Buckingham dismissed from UR Basketball

[plydogg]

From Louisville?

From Southern California. The first college athletics game I ever watched (on tv) was a Louisville game vs. I think Rutgers when in football when I was about 6 years old and very impressionable and they won in a blowout and I decided I was a Louisville fan. Neither of my parents were into college sports or had alma maters to support so we all just kind of went with it.

Was really cool a few years ago when we hosted Minnesota to meet Richard Pitino. Sure, I heckled him all game from the front row of the student section but was still cool nonetheless

 

[UFA 2006]

Losing Buck is a terrible blow for the program. It boggles the mind that some posters view it otherwise.

Good luck DMB wherever you may land. I will forever appreciate your hustle, your grit, and your passion. Maybe you weren't the prototypical UR student athlete, and our failure to appreciate that fact is our collective loss.

 

[Ferrum Spider]

If Lefty got canned because his players were using drugs, then why can't Mooney be sacked for the same reason? Coaches bear some responsibility for what their players do off the court.

To be fair no players have died under Mooney. Len Bias didn’t overdose on the weed.

 

[VT4700]

Mooney got lucky with some great players and took us to back to back ncaa tourneys and a sweet 16 during that time. People forget though that he still wasn't a great coach even then and alsr screwed it up.

Your agenda is way too obvious. Not only do you refuse to give Mooney any credit for the back to back tourney years, but you take it a step farther by saying he screwed those years up? How is anyone supposed to take you seriously and have normal debates with you when you say things like that?

And how exactly do you get lucky with great players? Didn't Mooney recruit them? Isn't that the whole idea? Recruit good players and get the most out of them? And, haven't you been on here non stop getting on Mooney because he doesn't have enough great players? Sure does seem you will criticize regardless.

KA and Harp were great, but let's not act like they were 1st team All Americans and future NBA stars who would have taken us farther than the sweet 16 had Mooney not "screwed it up", as you so foolishly said. This post by you clearly shows your agenda and I can see why the ignore feature is so popular on here.

 

[plydogg]

The posters on this board who think this "is all on Buck" are the same self-righteous hypocrites who are addicted to vodka or who are 60 pounds overweight because they can't stop eating pizza and cheesy fries.

Losing Buck is a terrible blow for the program. It boggles the mind that some posters view it otherwise.

Good luck DMB wherever you may land. I will forever appreciate your hustle, your grit, and your passion. Maybe you weren't the prototypical UR student athlete, and our failure to appreciate that fact is our collective loss.

So it is whose fault then that he didn't have the self restraint to not violate team rules? If I was addicted to vodka or 60 pounds overweight (apparently I can be proud to say I'm neither?) I wouldn't blame it on others, nobody is putting the Grey Goose in my mouth or stuffing the fries in my mouth.

It is a terrible blow for the program. But it is his fault that he was dismissed from the program.

 

[VT4700]

It sounds like some are (the other VT, ulla, and pllydog). Those kind of fans are hurting our program.

So, the 3 of us along with over 7,000+ other fans who support our program, help sell out games, and cheer on our players while providing positive energy for recruits to see are hurting our program, while the 10 haters on here are making it better? Okay.

 

[spider23]

Go Flying Squirrels!!!YAYYYY!

 

[coachfezz]

Maybe Paul comes back now

 

[I-M-UR]

And do have faith in CM making that turn around or r u suggesting a change in coaching as the quick turnaround.

I think he should have been gone but that is not going to happen; so if next season isn't a complete reversal from this season and CM stays, I need to reconsider a decades long support, donations, tickets, etc.

 

[SpiderPride]

I have never said anything worse than anyone else on here yet I always get suspended. I think some of the pro Mooney crowd knows that my message is true and are afraid of that deep down. Everyone on this board knows I'm right but few want to admit it. They suspend me because they think I'm spreading a bad message even though I have been right all along.

Maybe it's your arrogance and condescending, caustic tone. Just something to think about .

 

[MooreHall73]

Sometimes in life things just run their course and there is a need for a change. It appears we are at that point with our basketball program. However, when the coach's buy out is 75-80% of the annual budget it can't happen without other things suffering that will also have long term damage as well. This is a damned if you and damned if you don't position. I believe it will play out in time but it seems to be moving painfully slowly.
I am torn between supporting this team also next year. I have not made that decision for myself yet. However, my decision is not based on the administration getting the message. If they don't yet understand this then two less season tickets will not make a difference. I have to think this is about the cost of the buy-out. Men's basketball is supposed to be our flagship program. I think that is why we hired an athletic director that is basketball-centric. If people are actually asleep at the switch on this program then we are lost in all our athletic programs. My decision on what to do going forward will be based on what I believe will be in the best long-term interest of the program and the school I have rooted for since 1973.
In the short term I hope to enjoy the football season. Here to beating JMU!

 

[WebSpinner]

this may have been clarified somewhere above and just missed it, sorry if the case, but, what is the difference between a team rule and an athletic dept rule? seems they would be pretty much the same, show up on time to practices, team trips, do your academic work, don't cheat, don't do drugs, don't assault other students, etc, etc. just seems that if drugs that would have been a team deal not an AD deal. way too much speculation and not enough facts here but would like to know when the AD steps in over a coach and the team rules.

 

[fan2011]

this may have been clarified somewhere above and just missed it, sorry if the case, but, what is the difference between a team rule and an athletic dept rule? seems they would be pretty much the same, show up on time to practices, team trips, do your academic work, don't cheat, don't do drugs, don't assault other students, etc, etc. just seems that if drugs that would have been a team deal not an AD deal. way too much speculation and not enough facts here but would like to know when the AD steps in over a coach and the team rules.

Athletic department rules likely apply to all student athletes. Team rules are specific to individual teams, I don't see why drug related offenses would be team rules and not AD rules.

 

[I-M-UR]

Sometimes in life things just run their course and there is a need for a change. It appears we are at that point with our basketball program. However, when the coach's buy out is 75-80% of the annual budget it can't happen without other things suffering that will also have long term damage as well. This is a damned if you and damned if you don't position. I believe it will play out in time but it seems to be moving painfully slowly.
I am torn between supporting this team also next year. I have not made that decision for myself yet. However, my decision is not based on the administration getting the message. If they don't yet understand this then two less season tickets will not make a difference. I have to think this is about the cost of the buy-out. Men's basketball is supposed to be our flagship program. I think that is why we hired an athletic director that is basketball-centric. If people are actually asleep at the switch on this program then we are lost in all our athletic programs. My decision on what to do going forward will be based on what I believe will be in the best long-term interest of the program and the school I have rooted for since 1973.
In the short term I hope to enjoy the football season. Here to beating JMU!

Does anyone really know what amount the 'buy out' actually is. If Miller signed a 10 year contract where the buyout is the full contract for the full 10 years, with no performance conditions then Miller was a fool.

 

[Eight Legger]

Based on what I have been told, there is about a 95% chance the original contract was fully guaranteed with no reduced buyout. But the one-year extension last year supposedly came with a reduction to the buyout. And from what I have read about similar extensions for other coaches, the buyout typically is reduced by something close to the amount of the extension. In that case, it would be as if he were still under the original 10-year contract and not an 11-year contract, and we would owe him three more years.

The remaining money due would not be paid in a lump sum but rather amortized in the same manner it has been paid to date, year by year. And most likely it would be reduced by whatever income Mooney were to make from another job during those three years.

If all of this is accurate, it would mean we owe him about $3.5 million over 3 years (at most) but likely would be able to write off $500,000-$1 million of that based on what job he took next.

 

[SFspidur]

Ok, Nick's highlights have been posted...do we start the clock on him now?

 

[Spider2020]

this may have been clarified somewhere above and just missed it, sorry if the case, but, what is the difference between a team rule and an athletic dept rule? seems they would be pretty much the same, show up on time to practices, team trips, do your academic work, don't cheat, don't do drugs, don't assault other students, etc, etc. just seems that if drugs that would have been a team deal not an AD deal. way too much speculation and not enough facts here but would like to know when the AD steps in over a coach and the team rules.

Miller said on the radio yesterday team rules are things like come to practice on time, don’t skip weight lifting, don’t be out after curfew, etc. He said athletic department policies are drug policies, title IX policies, etc.

 

[spider23]

I think Miller's interview was terrible. Why did he jump right into the drug testing thing, and not mention any other scenario. Seems like a hit job ordered by Hardt and Mooney. And Miller has a vested interest in CYA regarding Mooney. Still feel this thing smells rotten.

 

[mcspider]

The obvious answer is that team rules are set in addition to the already in place athletic department rules. These are naturally set by the coaches of their own teams.

 

[I-M-UR]

Based on what I have been told, there is about a 95% chance the original contract was fully guaranteed with no reduced buyout. But the one-year extension last year supposedly came with a reduction to the buyout. And from what I have read about similar extensions for other coaches, the buyout typically is reduced by something close to the amount of the extension. In that case, it would be as if he were still under the original 10-year contract and not an 11-year contract, and we would owe him three more years.

The remaining money due would not be paid in a lump sum but rather amortized in the same manner it has been paid to date, year by year. And most likely it would be reduced by whatever income Mooney were to make from another job during those three years.

If all of this is accurate, it would mean we owe him about $3.5 million over 3 years (at most) but likely would be able to write off $500,000-$1 million of that based on what job he took next.

No performance requirements? If this is accurate, my opinion of Miller has come 180 degrees, why would he sign something like that especially after seeing the catastrophes at UVA. And we don't have the kind of money those schools have to get out of this mess.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I think Miller's interview was terrible. Why did he jump right into the drug testing thing, and not mention any other scenario. Seems like a hit job ordered by Hardt and Mooney. And Miller has a vested interest in CYA regarding Mooney. Still feel this thing smells rotten.

There is no question that Miller has a vested interest in Mooney. I am not convinced of any conspiracy, I think that they are low skill and haven't done a good job managing many facets of the program.

 

[Eight Legger]

No performance requirements? If this is accurate, my opinion of Miller has come 180 degrees, why would he sign something like that especially after seeing the catastrophes at UVA. And we don't have the kind of money those schools have to get out of this mess.

My understanding is no. Coaches in those situations have all the leverage. If you want to keep a hot coach, you give him everything he wants and hope for the best. Didn't exactly work out for us in this case.

 

[keefusb]

The remaining money due would not be paid in a lump sum but rather amortized in the same manner it has been paid to date, year by year. And most likely it would be reduced by whatever income Mooney were to make from another job during those three years.

If all of this is accurate, it would mean we owe him about $3.5 million over 3 years (at most) but likely would be able to write off $500,000-$1 million of that based on what job he took next.

Johnny Dawkins is being sued by Stanford because when he was hired by UCF, his agent had Dawkins UCF salary reduced/deferred for 2 or 3 years so Stanford would not benefit from the reduction of his payments owed by Stanford. Seems to me that CM has a very shrewd agent (based on his current pay and situation), and we should be very careful if (when IMHO) we end up sacking him and having to pay out.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

Your agenda is way too obvious. Not only do you refuse to give Mooney any credit for the back to back tourney years, but you take it a step farther by saying he screwed those years up? How is anyone supposed to take you seriously and have normal debates with you when you say things like that?

And how exactly do you get lucky with great players? Didn't Mooney recruit them? Isn't that the whole idea? Recruit good players and get the most out of them? And, haven't you been on here non stop getting on Mooney because he doesn't have enough great players? Sure does seem you will criticize regardless.

KA and Harp were great, but let's not act like they were 1st team All Americans and future NBA stars who would have taken us farther than the sweet 16 had Mooney not "screwed it up", as you so foolishly said. This post by you clearly shows your agenda and I can see why the ignore feature is so popular on here.

Yes, VT_Spider is gruff with his delivery, but your assertion regarding his statement that Mooney was a bungling coach when Anderson was here is not accurate. Though I was not on this board during the Anderson years, I and others that I know were discussing the same coaching mistakes by Mooney during that time period. His player management issues, substitutions, time out habits, strategy deficiencies, inflexibility (and on & on) were on full display even then.

The difference is that during the Anderson era, Mooney was fortunate to have a couple of exceptional players (and enough other good players) that his fatal coaching flaws were overcome by the team. It is not that the flaws weren't present, because they were. A deeper and more balanced team helped to minimize Mooney's mistakes, therefore the outcome was a little different. The problem with his coaching ability has not changed.

 

[Eight Legger]

That's a pretty interesting deal with Dawkins. Really trying to stick it to Stanford, and I bet he gets away with it unless there was something specifically in his contract there about such a scenario. Seems like every contract should be written to deduct the average annual salary of the new contract from any amount due, rather than the amounts paid during the overlap years. You'd think Stanford attorneys would be smart enough to include that kind of language!

 

[ur2K]

I still blame Brian Gregory for all of this.

 

[keefusb]

You'd think Stanford attorneys would be smart enough to include that kind of language!

Willing to bet the Richmond lawyers didn't include that kind of language in CM's contract. What Dawkins and his agent did is clearly not operating in good faith, I believe that was the basis of the lawsuit.

 

[Stonewall D]

In all honesty, I do not see how Coach Mooney survives this.

 

[VT4700]

I think Miller's interview was terrible. Why did he jump right into the drug testing thing, and not mention any other scenario. Seems like a hit job ordered by Hardt and Mooney. And Miller has a vested interest in CYA regarding Mooney. Still feel this thing smells rotten.

And now we get to hear another conspiracy theory. This one involving Miller, Hardt, and Mooney? Laughable.

 

[Wood Hall]

And now we get to hear another conspiracy theory. This one involving Miller, Hardt, and Mooney? Laughable.

Well, they all have been seen on the 6th floor of Boatwright Library, and on the grassy knoll overlooking Westhampton Lake.

 

[keefusb]

In all honesty, I do not see how Coach Mooney survives this.

CM will survive because PQ is in his back pocket, and by extension Hardt will not upset the status quo.

 

[Captain Anderson]

In all honesty, I do not see how Coach Mooney survives this.

Survives as in he gets fired next year? Or survives as in we let him coach out his contract and then decide to "move in another direction" while thanking Mooney for his years of great coaching and service. I don't see us firing him short of another 10 win type season next year. We will continue to hope and look forward to the promise of the next year. We are so worried about what would happen if we fired Mooney (short term players leaving, etc) but we could have hired a coach several years ago and been back in the conference title and NCAA mix.

 

[VT4700]

Yes, VT_Spider is gruff with his delivery, but your assertion regarding his statement that Mooney was a bungling coach even when Anderson was here is not accurate. Though I was not on this board during the Anderson years, I and others that I know were discussing the same coaching mistakes by Mooney during that time period. His player management issues, substitutions, time out habits, strategy deficiencies, inflexibility (and on & on) were on full display even then.

The difference is that during the Anderson era, Mooney was fortunate to have a couple of exceptional players (and enough other good players) that his fatal coaching flaws were overcome by the team. It is not that the flaws weren't present, because they were. A deeper and more balanced team helped to minimize Mooney's mistakes, therefore the outcome was a little different. The problem with his coaching ability has not changed.

Just because you and a few other negative Mooney haters felt he was a bad coach during our tourney runs does not make it true. All you are doing with this post is proving that conference titles and sweet 16s will not make you happy, and you will be miserable with our coach regardless of the results.

We went 13-3 in the A-10 those 2 seasons, and won 26 and 29 games with an A-10 title and a sweet 16. And that was when the A-10 was a lot better than it is now. Nothing lucky about that.

And how convenient of haters to say it is because we had so much talent. Give me a break. What good coach hasn't had some talented players help them win games? Isn't that every coaches goal? So, I guess when other coaches win with talent, it is because they coached them up, but when Mooney wins with talent, it is because this talent bailed him out? Unreal.

I loved our teams then, but even if you want to give all the credit to the players, it is not like we were rolling out a bunch of future NBA guys that were so much more talented than nearly every other team we played.

 

[spider23]

CM will survive because PQ is in his back pocket, and by extension Hardt will not upset the status quo.

This is my fear as well. This is Moon's trump card.

 

[Eight Legger]

We are so worried about what would happen if we fired Mooney (short term players leaving, etc) but we could have hired a coach several years ago and been back in the conference title and NCAA mix.

That's the irony, isn't it... We worry about players leaving if we hire a new coach, but players are leaving because of THIS coach AND we're not winning. Craziness.

 

[Captain Anderson]

Just because you and a few other negative Mooney haters felt he was a bad coach during our tourney runs does not make it true. All you are doing with this post is proving that conference titles and sweet 16s will not make you happy, and you will be miserable with our coach regardless of the results.

We went 13-3 in the A-10 those 2 seasons, and won 26 and 29 games with an A-10 title and a sweet 16. And that was when the A-10 was a lot better than it is now. Nothing lucky about that.

And how convenient of haters to say it is because we had so much talent. Give me a break. What good coach hasn't had some talented players help them win games? Isn't that every coaches goal? So, I guess when other coaches win with talent, it is because they coached them up, but when Mooney wins with talent, it is because this talent bailed him out? Unreal.

I loved our teams then, but even if you want to give all the credit to the players, it is not like we were rolling out a bunch of future NBA guys that were so much more talented than nearly every other team we played.

How many coaches have gone on 7 year NCAA droughts and then recovered to become top coaches in their respective leagues again? First off not many coaches in high level basketball are allowed to go on 7 year droughts...they are relieved of their duties. It would be one thing if Mooney has made adjustments over the past few years like adding some top notch recruiters to his staff or changed his coaching style significantly. We have enough data over the last 7 years to know what we have as a Coach. Yet we continue to hope and pray that the program will break thru "next year". I don't know why it's such a crime to demand a coaching change at this point. Everyone agrees that Mooney is a fine man and had some success but his track record lately speaks for itself. You aren't a bad fan just because you realize this and want to see our program excel. Mooney will be fine, he has been given plenty of opportunities and been compensated more than handsomely. Why are we so afraid to make a change?

 

[regatw]

I think Miller's interview was terrible. Why did he jump right into the drug testing thing, and not mention any other scenario. Seems like a hit job ordered by Hardt and Mooney. And Miller has a vested interest in CYA regarding Mooney. Still feel this thing smells rotten.

Agree that was really irresponsible. Of course most people will assume that’s what happened.

I will say that his girlfriend and grandmother were very offended when someone suggested in a comment that drug use was the reason. She specifically called the guy out on making such a serious allegation as “smoking pot”.

Of course, friends and family are gonna have a strong bias; but to be that passionate about that claim (when the truth is out there somewhere) seemed telling to me.

The girlfriend did admit that HE’d made a mistake and hopes that he will learn from it.

 

[regatw]

 

[SpiderGuy]

In all honesty, I do not see how Coach Mooney survives this.

My bet is on CM surviving this, and we don't make the NCAA Tourney for the rest of his contract.

 

[SpiderTrap]

You have to give credit to Mooney for the 2 NCAA tourney runs. How much credit is another story. I always worried about the ability to develop players following those runs because if you look at those back to back NCAA teams - they were built on guys like Gonzo, Geriot, Anderson, Butler, Harper - guys who played together a lot of minutes since their frosh and soph years, and guys who had no one behind them so they had to play a lot of minutes - even in those frosh years when we were not very good or the cupboard was bare. But following those runs - 2 things needed to happen.
1) Improved recruiting - you would think following a sweet 16 run AND having the A10 POY (Anderson) AND having a guy get drafted in the first round of the NBA draft (Harper) that you could increase your recruiting. These are all very impressive things to tell a recruit - but fact of the matter, this did not really happen.
2) Develop players off the bench - All mid-majors like UR will go through ups and downs where they have a strong class graduate and the following year you have holes to fill. 2 ways to fill them - incoming frosh (see point 1 - hopefully recruiting has gotten better and you can rely more on these guys from day 1) and you have to be able to develop that kid who has been sitting or playing limited minutes his first 2 years and make him productive when its his time to step into the lineup. I don't think Mooney does a good job at this. His best players - Anderson, Geriot, Harper, Anthony, even Cline after his transfer were all guys who played a lot of minutes right away. So hard to say how much coaching had to do with developing these guys and how much was figuring it out on their own from playing 25+ minutes a night for 3-4 years straight.

The key to staying on top and being competitive is being able to reload. Which you can do with Frosh if your UK or Duke. But at the mid-major level - its usually mixing 1-2 frosh a year, with your returning players, including guys who have not played much - but you have developed in practice.