Early Thoughts - Game 3

[brooklyn brownstone]

Nice game by Quinn, except at FT line.
Baffled by some rotations. Tyne made 1 awful play and was never seen again, classic Moon.
Where were the adjustments ince BC sloughed off a big guy into the lane to take away cutting lanes and amped up pressure on King? The BC coach even said as much in his halftime interview.
How could King get so few looks?
Much as some doubted it, lack of bulk at forward really hurt UR. It’s okay if the flipside is on offense we mismatch and hit 3s with those forwards in a 4-out, but none did save an early Noyes 3.

Was a very winnable game. First 12 minutes were very good, last 28 were fairly disastrous offensively.

Won’t go player by player in a loss as most everyone had ups and downs but some wider than others.

Got punched in the fave. Ran the offense. 14 point lead turned i to a double digit deficit. Ran the offense some more.

 

[spider23]

The Good:
Quinn: Came out of the gate and set the tone, making early shots, blocking shots, rebounding. Thought one of his better games in a Spider uniform.
Walz: I thought Walz played a really strong game. He did have one of those moments in which he had a bad turnover, and then just completely stopped on the pursuit. Which if I recall BC missed the layup and follow up - I think we ended up with the rebound (?) but anyway it was a bad look. But on the positive, he seemed to enjoy the challenge of playing against Post, 3 pointer looked smooth, and passing continues to impress.
Dji: Looked good to me. As Sdad mentioned in one thread, I would have liked him to be more involved earlier, and looked for his offense a little more earlier in the game. But overall, he looked like a guy that fits in playing against an ACC opponent, which makes sense considering he was initially comitted to Wake.
Dlo: thought he played well, but not a ton offensively. Liked his defense.
Needs improvement: For all the J King hype, and I do buy in - our fears were brought to surface. Looked good early, and then that guard for BC decided he would be alpha and just took him entirely out of his game, it was almost painful to watch at time. Jordan is a player and looking for big bounce back vs Colorado. We need him to be a Gonzo / Blair / KA type for us this season. Not as physical as those guys but he needs to do it.
Roche: As someone else pointed out, he took some very questionable shots. Catching it falling away and shooting going away from the basket. I get - that is his job - shooter - but he is trying to make up for his lack of minutes by shooting every single time he touches it. I'm afraid Mooney could lose him not managing him correctly.
Bigs: Foul trouble, and just seemed to be a step behind this game.
One thought:
Not sure how well they will fit in together, but Sdad mentioned on another thread - and I was having the same thought: Can we try Quinn and Walz together some? I feel like that Golden/Cayo high low combo that worked so well in the past could work some with these two. I mean I think would have tried it a few plays, whoever Post is guarding go high post, put the other low and dump it in. Mooney just too stuck in running the same stuff on O.
Back to good: Thought Noyes did well, would have liked to see more Noyes / Dji combo last night with those two being aggressive.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

don't agree on the Walz/Quinn combo, not something I really want to see. Walz got toasted on a closeout/blow-by by a 7 footer, (and then left him alone for an open 3 minutes later on a slower close out) so quicker forwards would give him fits IMO. And I don't know if he can run the offense in the big forward position as it entails lots of cutting, dribbling and movement from that spot (think of Bigs game in the offense.). Grace was a 5th year player with an okay handle in short bursts but I don't think Walz is the same. Cayo even had a back down game or as we saw vs Iowa, ability to dribble a couple times to drive to the rack. For me his night was up and down, same as previous games and what I'm expecting. He has actually looked somewhat better than I expected at this point but the turnovers all seem of the extremely bad variety - i.e. immediate buckets the other way or the like.

Generating good looks and then making shots was a recurring issue.. It always seems to be. When going got rough, the pace became a crawl. There is inherent opposition to wanting to take advantage of UR's strengths and speed up the game with pressing, and the nature of the Moonball offense when things are close.

Saw lots of UR shots getting blocked again - expect this will be a season-long thing.

 

[spider23]

Well, I am a Bigs fan, but I am not loving him at PF. Someone - may have been you Brooklyn, pointed out - if we are going to play smaller PF types, we need them to be able to make the other team pay by hitting 3s and beating them off the dribble. Not really happening.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

yes, that was me. There's not a single guy on the roster who fits that traditional mold of the big forward. Bigelow is skinny and lacks the bulk, same for Noyes. Though I thought Noyes should have gotten more minutes and Bigelow fewer as game went on, based on their respective play in game.

Harris is undersized as well and as our 10th man - we don't want him to have to get lots of minutes just because he's the only one with any modicum of bulk, when other guys are more skilled. Soulis may have an opportunity once healed but he's also extremely skinny and it's asking a lot to throw him into that role for the same reasons I don't want Walz in it.

yeah, just need to make other teams pay by draining 3s from the 4 guys in the forward rotation. It's going to be a season long thing. Gotta make shots, gotta free up guards/shooters from aggressive defenders, call timeouts rather than slowing the pace by running empty motion sets.

Honestly none of these issues are new.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

follow up to note that I don't see the UR forward rotation as a weakness, just feel like it has to be utilized in a way to run big forwards off the court and make other teams match up to us, rather than the other way around. Harris extended minutes last night were the result of the opposite - not exploiting bigger guys on the perimeter via shotmaking and faster pace, and having to go with (a little bit) more size.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I am in camp that Quinn / Walz together would not be successful on either end of the floor. I think the team is better off with less Walz - though I know that isn't going to happen because Quinn needs rest.

Bailey / Noyes together more, I agree completely. Different but complimentary skills.

In desperate offensive times (like last night) I wouldn't be opposed to playing Quinn, Noyes / Bailey / Roche together. Bigelow, Walz, Hunt and Harris are not the right choice when team needs outside shooting.

Also, Mooney, don't put Tyne in the "quick hook" and "bury on bench" program. Yes, he made a bad error last night, BUT, he shows potential to be effective - and soon. I think if you play him with more seasoned offensive players (take some of the scoring burden off his shoulders) his scoring efficiency will rise. He already executes other phases of the game pretty well for a freshman. Mooney currently using Tyne to rest King. In games like last night, I suspect he should use him more when he rests Hunt.

 

[spiderman]

Harris extended minutes last night were the result of the opposite - not exploiting bigger guys on the perimeter via shotmaking and faster pace, and having to go with (a little bit) more size.

? Harris only played 7 minutes. he's a good defender and an athlete. I'd actually like to see more of him.

offense & shooting was always going to be the concern with this team. we looked like a powerhouse against weak comp, but this is the game I wanted to see. how would we score against better athletes ... especially at guard?

well ... King and Hunt were contained. and Roche had to rush shots. that's a problem. and that problem isn't going away unless those 3 can score regularly against good athletes.

we played pretty well. our defense is solid. but we have to score more than 68 points.

Quinn was great. Walz was fine. Quinn is better. if Quinn can go 28, then Walz plays the other 12. he's doing a fine job as the backup 5. but my goodness ... don't play them together. neither is a forward.

I personally don't call the magic run stopping timeout unless there's something to change that I can't communicate during play or unless I need to make a substitution and can't get a stoppage. but I know many of you feel otherwise. I also would normally foul to extend the game (especially in the 1-and-1 range), but BC is shooting freaking 82% from the line this year so I understand thinking that fouling won't help and we should trap for steals/turnovers.

I want to win every game but we're going to lose a few, especially on the road. we still have some offensive concerns. we didn't answer them last night.

 

[Eight Legger]

It would just be nice one year to win 3 or 4 games we normally wouldn't expect to win. And by that I don't mean games that we "shouldn't" win -- I mean games like this one that good teams find a way to win. But the reality is that you can go through our schedule almost every single year and predict which ones are wins and which ones are losses. Most of us realized we would find a way to lose last night, and we did.

Next, we will lose to Colorado. If we get UNLV, we'll probably win, because they stink and because it's a neutral site. If we get FSU, we'll lose. We'll then lose at Wichita State, at UNI and against Florida. The final score in a couple of those games will be within 6-9 points, so we can claim a moral victory and talk about how hard we tried. We'll beat Queens and Lafayette at home but split against Charlotte and Buffalo in some form because we always lose a game at home we shouldn't.

I would do the A-10 schedule too but what's the point.

 

[SpiderTrap]

Just my thoughts on this game - Quinn did his typical approach first half. In first about 4-5 minutes - dominates, and scores I think 9-10 points right away. Then disappears for the rest of the first half.

I think Post from BC is someone Quinn should try to emulate. Big guy, plays down low. Catches ball on elbow and top of the key to make passes and keep offense running. But two big differences. 1) Post can and will shoot if you leave him alone. But usually only when he is stepping into his shot. 2) Post plays 38 of the 40 minutes.

Not saying Post had a better game at the end of the night. But why can Post play 38 in a game like this, and Quinn can't extend - when it was clear he was our only offensive option at times. And BC was daring Quinn to shoot. I applaud him for not taking the shots and actually using the space to get closer to the hoop, but it was quite evident of the BC game plan. Pressure our guards. Lay off Quin and let him battle Post 1 v 1. He might score a lot - but not enough to beat us.

 

[spiderman]

Quinn was the least of our problems.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Agree on Tyne - why bury him on the bad turnover? I know that is Moon's favorite thing for freshmen but Tyne is more of a true PG than Hunt, so when you need someone to get King more looks or open up shots for others, I'd like to see if he can be a guy to do that. Hunt is a combo guard who seems most comfortable either when wide open at 3 point line or driving. Good things can happen. from both, but I don't see him as a true facilitator.

sman - I'd say that 7 minutes is extended run for a guy who was previously not in the regular rotation. Without knowing anything, I'd venture a guess that Harris's inability to score is why he's the 10th man and not in the rotation. I don't think Harris played poorly and I did think he brought athleticism and a bit more size, but I don't think he's a scorer so utilizing him in a game where offensive issues were the primary concern - I don't think more minutes were needed. Moon gave it a try - that's fine, but it did not solve any scoring woes, and nor will it likely going forward.

Not singling him out here for criticism btw - again, I thought he played fine. We need a bit more than just fine to win games. To compete, just fine is...fine.

 

[Eight Legger]

Harris had a turnover down the stretch on offense at a critical time. Agree that he's not an offensive player and probably should not have been in there at that point.

 

[8legs1dream]

It would just be nice one year to win 3 or 4 games we normally wouldn't expect to win. And by that I don't mean games that we "shouldn't" win -- I mean games like this one that good teams find a way to win. But the reality is that you can go through our schedule almost every single year and predict which ones are wins and which ones are losses. Most of us realized we would find a way to lose last night, and we did.

Next, we will lose to Colorado. If we get UNLV, we'll probably win, because they stink and because it's a neutral site. If we get FSU, we'll lose. We'll then lose at Wichita State, at UNI and against Florida. The final score in a couple of those games will be within 6-9 points, so we can claim a moral victory and talk about how hard we tried. We'll beat Queens and Lafayette at home but split against Charlotte and Buffalo in some form because we always lose a game at home we shouldn't.

I would do the A-10 schedule too but what's the point.

we all knew those first two games were fool's gold we just didn't want to admit it 😒

 

[SpiderTrap]

Quinn was the least of our problems.

Quinn was not the problem. He played a good game. Kept us in the game really.

BUT - this is too early to tell. I think next 2 games will help with this - I see same issues we had last year in this game. And its just 1 sample, so I am hesitant to says its an issue now. Guard play is inconsistent. And Quinn gives us flashes of being all-league, then totally disappears. And last night - we got no support. Tough games for Roche, Bigelow, and tough shooting from deep overall- 25%.

Could just be one game - but historically - Mooney good teams have consistent and top level play from our big man and PG. That has always been his winning recipe.

 

[72Spider]

Quinn was not the problem. He played a good game. Kept us in the game really.

BUT - this is too early to tell. I think next 2 games will help with this - I see same issues we had last year in this game. And its just 1 sample, so I am hesitant to says its an issue now. Guard play is inconsistent. And Quinn gives us flashes of being all-league, then totally disappears. And last night - we got no support. Tough games for Roche, Bigelow, and tough shooting from deep overall- 25%.

Could just be one game - but historically - Mooney good teams have consistent and top level play from our big man and PG. That has always been his winning recipe.

Only criticism I had with Quinn was he took some poor mid range shots. At least one of those misses resulted in a 3 pointer at the other end for BC. But, he felt he needed to shoot because no one else was getting open, no movement.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Quinn played well, no real argument there.

But playing for almost exclusively 2 point attempts when the opponent is mixing 2s and 3s means that over the course of a game, you'll start to fall behind. Modern game demands you shoot and make 3s, even if your big guy is scoring at a 60% clip. Which brings me to the next point - lack of aggression to generate easy points/fts.

With maybe 6-7m left the announcers pointed out how few times UR had been to the FT line relative to their first 2 games. I believe UR was only 5-8 at that point with Quinn then making 1-2. And all 10 of those FTA were by Quinn and King, no one else made it to the line the first 35+ minutes of the game. There just has to be an emphasis on getting those easy points on nights where 3s aren't falling. Bigs/Dji/Roche all seem capable of doing it, but for whatever reason, it didn't happen last night.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

I actually think Quinn would make 2 out of 5 wide open, top of the key three pointers. If other teams are going to do what BC did and bury a guy in the post and not guard him, I think the team should just say "be selfish" and take those three pointers (but not long 2 pointers, to be clear).

Our offense really struggled when they started clogging the lane and stopping the efficacy of the backdoor cuts.

Jordan had an off day shooting, and I didn't like the settling for long twos. If you're going to settle, shoot a 3.

Need to empower Noyes to shoot more.

Generally liked the defense, but we got burned a few too many times with switches that resulted in a guy getting loose. Got to clean that up. But generally am liking the activity and the aggressiveness. Quinn and Walz do a pretty good job of rotating to baseline to cut off drives, and KIng and Hunt do really try to get through screens and stay with their guy.

Lastly, I would NOT do the Walz/Quinn lineup. It reduces our greatest attribute, which is athleticism and speed. And as others have noted, it really didn't look effective with Quinn and Grace last year.

 

[spiderman]

I actually think Quinn would make 2 out of 5 wide open, top of the key three pointers.

based on what? he's 2-12 at Richmond and 4-19 for his 5 year career. probably all wide open.

 

[SpiderGuy]

based on what? he's 2-12 at Richmond and 4-19 for his 5 year career. probably all wide open.

Agree. I suspect he keeps up attempts. If he starts to miss regularly he probably reverts to shorter and in paint shots. Confidence comes when shots drop.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

based on what? he's 2-12 at Richmond and 4-19 for his 5 year career. probably all wide open.

Based on literally nothing statistical - so I can't dispute your retort. But I am someone that believes that confidence plays an important part in shooting -- or at least, lack of confidence manifests itself in bad shooting. And I think if he had the confidence that the team and coaches want him to take those shots whenever he feels like it, and they are open, more would go in.

 

[spider23]

Yes, its interesting with Quinn. Last preseason we heard about him winning 3pt shooting contests. And the one he took looked pretty good, just long. To Kneepads point, and I agree quite a bit on the confidence angle he espouses, Walz looks confident shooting them - and they look good going in.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I am not asking Quinn to start shooting this year. Its clearly not something he can do right now, but that makes me wonder the recruitment of him and bringing him in. Our center - when successful, is always a capable shooter. Not great by any means, but someone you have to respect. Geriot, Harper, Golden, Cline, etc. The inability to shoot clogs up a lot of passing lanes for us - especially for our big man, who we rely on a lot at the high post. I am glad Quinn is here and think he is a good fit, but I would have thought this past offseason with him - shooting would have been a point of emphasis with him. Through 3 games - he is 0-1. I would have thought through 3 games - our center in this Mooney system would have attempted about 6-7 threes by now. Especially in BC where they were begging him to shoot. Even shoot foul line jumpers - they were letting him do it.

Just a possible hole other teams might try to exploit because our strength right now is our guard play, when it is on. So one way to counter that is limit their shots. And an easy way to do that - bait someone else into taking shots they are not used to or comfortable with.

 

[spiderman]

Neal has said he's worked a ton on his 3 point shooting every year including at Lafayette. he knows it's important and would help his pro dreams dramatically. but like golf and bowling and other muscle memory sports, some people can practice a million hours and never reach the consistency needed to be great.

of course if he could hit 40% of open 3's he'd take them. and I'm sure he's taken thousands of open 3's in practice. and I'm betting he's not hitting close to 40%. because if he did, he'd be taking them in games.

 

[SpiderTrap]

But if he simply can't shoot - as you say. Then why did we try to get him in the UR uniform? We should not be recruiting guys in HS or transfer portal that can't shoot around 30% from deep or show our coaches something that they can reach that mark through some extra practice, more shots, etc. Especially at the Center position. We were able to mask it a bit with Cayo because he rarely played in the High Post like our centers and basically they had him cutting, slashing to the hoop and going after offensive rebounds. So that player - assuming you have good players around him (Cayo had good players around him) you can hide. But we can't hide our center and inability to shoot. It limits our offensive potential and capabilty.

Does it hurts us every game. No. But it does limit us and puts more pressure on our guards.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Watching his FT form, I'm not comfortable with him taking 2 threes a game. The FT form - particularly the follow through - does not indicate shooter from any kind of distance, it's just not a good form, more of a flick than a classic shooting stroke. He's been a career 65% shooter from the line, passable but not indicative of any idea that he can expand that range.

 

[SpiderTrap]

Watching his FT form, I'm not comfortable with him taking 2 threes a game. The FT form - particularly the follow through - does not indicate shooter from any kind of distance, it's just not a good form, more of a flick than a classic shooting stroke. He's been a career 65% shooter from the line, passable but not indicative of any idea that he can expand that range.

Then did our coaches see this/know this and think - we don't need a big man who can shoot to run this offense?

I am not sure either if he can or can't shoot - I have not tried to dissect his shooting stroke and history. But I would think our coaching staff would have done so, right? I think everything about him fits our system - with the one glaring exception - he can't shoot. If he is not in the paint or within 10 feet in general - its a low percentage shot for him.

 

[GKiller]

I agree Quinn form does not breed confidence in his 3 ball. But I think he can hit the foul line J when they make no attempt to guard like BC strategy. Both Walz & Quinn need to take even to give D something to think about. Just the threat can affect sometimes. Now we have to hit some…not expecting 65% on jumpers like FTs but think 50 is doable u take that & absolutely forces change. And Walz surprisingly has shown nice form. Need to see more to be certain.

 

[spiderman]

But if he simply can't shoot - as you say. Then why did we try to get him in the UR uniform?

? because we needed a big and he's been really good?
he's a 7 footer with terrific passing skills and solid low post moves.
if he's also a good 3 point shooter and could jump out of the gym, he wouldn't be at Richmond. wouldn't still be in college either.

 

[spider23]

Hey now, no one said anything about jump out the gym. But I think you are wrong. Many bigs don't get drafted now. So if they have the chance to make some bucks in NIL - they do. No. 1 case in point Hunter Dickinson.

 

[spiderman]

Hey now, no one said anything about jump out the gym. But I think you are wrong. Many bigs don't get drafted now. So if they have the chance to make some bucks in NIL - they do. No. 1 case in point Hunter Dickinson.

sure. but Hunter Dickinson isn't coming to UR either.