok my memory is bad , thought he got hurt later in the year, and was just getting the quick hook vs. Wilson being ae to drive into the lane and chuck it up and stay in the game. Crabtree maybe could have used a shot too

Your memory isn’t bad. He was getting the quick hook.

 

[SpiderDad75]

Your memory isn’t bad. He was getting the quick hook.

Correct…Dji was injured in practice the day before Davidson. Although he did have that bone bruise issue that he missed a couple games then came back for State game and actually stepped on Baby T foot on the layup he made and then that was it.

 

[urmite]

St Joe was an interesting game.
There were the 4 starters - Golden, Gilyard, Burton, Cayo..
But I believe 6 Others got 9 minutes or more - Goose, Sherod, Grace, Crab, Dji, Wilson…
23 points, no assists in 88 minutes…

 

[VT4700]

Shawn'dre's freshman year he was buried on the bench until (I think) Ced's injury, then he came in and played great. I think we were all surprised because why bury a good player for so long? But that's Moon's style. He likes what he knows. I think the points about playing the 8th or 9th guy in the rotation - the criticism is more that Moon doesn't get those guys enough minutes to allow them to play through and learn from early season mistakes, or plays them 4m in a first half and 0m in a 2nd half. Not exactly a measure of confidence and so the 8th or 9th man doesn't get the opportunity to play through and make a positive impact. And then Moon shortens his rotation because of that - a bit of a cyclical thing. He has to develop depth better in season and trust anyone in the top 10 slots.

That said - it could be recency bias because Golden, Cayo, Gilyard, Francis, Burton were never not playing big minutes the past few season. Moon was always going to revert to those guys if anything went south at all.

So with more unknowns this year, perhaps Moon can open up his philosophy a bit and actually feed a hot hand even if it's a guy not typically at the top of the rotation.

Wilson having some bad games also coincided with the team having some rough games - St. Joe's, etc. - and the wheels falling off both the offense and defense. He was the only replaceable part though and once Goose was ready he grabbed the minutes. NCAAs - bench minutes vs Iowa were Grace 20, Crabtree 13, Sherod 10. And Nick did not play particularly well. Goose in foul trouble. Wilson got in <1m I think.

How much time did you want ShanwDre to have as atrue freshman the first half of the season? We had a senior in Ced who averaged 18 a game, and a junior in Kendall who averaged 16 a game. I would want those guys getting a ton of minutes. Not sure why you wouldn't. Before the Ced injury, ShawnDre still played every game, and had games of 15, 14, 13, 11, 11, and 10 minutes. He was never "buried on the bench". So, what would have done? Played ShawnDre 20 minutes right away and not given Ced and Kendall 30+ minutes?

You are contradicting yourself with the ShawnDre example. First you say, ShawnDre was buried on the bench and then came in and played great after the Ced injury, but then you turn around and say Mooney doesn't play guys enough to give them confidence. So, how did ShawnDre play so great after the Ced injury if Mooney messed up his confidence by not playing him more?

Also, you are asking Mooney to do things very few other coaches do: play 10 guys decent minutes early in the season. We have a ton of examples of our guys producing big time over the years after not getting a lot of time early, yet you still get on here and just post stuff like this with very little to back it up. I would say it is just the opposite. Like the ShawnDre example and so many more, Mooney has never been afraid to play freshman if they are good enough, and many have gotten a ton of minutes.

There was no reason for Wilson to get a lot of minutes with Andre healthy, especially at the end of the season. You definitely want your best guys getting all the minutes late in the season. Most everyone shortens their bench dramatically come tourney time. Remember the final four? All 4 teams had very short benches and the starters got a ton of minutes.

 

[VT4700]

Do you believe some of the stuff you post?

Literally would’ve played anybody. You pick. Dji, Crabtree, Sherod, the ball boy, Spider23, etc.

We also know that Mooney was way too aggressive with subbing him for far too long as well.

Yes, I believe everything I post, and unlike so many on here, actually back it up with facts.

 

[SFspidur]

St Joe was an interesting game.
There were the 4 starters - Golden, Gilyard, Burton, Cayo..
But I believe 6 Others got 9 minutes or more - Goose, Sherod, Grace, Crab, Dji, Wilson…
23 points, no assists in 88 minutes…

I think we were looking for someone, anyone who could buy a bucket. The "Big 4" only managed 33 among them.

 

[Long Island Spiders]

Yes, I believe everything I post, and unlike so many on here, actually back it up with facts.

I agree you do usually back it up with facts.
But I also have the benefit of watching every game this season, and it was clear throughout that Mooney stuck with Wilson for far too long. Dji and Crabtree were available more than your post suggested. It was just bad coaching by Mooney.

 

[VT4700]

I think we were looking for someone, anyone who could buy a bucket. The "Big 4" only managed 33 among them.

No doubt. 20-72 overall for the game, and 6-33 from 3. Yikes!!!

 

[VT4700]

I agree you do usually back it up with facts.
But I also have the benefit of watching every game this season, and it was clear throughout that Mooney stuck with Wilson for far too long. Dji and Crabtree were available more than your post suggested. It was just bad coaching by Mooney.

So, when did you want him replaced? We won our last 6 OOC games, and outscored those teams by an average of 72.6 to 61.6, and he played well in a few of them, so you didn't want to change then, did you? Then, the 3rd IC game he only played 18 minutes and 4th 11. I just think you and others have to find things to get on Mooney for, even when they aren't there.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

lol, fact man. I wasn't coming at you or making a statement that 17 years have not borne out.

I look forward to more of your facting.

 

[spiderman]

I agree you do usually back it up with facts.
But I also have the benefit of watching every game this season, and it was clear throughout that Mooney stuck with Wilson for far too long. Dji and Crabtree were available more than your post suggested. It was just bad coaching by Mooney.

we all watch every game. Mooney and his staff have the benefit of seeing these guys practice every day.

we all pine for the guy not playing hoping he's a better option, but Mooney obviously had Wilson ahead of Dji and Connor at that time. without seeing the day to day, I can't say it's a mistake.

that said, while I hope Wilson has success going forward, if we had to lose one this offseason I'm glad we still have Dji and Connor.

 

[VT4700]

Very well said, Sman. And, no question, we have the right two back this year in Dji and Connor. Let's hope they both stay 100% healthy.

 

[spider23]

I still would have liked to see Crab or Dji get a little more extended run than Wilson to see what they could do in games. I understand about practice, but some guys look like killers in practice, and does not translate into games. That is a factor too - and Wilson's decision making never improved in games - and for all his tenaciousness on D - proved not to be a great fit next to GIlly b/c now you had two small guards that the other team could shoot over. It just seems that Wilson got afforded the long hook - apparently based on practice - while the other two got the short hook after one mistake.

 

[SpiderDad75]

I still would have liked to see Crab or Dji get a little more extended run than Wilson to see what they could do in games. I understand about practice, but some guys look like killers in practice, and does not translate into games. That is a factor too - and Wilson's decision making never improved in games - and for all his tenaciousness on D - proved not to be a great fit next to GIlly b/c now you had two small guards that the other team could shoot over. It just seems that Wilson got afforded the long hook - apparently based on practice - while the other two got the short hook after one mistake.

you and me both 😁 To be honest I didn't understand the quick hook. It really is tough being a parent and former coach and know what yours brings to the table. But we always tried to keep DJi grounded, as you get the free year, a lot of players dealing with this bc of COVID, etc...it def gets frustrating sometimes. The staff sees these guys everyday so that is more than any of us. I love what Coach told Dji about what he needs to do this offseason and going forward and if Dji or any player can't do what the staff are asking then how can they play them? I'm pumped bc I see his work ethic has picked up even more . When he was home for 2 wks he working and now they are back he is doing even more than is required. I'm sure the others are too. Then you just have to go out there and bust everyones butt...As I tell Dji - every day, every play! If you do that then its going to be hard for you not to be on the floor. 🕷️🏀

 

[spiderman]

Wilson certainly got plenty of chances. as 4700 said, he did have some success. but he regressed as the season wore on. Mooney eventually moved on.

personally I reward the best players in practice. I don't know how you can run a team where someone is great in practice but you give his minutes to someone who isn't playing as well in practive just to see how he does in games. at least not with young guys. I get it if a veteran is nursing sore knees or something. but when guys are considered close to equal, you have to reward the guy who stands out in practice. otherwise you kill morale.

 

[spider23]

I didn't say you reward the guy who sucks in practice, missing the point. But you cant keep rolling out the guy - WIlson - who continually drives into traffic - with no apparent floater, finishing game - and throws it up or to the other team. That certainly killed morale of the folks on this board, and guessing teammates at times .

 

[spiderman]

Mooney obviously believed Wilson would come around with more chances. he didn't. once Goose was ready to take over, Wilson got buried.

Connor got a decent amount of run early in the year too. I don't know why Wilson got more chances than Dji. Mooney saw something in Wilson. it didn't develop. at least not yet.

 

[gcarter52]

Mooney obviously believed Wilson would come around with more chances. he didn't. once Goose was ready to take over, Wilson got buried.

Connor got a decent amount of run early in the year too. I don't know why Wilson got more chances than Dji. Mooney saw something in Wilson. it didn't develop. at least not yet.

I’m sure if Dji hadn’t been injured, he would have gotten plenty of run.

 

[urmite]

I’m sure if Dji hadn’t been injured, he would have gotten plenty of run.

Do you mean in the A-10 or before?

That is what I wanted to ask Dad75. How close were Crab & Dji to 100% during the OOC?