Syracuse Game Thread 11/21/2022

VT4700

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I thought Dji played really well in the early part of the game. I was hoping to see more of him. It seemed that - as someone else mentioned - he got a steal and then lost the ball or couldn't finish the breakaway and Mooney pulled him and relegated to the bench.
Dji played pretty good, but I'm not sure it was the turnover that kept him out. I think it was probably how well we played the first 14 minutes of the 2nd half that kept him out. He is behind Nelson, Goose, and Roche, and I haven't seen anything that tells me that will change. If the main guys are clicking out there, you need to ride them. And next year, he will probably be behind Nelson, Smith, and Roche. And, that's okay. He can still be a key depth piece for us. I look at it like if Walz came in and gave us some good minutes, that doesn't mean he needs a lot more time. He is still behind guys, and when you get some minutes, you are expected to play well. Otherwise, you would never see the floor.
 

8legs1dream

Team Manager
This lineup was barely on the floor, so I don't know how you could read this much into it. It was 18-13 Cuse when this lineup appeared, and it was 20-18 Cuse when it left, so we had already gotten back in the game before this lineup appeared.

I bet if one particular name wasn't in that group that sparked signs of life in us you would have been all for it, now why is that?
 
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SpiderDad75

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We know why
I bet if one particular name wasn't in that group that sparked signs of life in us you would have been all for it, now why is that?
We know why…hears that name and it’s 😂
dave chappelle hate GIF
 

spiderman

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that was a GREAT basketball game until 6 minutes left. I think the last 6 minutes have been pretty well covered already. but a couple more thoughts:

1) that was the game to start Roche. against a zone team it was no suprise that starting lineup fell behind quickly. end of the day I guess it didn't matter as he still got Roche in for 30, but we needed shooting. and I hated attacking that zone with Burton at the foul line too. he's one of our only shooters in that starting lineup. Bigelow would be good there. heck, I'd rather Goose be in the high post than Burton.

2) hate to give credit to a d-bag heckler, but sure seemed like the guy yelling at Burton all game got in his head. that or just a coincidence Tyler struggled offensively late. we got what some here wanted with the tighter rotation, but Tyler needed to sit, catch his breath, and get some motivational speaking from Boyden. 45 minutes is too much. he rebounded like a beast, btw.

3) I don't understand the criticism of Nelson on the board today. he was really good. I thought he'd struggle against that zone. he was impressive and one of the best players on the floor. the end game stuff ... we weren't moving as well as we had been. maybe that was an effect of the tighter rotation too. there was some confusion on who should flash. sometimes nobody did. you could see guys getting frustrated. but I don't think he chose to hold the ball, and I don't think Mooney told him to either.

4) that's a tough zone. yet despite all the criticism of how we attacked it ... we were pretty successful turnovers aside (which have been an issue all year). I don't know why they call it a 2-3 zone. guess you have to call it something. never looks like a 2-3. looks almost like a 4-1. they're long and athletic as always.

5) I actually thought the refs were good, or at least consistent. they felt like NBA refs as they let a lot of physical play go, but we played physical too. Burton and Quinn really hit the boards. balls must not have bouced Bigelow's way because we know he's a rebounder.

6) Quinn was pretty good but I really want him to figure out a way to quickly get the ball on the rim from inside 5 feet against size rather than look to pass out of there.

end of the day, all of these frustrations on the endgame would disappear if Burton hit FTs, but maybe that is partly on Mooney for not getting him a blow. I didn't see a replay but that last possession of regulation looked like a really bad pass from Isaiah. nothing Quinn could do there.
 

SpiderGuy

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I thought Dji played really well in the early part of the game. I was hoping to see more of him. It seemed that - as someone else mentioned - he got a steal and then lost the ball or couldn't finish the breakaway and Mooney pulled him and relegated to the bench.
Standard Operating Procedure for Mooney. For those of who have been with this program for many years, we’ve seen Mooney predictably pull players after a mistake or perceived error.

Chris, let the guys play and build confidence without looking over their shoulders.
 
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SpiderDad75

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Standard Operating Procedure for Mooney. For those of who have been with this program for many years, we’ve seen Mooney predictably pull players after a mistake or perceived error.

Chris, let the guys play and build confidence without looking over their shoulders.
He pulled Mike immediately after his TO and certain guys just get the benefit bc they’ve been here longer. It seems to be just that simple.
 

97spiderfan

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He pulled Mike immediately after his TO and certain guys just get the benefit bc they’ve been here longer. It seems to be just that simple.
Yes, it is that simple. Goose had a terrible turnover that led to a wide open dunk and then fouled Girard on a long 3 (second time in 3 games where he's done that in critical game situations). I actually think he came out after fouling Girard, but yeah, pretty clear he gets a lot more rope than Dji/Randolph.

As the other poster said, it has been that ways for year. He has his guys who fit comfortably for Mooney into his system and it is very difficult for him to change.

Only solution is to make big plays. Roche made some big plays last night so he got more run.
 

GKiller

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This lineup was barely on the floor, so I don't know how you could read this much into it. It was 18-13 Cuse when this lineup appeared, and it was 20-18 Cuse when it left, so we had already gotten back in the game before this lineup appeared.

u r right we were already back in game, but it just seemed that lineup was active offensively & defensively. I think Quinn came in for Bailey for part of that too. I would have tried it again that's all. & I'm sure it was briefer than I imagined but i was just going by memory. What r u using to look up the floor combinations?
 

97spiderfan

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that was a GREAT basketball game until 6 minutes left. I think the last 6 minutes have been pretty well covered already. but a couple more thoughts:

1) that was the game to start Roche. against a zone team it was no suprise that starting lineup fell behind quickly. end of the day I guess it didn't matter as he still got Roche in for 30, but we needed shooting. and I hated attacking that zone with Burton at the foul line too. he's one of our only shooters in that starting lineup. Bigelow would be good there. heck, I'd rather Goose be in the high post than Burton.

2) hate to give credit to a d-bag heckler, but sure seemed like the guy yelling at Burton all game got in his head. that or just a coincidence Tyler struggled offensively late. we got what some here wanted with the tighter rotation, but Tyler needed to sit, catch his breath, and get some motivational speaking from Boyden. 45 minutes is too much. he rebounded like a beast, btw.

3) I don't understand the criticism of Nelson on the board today. he was really good. I thought he'd struggle against that zone. he was impressive and one of the best players on the floor. the end game stuff ... we weren't moving as well as we had been. maybe that was an effect of the tighter rotation too. there was some confusion on who should flash. sometimes nobody did. you could see guys getting frustrated. but I don't think he chose to hold the ball, and I don't think Mooney told him to either.

4) that's a tough zone. yet despite all the criticism of how we attacked it ... we were pretty successful turnovers aside (which have been an issue all year). I don't know why they call it a 2-3 zone. guess you have to call it something. never looks like a 2-3. looks almost like a 4-1. they're long and athletic as always.

5) I actually thought the refs were good, or at least consistent. they felt like NBA refs as they let a lot of physical play go, but we played physical too. Burton and Quinn really hit the boards. balls must not have bouced Bigelow's way because we know he's a rebounder.

6) Quinn was pretty good but I really want him to figure out a way to quickly get the ball on the rim from inside 5 feet against size rather than look to pass out of there.

end of the day, all of these frustrations on the endgame would disappear if Burton hit FTs, but maybe that is partly on Mooney for not getting him a blow. I didn't see a replay but that last possession of regulation looked like a really bad pass from Isaiah. nothing Quinn could do there.
Yes, Burton should have hit some of those FT's but agree also that him playing all 45 minutes is rationale for why he didn't. He didn't appear tired, but Burton is a high energy player, he had to be, especially going up against players who were given rest.
 
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8legs1dream

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2) hate to give credit to a d-bag heckler, but sure seemed like the guy yelling at Burton all game got in his head. that or just a coincidence Tyler struggled offensively late. we got what some here wanted with the tighter rotation, but Tyler needed to sit, catch his breath, and get some motivational speaking from Boyden. 45 minutes is too much. he rebounded like a beast, btw.

I'm curious what type of heckling you think was enough to get in his head so badly. What was being said, for those of us watching from home?
 

whampas

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I don't buy the tired excuse(reason). Free throw practice should follow practice and after wind sprints. Best to practice when you're tired. "You can go home after you make 5 in a row." Coach Don Thompson Amherst HS 1968.
 

SpiderTrap

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Some things are pretty consistent year to year.

We always have scoring droughts. Against Syracuse - we had 3 of them. 2 point in first 5 minutes. Then near end of first half we were stuck on 27 points for over 4 minutes, and then to end the game we were up 3 with about 6 minutes (62-59) and didn't score for about 5 minutes. These are very common the past few years.

Another thing becoming more common - slow starts. Get behind in the first half and battle back in the 2nd.

Some of this is the players - for sure. No doubt. And some if coaching as well. Unfortunately - the players seldom get the blame, it will always fall on the coach. This is why they make the big bucks.
 

VT4700

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We know why

We know why…hears that name and it’s 😂
dave chappelle hate GIF
We know why???? What do you mean? G mentioned a lineup that was out there for about 2 minutes together. Sorry, but I don't think a lineup that was barely out there affected the game that much. Not sure why this means I am hating on anyone or anything.
 

VT4700

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He pulled Mike immediately after his TO and certain guys just get the benefit bc they’ve been here longer. It seems to be just that simple.
Yes, Tyler will get the benefit of the doubt more. And, other guys who are ahead of other guys in the rotation will get the benefit of the doubt more. Happens everywhere. But, being here longer has nothing to do with it. It comes down to who gives you the best chance to win out there. Quinn has been here the same time as Walz. Quinn beat him out and is the better option. As a result, he shouldn't get pulled as fast for mistakes. Same with Nelson and Dji. Dji has actaully been here longer, but If Nelson turns the ball over, sorry, I am not taking him out. He is our best option and gives us the best chance to win out there, so, yes, he will get the benefit of the doubt more.
 
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VT4700

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u r right we were already back in game, but it just seemed that lineup was active offensively & defensively. I think Quinn came in for Bailey for part of that too. I would have tried it again that's all. & I'm sure it was briefer than I imagined but i was just going by memory. What r u using to look up the floor combinations?
Play by play which shows subs. I read your post, and didn't remember seeing that lineup out there that much, so I looked it up. It was 7-2 when Dji came in for Goose. Then, 10-2 when Walz came in for Quinn. Then, 14-2 when Roche and Quinn came in for Bigelow and Walz. Then, 18-13 when the lineup you mentioned played for about 2 minutes.
 

spiderman

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I don't buy the tired excuse(reason). Free throw practice should follow practice and after wind sprints. Best to practice when you're tired. "You can go home after you make 5 in a row." Coach Don Thompson Amherst HS 1968.
if rest wasn't needed, everyone would play 5 players. some players definitely can go longer than others, and I think Tyler's that kind of athlete. but 45 is a lot. he's a good FT shooter, so something affected him.
 

spiderman

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I'm curious what type of heckling you think was enough to get in his head so badly. What was being said, for those of us watching from home?
just loud almost non-stop chirping in the 2nd half from one guy close to the court on the side where we were shooting. nothing offensive. but he, and the people within earshot, certainly believed he had an effect.
 
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VT4700

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Some things are pretty consistent year to year.

We always have scoring droughts. Against Syracuse - we had 3 of them. 2 point in first 5 minutes. Then near end of first half we were stuck on 27 points for over 4 minutes, and then to end the game we were up 3 with about 6 minutes (62-59) and didn't score for about 5 minutes. These are very common the past few years.

Another thing becoming more common - slow starts. Get behind in the first half and battle back in the 2nd.

Some of this is the players - for sure. No doubt. And some if coaching as well. Unfortunately - the players seldom get the blame, it will always fall on the coach. This is why they make the big bucks.
Yep, coaches make the big bucks, but I don't know how you change slow starts unless you want to start Roche, and maybe we will soon. I think every team has scoring droughts. Syracuse had them too last night. Basketball is always full of runs. If you average 70 points a game, you don't get there by scoring 7 points every 4 minutes. Some on here only focus on our negative runs and forget the positive ones, but every team often has both.
 

GKiller

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Play by play which shows subs. I read your post, and didn't remember seeing that lineup out there that much, so I looked it up. It was 7-2 when Dji came in for Goose. Then, 10-2 when Walz came in for Quinn. Then, 14-2 when Roche and Quinn came in for Bigelow and Walz. Then, 18-13 when the lineup you mentioned played for about 2 minutes.

Play-by-play has all the subs in and out:


Thanks. Knew about play by play. That's just a lot of work to look up tho. Was hoping there was some site available that tracked it.
 

97spiderfan

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just loud almost non-stop chirping in the 2nd half from one guy close to the court on the side where we were shooting. nothing offensive. but he, and the people within earshot, certainly believed he had an effect.
If a fan is going to throw off our performance, we have issues. Wasn't there, but Tyler's been in a lot of tough environments, I doubt he was impacted by some rando Syracuse dude heckling him.
 
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POMSpidur

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Standard Operating Procedure for Mooney. For those of who have been with this program for many years, we’ve seen Mooney predictably pull players after a mistake or perceived error.

Chris, let the guys play and build confidence without looking over their shoulders.
We watched multiple shot clock violations and turnovers and players stayed in the game… this isn’t the YMCA either.
 

spider23

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hate to give credit to a d-bag heckler, but sure seemed like the guy yelling at Burton all game got in his head. that or just a coincidence Tyler struggled offensively late. we got what some here wanted with the tighter rotation, but Tyler needed to sit, catch his breath, and get some motivational speaking from Boyden. 45 minutes is too much. he rebounded like a beast, btw.
I did not hear the heckler, but was doing some yelling myself. I was sitting behind one basket nearer the RIchmond bench, not in the courtside section. Not to make excuses on Burton's FT's, because he flat bricked them, but a cuse fan closer to the court behind the basket put his cell phone on a blinking flashlight mode, that pretty much blinded me. He was waving it on at least a couple of the FT's. If I was not old and lazy, and wanted to avoid jail too, I was tempted to walk down, take the phone and ground it into pieces under my shoe. But I resisted.
 
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spiderman

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If a fan is going to throw off our performance, we have issues. Wasn't there, but Tyler's been in a lot of tough environments, I doubt he was impacted by some rando Syracuse dude heckling him.
I'm sure he's heard stuff since at least high school. but his 2nd half shooting and handling we definitely not up to his standards. might just be a coincidence. but this fan and his kid went home feeling like he won the game for them.
 

GKiller

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I did not hear the heckler, but was doing some yelling myself. I was sitting behind one basket nearer the RIchmond bench, not in the courtside section. Not to make excuses on Burton's FT's, because he flat bricked them, but a cuse fan closer to the court behind the basket put his cell phone on a blinking flashlight mode, that pretty much blinded me. He was waving it on at least a couple of the FT's. If I was not old and lazy, and wanted to avoid jail too, I was tempted to walk down, take the phone and ground it into pieces under my shoe. But I resisted.

They were probably both from Ronkonkoma
 
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VT4700

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We aren't talking about Tyler here and everyone knows that. Come on now.
I was replying to SDad saying it is as simple as saying guys get the benefit because they have been here longer. I don't think being here longer has anything to do with that. I think talent does, and being ahead of guys in the rotation. So, I used Tyler as an example. And, SDad brought up Walz so I compared Quinn and Walz and Nelson and Dji.
 

spiderman

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you earn the coach's confidence with strong play over a good period of time. Walz certainly hasn't earned anyone's confidence yet. on the other hand, I liked how Dji played. I don't fault a guy for one lost ball on a break. I think Randolph deserved a longer leash too. and Crabtree looked smooth in warmups. would have like him to come in for Burton for a couple of minutes.
 

SpiderDad75

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you earn the coach's confidence with strong play over a good period of time. Walz certainly hasn't earned anyone's confidence yet. on the other hand, I liked how Dji played. I don't fault a guy for one lost ball on a break. I think Randolph deserved a longer leash too. and Crabtree looked smooth in warmups. would have like him to come in for Burton for a couple of minutes.
Agree…and every team doesn’t do it either. Coach is sticking with guys who has been here longer. Tyler needs to be on the floor imo. Give him breaks when you can. But Djis 1st half play certainly warranted more in the 2nd, but we went with Goose primarily and his stat line/play wasn’t that great last night and should have sat some in 2nd. Roche was hot and needs to be on the court when he is. Who ever saying the better players always play, I disagree and I think it’s been proven that isn’t the case with a couple of guys on this team. I think we are a better team with our athletes on the floor, that includes Goose at times. Neal is improving and was decent last night he’s just limited with his quickness and speed. I would have liked to see more Marcus last night as well.
 

Eight Legger

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Quinn just needs to remember that he's 7 feet tall, go up strong and dunk the thing. He's either going to make it or get fouled, that's it. He got the ball inside a few times yesterday and looked afraid to go up with it, and once or twice brought it down too low and it was stolen.
 

VT4700

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you earn the coach's confidence with strong play over a good period of time. Walz certainly hasn't earned anyone's confidence yet. on the other hand, I liked how Dji played. I don't fault a guy for one lost ball on a break. I think Randolph deserved a longer leash too. and Crabtree looked smooth in warmups. would have like him to come in for Burton for a couple of minutes.
Strong play will obviously help, but when you are behind guys in the rotation you probably need to add something the team needs to get more time. Guys like Dji, Randolph, and Crab should do well when they get in there. We expect them to play well. But, even if they play well, it doesn't mean they deserve to be out there longer. You, like me, have always been a best guys play guy. Now, you want more minutes for guys? They should play well. That is why they would get any minutes at all. But, to get more, what can they do to impact the game, or help from a need basis? Roche is going to give us much needed 3 point shooting. He is a weapon out there. As a result, he will get a lot of time. I'm not sure what Dji, Randolph, or Crab could do to get more time. Randolph and Crab could maybe get hot from 3, and Randolph with his contagious energy could be a way to get some more minutes.

But, these guys are who they are. It's not that I dislike any of them. They are just behind guys. I wouldn't expect a lot of minutes from any of them. I feel like we will probably be discussing this all year, but it is what it is. We have a clear top 6 right now and a clear top 7 when Grace is back.
 

VT4700

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Agree…and every team doesn’t do it either. Coach is sticking with guys who has been here longer. Tyler needs to be on the floor imo. Give him breaks when you can. But Djis 1st half play certainly warranted more in the 2nd, but we went with Goose primarily and his stat line/play wasn’t that great last night and should have sat some in 2nd. Roche was hot and needs to be on the court when he is. Who ever saying the better players always play, I disagree and I think it’s been proven that isn’t the case with a couple of guys on this team. I think we are a better team with our athletes on the floor, that includes Goose at times. Neal is improving and was decent last night he’s just limited with his quickness and speed. I would have liked to see more Marcus last night as well.
But, we outscored them 33-23 the 1st 14 minutes of the 2nd half. Cmon, be fair and try to be less biased. If Dji were out there during that 2nd half stretch, would you have wanted us to change anything?
 

SpiderDad75

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Quinn just needs to remember that he's 7 feet tall, go up strong and dunk the thing. He's either going to make it or get fouled, that's it. He got the ball inside a few times yesterday and looked afraid to go up with it, and once or twice brought it down too low and it was stolen.
Agree totally. Try and destroy the goal everytime.
 

urmite

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Random question...
How do you finish work in Richmond at 5pm and still see the game in your seat at Barclays?
 
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CarolinaSpider

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Dji played pretty good, but I'm not sure it was the turnover that kept him out. I think it was probably how well we played the first 14 minutes of the 2nd half that kept him out. He is behind Nelson, Goose, and Roche, and I haven't seen anything that tells me that will change. If the main guys are clicking out there, you need to ride them. And next year, he will probably be behind Nelson, Smith, and Roche. And, that's okay. He can still be a key depth piece for us. I look at it like if Walz came in and gave us some good minutes, that doesn't mean he needs a lot more time. He is still behind guys, and when you get some minutes, you are expected to play well. Otherwise, you would never see the floor.
Yea but Waltz was fsssg lost while he was out there like a deer in head lights. CM pulled
him quickly and I knew he was done for the evening. He will be depth piece at some point
but not anytime soon.
 

spiderman

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Who ever saying the better players always play, I disagree and I think it’s been proven that isn’t the case with a couple of guys on this team.
when we say "best players play", we mean "best players should play". not that they always do. just saying don't play guys just to get them time. players have to earn time.
 
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spiderman

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You, like me, have always been a best guys play guy. Now, you want more minutes for guys?
I'm not handing out free minutes. Burton is great. he should get all he can handle. I think last night showed he can't handle 45. who can? he needed a blow, either to rest or get his head straight.
Quinn was laboring. not much option with Walz not looking ready. so we needed to go small a little longer.
as for Goose, he just hasn't earned status as a must play guy this year. if he was clearly better than Roche, or Dji, or Marcus then sure ... play him all day. but he hasn't been. he plays good defense. I love the effort level. but while his offensive stats have never been strong, they're down more this year. shooting is down and turnovers are up. and I like pressuring shots but come on. you can't foul 3 point shooters. that's twice.
 

URWilk110

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Went to the game, picked up this thread postgame on the pages where the endgame and overtime happened, am glad to see everyone recognizes the coaching disaster that befell the team tonight. Players again not given the chance to win the game, instead the 18-year-old issue of dribble the ball into the ground and run the Moonball "offense" - which doesn't work in the endgame - taking over. This time it was the Moon zone offense reverting back to the same as it was at the start of the game, tentative and passive. Identical scenario to WSU game where the team fed off its coach's demeanor and philosophy, and tried to just play the game the way the coach wants - micromanaged, no flow, an anything but a turnover mentality, instead of trying to actually making winning basketball plays. In other words, playing not to make mistakes rather than playing aggressively to win. Every possession in regulation endgame was Nelson with the ball until 10-12 seconds left in the clock, or him and Gustavson passing back and forth with no meaning or purpose until that point. It was an unmitigated disaster of coaching. When he called timeout with 17s left, the non-UR friends I was with asked if Burton would get an iso for the last shot. My reply was "He won't touch the ball." He didn't.

Glad he took some more timeouts home. Barclays timeouts are especially valuable.

For me the shine is off the ncaa win and we're back at square .550 again.

I support the players but not the coach. It's unfortunate. The NCAA run was a mirage that Jacob Gilyard pulled out of his hat with help from Matt Grace. But the coach is the issue and until he figures out how to coach the last 5m of games against teams who actually play defense, it's gonna be .550 over and over. We were the suckers for thinking otherwise with the sample size we have.
I feel like I could have written this exact post. I was sitting behind the bench and was screaming at Mooney during that timeout with 17 seconds left to give Tyler the ball. I bet the people I was sitting with that he would not touch the ball and unfortunately I was right.
 

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