Burton going through draft process again, no decision on returning to UR
- Thread starter SFspidur
- Start date
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
oh geez. can't say I blame him but next season is gonna be U-G-L-Y
Greatest post of all time on this board. I nominate you as our new leader. You had me at "ship of fools." 🤣
It feels like we don't even have enough eggs to anticipate any hatching.
Bring in impact freshmen like Tyler every year and play them for 2-3 years. No more redshirts, no more 2-3 year developments, and alter the systems so anyone can step in and run them immediately. Mix of freshmen through juniors with the thought that any stars might jump a level for 1-2 years late.
No can do, some might say? Well, as you pointed out, Tyler was only #30 in New England. Find guys, coach them way the hell up.
I don’t often agree with some of Trap’s posts but here I do. Adapt. Things have shifted quickly, so must UR.
Also, Ferrum wins today. Fire Hardt into the sun. Best turn of phrase here in forever.
???
as good as Tyler currently is, he averaged 4.6 ppg as a freshman.
yes, more opportunity would lead to more production. but plugging in a freshman as a replacement for a star who moved on isn't going to get the results you want.
and of course, it's not like every freshman we land turns out like Tyler either.
U of R is not going to lower its academic standards to VCUs, which basically doesn't have any. This will always be a major disadvantage we have compared to our crosstown rival.
Tyler entering the transfer portal is devastating for the program, because it shows how much NIL has changed college basketball. U of R will have a NIL fund, but I just don't see how we can compete with larger schools. Very few non P6 school going forward will be able to make it to the NCAAs without winning their conference going forward. Those school that do make it will typically get slaughter in the 1st round. None of this good for our conference or basketball program.
I think this is a slight rush to judgement. Tyler attended UR for four years and graduated. This is is all about a “provisional” Covid year that is an anomaly that will likely be never seen again. There is one more year left of this Covid year “deal”, so let’s get back to normal four year eligibility and see what happens. I do agree that it will be harder for the mid-majors to keep star players, but I think this has everything to do with the “no sit” policy and much less to do with NIL. There might be “big money” for the best college talent, but the likelihood of many such players being at a mid-major schools is a pipe dream. What is more likely to happen is a lower rated recruit proves themselves and wants to play at a higher level, no money required. There will still be room for senior experienced balanced teams to make runs at the mid-major level. What you won’t see is a mid-major led by an elite player (ie Steph Curry at Davidson), such players will be much more likely to transfer.
I wish you were right, but I disagree. Any good player regardless of what year they are in school is going to be looking for a pay day. This changes everything for mid-majors. We are going to have to take a step back at some point in the future and decide, based on the change in environment, what sport U of R should focus on that will benefit the University the most. Hopefully it will be basketball.
Dayton is a mid major and I heard that if Holmes goes back he has a $1 mil, NIL deal waiting for him. If Burton really wanted to come back wouldn't PQ be lining his pockets, unless he already offered and he decided he wanted to leave anyway?
In Burton's case I think it is more about wanting to play for a team in a big time conference that has a chance at the NCAA tournament next year. Road trips to Duquesne, GW and LaSalle probably just weren't doing it for him anymore.
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We just lost the only rooster we had. Nothing will be hatching next season.
I guess Mooney is OK with it. He just picked up Osaka. A coach has gotta eat I guess.
Can you post the VCU academic standards you referred to? It would be an interesting read.
You should be able to figure it out yourself if you are a U of R grad. To get an estimate you start with test scores, where 25% of VCU students have ACTs below 21. You then subtract out at least 3 to 5 points for basketball players and possibly more since they are a large school. That brings you to such a low level that I don't see many high school basketball players that graduated and don't have felonies being turned away.
By comparison 25% of Richmond's Graduates have an ACT below 30.
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I am a UR grad and also smart enough not to rely upon some poster’s estimates or assumptions. I’d prefer you post something that actually and factually backs up your prior statement as opposed to conjecture. I get the willingness to attempt to justify easier recruiting at VCU, but at least post something that factually supports that premise.
Here we go with the whole "woe are we" stuff again. This is really not complicated: Either we play by the same standards as everyone else in our current conference, or we move to a conference where we can do that. The end. Failure to do one of those two things is malpractice.
This will be a Chelsea Clinton year for sure.
You post per 36 stats all the time. His freshmen stats would be like 11 and 7 for his freshman per 36. I’ll take that freshman and play him 30 minutes and get 10 and 6 all day. Mix with those sophs and juniors and some portal juniors:seniors. If we have the luxury of playing a freshman like Tyler 14m a game in the future it’s obviously a good thing.
Cannot miss like the recruiting has the past few years where we have like 3 guys on the roster after 3 years and guys like Dread and the big who transferred never saw the court and the last two undersized PGs (Mooney’s supposed specialty) start most of a season and immediately transfer.
Gotta adapt.
Then it sounds like UR needs to stop wasting so much money on improving the b-ball team since little chance it can happen. I guess we could be competitive if we had an exceptional head coach though everyone knows that is not the case. Why continue to pay a coach 1.3m, whatever the figure, just get someone for 500K or so? And just go back to the CAA or some other lower level league because VCU isn't the only team having an advantage.
It seems pretty silly to employ a “system” guy that needs years to implement his system in this version of college basketball. UR won’t adapt to the modern game and we’ll be sitting here in year 25 of Mooney’s contract wondering why we’re not seeing success.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
it hardly worked in the previous era of college basketball it sure as hell won't work in the next one
Correct. The real difference between VCU basketball and Richmond basketball is that VCU wants to win. They value winning and UR doesn't. Talk about academics, admissions, or NIL all you want. The bottom line is UR is happy with mediocre state of the program and isn't all in when it comes to winning. That's why Mooney is still the coach. It's also why it's easy to not care that much about Spider Athletics anymore. UR doesn't want to win! They want to "compete." Pathetic but true.
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Sheesh. It's not a disadvantage, it's an advantage. For every kid that has mediocre high school grades, there's another one that is both really good at basketball and looking for a better quality academic school. I know his parent(s) are.
This view is endemic of the problem. I don't know if your position reflects that of Mooney and the coaching staff, but it does seem to be in line with Queally, and possibly Hardt, as far as expectation setting. I think it is loser talk.
Loser talk for sure. From a school that has every reason not to talk or think that way... And that doesn't in any other area. It's insanity.
we're not regularly strong as things stood. and that's before losing upperclass Tyler Burtons to the portal and replacing them with freshman year Tyler Burtons. upperclass Tyler is a better basketball player.
this problem will be for everyone who can't raise enough NIL money.
the Holmes NIL offer if accurate is incredible, and that's a team in our conference. I don't know who's contributing at UR or how much. no way we can compete with that though.
but forget the Holmes range. I think every recruit in the portal and in high school is looking for money now. the advantage of a beautiful campus and a great degree is gone without matching NIL deals.
High school kids have NILs now. They aren't going to take a pay cut to go to just any college.
It's a new world out there.
yeah, I agree, but I think we just have to adapt, be better and stronger in recruiting HS guys now.
Moon has rarely recruited a stud at a position where he already has a stud only a year above. The recruiting cycle always seems to be recruit one class of great guys, the next year adds a guy or two, then the next 2 classes are guys who fit best as role players. It's never Tyler Burton is recruited a year after Tyler Burton arrives on campus, a scenario which would mitigate the loss of a guy like Burton. I think we are hopeful the portal was going to be an asset for UR for immediate replacements, and it still may! I'm hopeful on this year's portal guys, but they're both small guards. but if - like this year's trend suggests - that NIL will factor much greater and we'll lose as much as we gain in future years, then Moon has to adapt, and fast. Starting with a stronger approach to how to recruit HS guys is a first step.
I think he has to come to the modern game of recruiting and player movement, has to recruit and implement impact freshmen, then figure out how to do that each year, not every 3 or 4 years because we may well lose them after 2-3 years. I'm hopeful we keep them, but it's an unknown changing landscape so I think Moon has to adapt and assume that until we have established ourselves in this new hierarchy that guys will leave for opportunity/exposure/money that may not be available at UR. Development processes are useless at this moment in time, unless you like developing guys for 3 years only to see them transfer elswhere. I hate that. I'd rather play guys from the outset. Moon's sparing use of freshmen has to alter.
in hindsight, the ANO transfer was the first instance of this type of thing, but I think it's in full swing now and no longer an outlier, but was a harbinger of things to come.
Jeff Butler did OK. So did Michael Perry.
And yes, he had very bad some misses.
UR was easier to get into back in my era. Not so sure the academic courseload was any easier, however.
Ferrum,
This is one of the best posts, I've read in a while. You have hit the nail on the head regarding all of the main characters that run our athletic department.
Queally wants his name on buildings, his fingers on the controls, Hardt is coasting towards retirement, Mooney has a fat contract with no expectations. The 3 of them together seems like 3 high school BFF's who like to go out and drink beers together and laugh over their collective largess, not the 3 top of leaders of a D-1 program, figuring out what we need to do to be the most competitive athletic program we can be.
I have wondered for a long time what it must feel like to work over at the Robins Center for an employee who really has passion for their job and wants our athletic programs and athletes to succeed. That has to be a lonely place to be.
Triumvirate rules. Don't get me started on a holiday weekend 😆😆😆 . Following the likes of SDSU and VCU, these types of programs are all in. We are in constant excuse making mode.
John Brown? The guy who got arrested before the Maryland game, but still played, Tony Marshall or something like that? I know Paul Webb left. Larry Slappy stayed.
Butler and Craig Sullivan lived together, I think, they were good dudes.
There was a freshman that year named Morton who could have been good but he transferred. Same with another guy, Kenny Heifner? The mind plays tricks on me after all the years and I'm too lazy to dig out my yearbook.
John Caulfield played in 74 or 75, his father was involved in Watergate somehow. Then he played intramurals for the Duke Street Kings or somebody and was great. There was a woman at Westhampton, Lisa Butterfield (?), her father Alexander was involved in Watergate too and may have been the guy who revealed there was a taping machine in the Oval Office.
This is correct. He was the guy who revealed the existence of Oval Office taping.
Lisa was the girlfriend of one of my frat brothers. Knew her well.
