Syracuse Game Thread 11/21/2022

SpiderTrap

Graduate Assistant
Nov 6, 2007
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Few quick observations.

1) We have no depth. We are a 7 man team this year. I think Bailey is only playing right now because Grace is out - but when he returns, expect Bailey to play less than 5 minutes or none at all.

2) Burton - he is taking some tough shots, mainly because in years past he had other creating for him and putting him in good positions. This year - he can't rely on that and I think the coaches need to help out - design some plays specifically for him.

3) Quinn - I feel like this was his best game to date, but I would still bench him and start Grace and Bigelow when Grace is ready. But I like what I saw out of Quinn most of the game and think he is getting better and more comfortable.

4) Goose - we are getting no offense whatsoever out of him. It might be a matter of time before Roche starts for him, but I think Mooney will ride Goose as a starter as long as possible. I like Roche off the bench, gives us a shooter and I think it gives Roche time to see the game and see the openings.

Lets win tomorrow and get out of here 1-1. Going 0-2 is not an option now.
 

spiderjpo

Assistant Coach
Mar 11, 2004
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The thing with Syracuse is they do not make adjustments on defense. You know what they are going to do every possession. It takes the right pieces in the right spots and proper execution to get a good shot. As some have commented we did execute well on many second half possessions. At crunch time we did not finish, missed free throws and did not get shots off at key times. That is lack of execution. That is why we lost. We don’t even now what the play was on the last possession in regulation as we turned it over without even attempting a shot. My gripe with Mooney on that play is that our center is not our best option to handle a pass in the middle of a zone to make a play. Last year yes. This year not yet.
 

SpiderGuy

Team Manager
Oct 13, 2014
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so much to dislike about this, I knew it was over when we went to OT I guess I should be happy we even got there in the first place
Charleston and Syracuse. - we can’t wrap up the package and put a bow on it end of games. Didn’t bother to put WS in there cause we were chasing in that game.

Patterns repeat.
 

SFspidur

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May 5, 2003
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Sorry, everybody...my fault. I had some stuff going on and was only able to listen in the car to the first 6 minutes and then the final possession of regulation + OT. Clearly I should have just tuned out for the whole game and we would have won going away.
 

SpiderGuy

Team Manager
Oct 13, 2014
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Common theme here is we were down or tied in those games. He HAD to attack. My frustration is we try to milk the clock with a lead, lose momentum, can't get it back, run out of time and lose by 2. It seems to happen all the time.
Agree. Mooney’s self destruction momentum end of game strategy. Have seen it over and over and over again. Expect it to continue throughout the season.
 

urmite

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Dec 2, 2004
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I am just a bit confused on this t

Ok this is just blasphemy. Burton was hard to watch tonight for most of the game, yes. Borderline A-10 player? He was a 2nd-team All-A10 player LAST YEAR, with Golden and Gilyard on the team. The guy had 38 2 games ago. Again, he was hard to watch tonight. He is much better than a solid college player. If he wanted to transfer this summer, he would have went to ANY school in the country that he wanted to. This loss is frustrating, and Tyler was BAD, but this take is even worse.
One minor point. I think he said border line ALL A-10 player, not borderline A-10.

Although I agree with your point…
 

GKiller

Head Coach
Jun 3, 2003
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We should/could have won all three of these games. An ACC, AAC and high-level CAA opponent with a shot to be ranked. At 5-0 with that resume, yes, we should be talking about at-large bids. And that should always be the goal anyway at a program like this.

Exactly. We could easily be 5-0. If so we would certainly be talking about it. Why wouldn’t we expect it…bc we went last year?…so what…it’s still 3 bids in 16 years…a good program doesn’t accept that & be ok returning to a drought.
 

POMSpidur

Rookie
May 26, 2022
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Let me get this right.. against WSU we need to get more lay ups and free throws. We get more lay ups and free throws form our best player today… and it’s Mooney’s fault? Is this what I’m hearing?
 

GKiller

Head Coach
Jun 3, 2003
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I agree with some of what was said here. At-large takes were optimistic to say the least. 18 wins sounds about right (hopefully). It is upsetting that we could be 5-0. I am just confused about the "not prepared" takes. During last year when we lost it was because of Mooney. When we went on the run, it was because "the seniors weren't going to lose". Now, it is Mooney's fault again. Sometimes, and hear me out here, it is on the players. Tyler missed 5 free throws, we turned the ball over, we didn't box out, we fouled on a three point shooter AGAIN. I get it, the head coach gets the grunt of it, but how could Mooney control all of that? Win, it is the players. Lose, it is Mooney. Logic doesn't seem to add up.

He’s the one who has been given 22 years of job security making millions. For possibly 3 bids. 22 years. I’m not giving up on this team or year by a longshot but yes, the logic does add up.
 

brooklyn brownstone

Team Manager
Oct 31, 2007
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Went to the game, picked up this thread postgame on the pages where the endgame and overtime happened, am glad to see everyone recognizes the coaching disaster that befell the team tonight. Players again not given the chance to win the game, instead the 18-year-old issue of dribble the ball into the ground and run the Moonball "offense" - which doesn't work in the endgame - taking over. This time it was the Moon zone offense reverting back to the same as it was at the start of the game, tentative and passive. Identical scenario to WSU game where the team fed off its coach's demeanor and philosophy, and tried to just play the game the way the coach wants - micromanaged, no flow, an anything but a turnover mentality, instead of trying to actually making winning basketball plays. In other words, playing not to make mistakes rather than playing aggressively to win. Every possession in regulation endgame was Nelson with the ball until 10-12 seconds left in the clock, or him and Gustavson passing back and forth with no meaning or purpose until that point. It was an unmitigated disaster of coaching. When he called timeout with 17s left, the non-UR friends I was with asked if Burton would get an iso for the last shot. My reply was "He won't touch the ball." He didn't.

Glad he took some more timeouts home. Barclays timeouts are especially valuable.

For me the shine is off the ncaa win and we're back at square .550 again.

I support the players but not the coach. It's unfortunate. The NCAA run was a mirage that Jacob Gilyard pulled out of his hat with help from Matt Grace. But the coach is the issue and until he figures out how to coach the last 5m of games against teams who actually play defense, it's gonna be .550 over and over. We were the suckers for thinking otherwise with the sample size we have.
 

Gallipoli

Graduate Assistant
Aug 20, 2017
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The Doghouse
Sorry, everybody...my fault. I had some stuff going on and was only able to listen in the car to the first 6 minutes and then the final possession of regulation + OT. Clearly I should have just tuned out for the whole game and we would have won going away.
This is on you. We are all counting on you.
 

whampas

Graduate Assistant
Jan 2, 2007
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Went to the game, picked up this thread postgame on the pages where the endgame and overtime happened, am glad to see everyone recognizes the coaching disaster that befell the team tonight. Players again not given the chance to win the game, instead the 18-year-old issue of dribble the ball into the ground and run the Moonball "offense" - which doesn't work in the endgame - taking over. This time it was the Moon zone offense reverting back to the same as it was at the start of the game, tentative and passive. Identical scenario to WSU game where the team fed off its coach's demeanor and philosophy, and tried to just play the game the way the coach wants - micromanaged, no flow, an anything but a turnover mentality, instead of trying to actually making winning basketball plays. In other words, playing not to make mistakes rather than playing aggressively to win. Every possession in regulation endgame was Nelson with the ball until 10-12 seconds left in the clock, or him and Gustavson passing back and forth with no meaning or purpose until that point. It was an unmitigated disaster of coaching. When he called timeout with 17s left, the non-UR friends I was with asked if Burton would get an iso for the last shot. My reply was "He won't touch the ball." He didn't.

Glad he took some more timeouts home. Barclays timeouts are especially valuable.

For me the shine is off the ncaa win and we're back at square .550 again.

I support the players but not the coach. It's unfortunate. The NCAA run was a mirage that Jacob Gilyard pulled out of his hat with help from Matt Grace. But the coach is the issue and until he figures out how to coach the last 5m of games against teams who actually play defense, it's gonna be .550 over and over. We were the suckers for thinking otherwise with the sample size we have.
Absolutely.
 

plydogg

Team Manager
Mar 2, 2018
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Burton collapses in crucial moments as he did last year.
That’s funny, I remember him having 16 and 12 in the A-10 championship, but maybe that wasn’t a crucial moment in the season.

Then again, he had a clunker of a game with 18 and 11 against Iowa right?

Our best player has one bad half (and still had 13 points & 15 rebounds) and you’re ready to make him walk the plank? Be better.
 

plydogg

Team Manager
Mar 2, 2018
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The irony was in the middle of the game we actually did pretty well against the zone. Then we forgot what we had done, apparently. Syracuse tried to give us a two or three possession lead repeatedly down the stretch and we refused. That cost us the game in the end.
You would have thought we learned not to do this after the last two games
 
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PASpider

Starter
Apr 13, 2007
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Tyler Burton is rebounding machine but does not play relaxed on offense. He forced way too
many situations. Why did he not put Dji in more in second half simply for ball handling. He steals
ball in second half and loses it going up for layup and never sees floor again. Also why slow. down the pressure,
when that is what got us going.
Don’t forget throwing a pass ten feet over his teammate’s head.
 

gospidersgo

Team Manager
Dec 21, 2015
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As mentioned by several on here we could and probably should be 5-0 right now, that is what is most frustrating to me. We clearly have the talent to be a potential tournament team. It seems we are experts at the entire game except for the first 5 minutes and last 5 minutes.

I've been critical of Mooney in the past and there's plenty to be down on him about. But he should get credit for having us in position to win a semi road game against a tough ACC opponent that we all agreed would be a difficult matchup for us due to their size, length, and athleticism.

But he also deserves the blame for the pathetic last several possessions, particularly of regulation time. It's inexcusable to take the air out of the ball like that, especially with such a track record of seeing how it does not work for us. The aggressiveness and fire that got us back into this game (and Charleston, and Wichita St......) Is abandoned for some reason as soon as we take the lead and some semblance of control. Really frustrating to watch and cheer for when you can see the same old habits popping up.
 

spider23

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Excellent post Go. Mooney does deserve credit for putting this roster together and putting together a team that should win a lot of games, but reverts to same strategies. This is where I am hoping g Boyden can continue to influence, but he may be a more defensive focused coach.
 

I-M-UR

Graduate Assistant
Mar 10, 2006
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Mooney has abdicated control to his point guards in close games for ever. Nelson is not ready. I would love to know who decided to take the air out of the ball in the last minutes. Syracuse didn’t change defenses. Mooney had 3 timeouts left. 3 consecutive shot clock violations. Complete incompetence.
 
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Feb 2, 2022
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I was at the game fairly close up. Good to see at least some Spider fans in attendance. Many positives but overshadowed (again) by so many negatives, especially those that recur game to game. Even when they were up 5 late you knew in your heart they would not win.

Some (lots) of fault of course on Mooney but the players also couldn't execute to win when needed. But kudos to the players that after the low-energy start they played their hearts out despite the outcome.

But how can we continue to start most games so slow and with no energy? OK, maybe playing at the big arena with a pro-Syr crowd took some getting used to - but the same thing happens at home against lesser opponents. No field goals for over 5 minutes at the end of regulation, happens so often you come to expect it. All those (uncharacteristic) turnovers and blocked shots. But most annoying of all is those shot clock violations - and how can that happen so often right in front of your own bench? Shouldn't the coaches and bench players be shouting out as the clock winds down. The other thing driving me crazy - so many offensive possessions where the ball is passed uselessly around the perimeter and then desperation sets in with 5 seconds left to shoot. One more - absolutely no idea on how to set up for a game winning shot. And I love Goose but those swooping drives to the basket usually don't end well.

I've been thinking how things might have been different if Matt had been healthy, but not convinced that would have resulted in a W. Am I wrong?

But there are good signs amid the misery. A few bounces the other way and we're 4-1 and maybe even 5-0. Team has shown they can come back from big deficits. We actually rebounded last night - even on the offensive glass (miracles do happen!). These losses could be a positive if it builds character and the team (and coaches) learn from it. We'll see if that happens. Losses like this are quickly forgotten if you build on them and succeed when A10 play gets going.

Enough commentary. Win tonight. Ugh, 9:30 start. The building will empty out. Go Spiders!
 

Eight Legger

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May 27, 2003
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As in most every year past, we find new and creatine ways to lose games more often than we do to win them. I'd love to see data on how many games we lost after holding the lead with about 5 minutes left vs. how many we win after trailing at that point. And I mean like winning most of the way until later and then losing, compared with losing most of the way and then winning late. Suspect it won't be pretty.

I was having flashbacks last night to last year's Maryland/Mississippi State tournament, where we blew both games in similar fashion.
 
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spider23

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Yep, to ad to the ad nauseum, we probably had a good 10 possessions where we passed it around the perimeter until 6-7 seconds left on the clock and then just tried to salvage a shot. In Goose defense, his drives were usually result of getting the ball with 5 seconds left on the clock. Thought he played solid, BUT when he is on the perimeter he is not looking to shoot the 3 so it doesn't create any space even by being a threat.

I thought Quinn looked pretty good. He had a few where he had it 5 feet from the basket and ended up passing ito the 5'11 guy 10 feet from the basket. But then he had that super nice move, and was getting some opportunities and taking it hard to the basket at other times. If we had Roche AND one more perimeter threat - I think we would be a lot more dangerous - I like Bigelow and Burton attacking and kick to Roche or who ever can make a shot. I think Nelson can make threes as he gets more comfortable.
 

GKiller

Head Coach
Jun 3, 2003
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the lineup that got us back in the game in 1st half was burton, bigelow, bailey, goose & roche. no big man. long versatile. I don't know how often we'll expect to see that, but I was last night because it was working. but did we go back to it in 2nd?
 

SpiderDad75

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the lineup that got us back in the game in 1st half was burton, bigelow, bailey, goose & roche. no big man. long versatile. I don't know how often we'll expect to see that, but I was last night because it was working. but did we go back to it in 2nd?
Agreed, totally baffled as to why we didn’t either. A head scratcher and frustrating for me personally but you guys been around a lot longer and maybe understand that better than me.
 
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SpiderDad75

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I thought Dji played really well in the early part of the game. I was hoping to see more of him. It seemed that - as someone else mentioned - he got a steal and then lost the ball or couldn't finish the breakaway and Mooney pulled him and relegated to the bench.
Yeah, between that and just going with Goose too long no other way to explain it. 🤷🏼‍♂️ Goose had his moments not hating on him but there were times we should have made a change. It didn’t necessarily have to be with Dji either.
 

VT4700

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Dec 16, 2016
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the lineup that got us back in the game in 1st half was burton, bigelow, bailey, goose & roche. no big man. long versatile. I don't know how often we'll expect to see that, but I was last night because it was working. but did we go back to it in 2nd?
This lineup was barely on the floor, so I don't know how you could read this much into it. It was 18-13 Cuse when this lineup appeared, and it was 20-18 Cuse when it left, so we had already gotten back in the game before this lineup appeared.
 

VT4700

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Agreed, totally baffled as to why we didn’t either. A head scratcher and frustrating for me personally but you guys been around a lot longer and maybe understand that better than me.
Uh....maybe because we barely played that lineup in the 1st half, and we outscored them 33-23 the 1st 14 minutes of the 2nd half without it?
 
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