Buckingham dismissed from UR Basketball
- Thread starter MDspider8
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I'm disappointed in Buck but something about this whole situation is not adding up either. Unless that is clarified, Buck is a player who was our heart and soul and gave 110% all of the time.
What about Khwan, Paul, and Solly? They all left early as well for their own reasons, none of which seem to reflect on the coach or the overall state of the program in your eyes. If it was just Buck than you can look at this in isolation but it is about 1/3 of the team that has now bailed this year.
The timing of it all just seems odd. In a week or soBuck asks for his release, we tweet out his highlight video, he gets kicked out of the program. Its all just freaking weird. Why not just give him his release and make a clean break instead of making the kid look bad and possibly harming the chance you ever get a top RVA player again?
This whole thing smells rotten.
So to recap:
Finished 12-20 b/c we were "young" in the 13th year of a coach's tenure
Had 4 players leave the program with eligibility remaining
We're sitting on 3 open spots moving into May
How is Coach Mooney still employed?
This whole thing smells rotten.
So to recap:
Finished 12-20 b/c we were "young" in the 13th year of a coach's tenure
Had 4 players leave the program with eligibility remaining
We're sitting on 3 open spots moving into May
How is Coach Mooney still employed?
We don't know the time line, what appeals had to be completed, who else had to be notified before going public, and on and on. The 'whispers' are really kind of believable, for example; say I'm an employee who knows he messed up and know I'm about to be fired, so for my own self esteem I tell people 'I hate this job', or 'I hate my boss' so I'm leaving....
For me none of this matters in the long run... a quick, dramatic program turn around is what is required.
And we really lost 3 starters. Mooney seemed all in on Solly, and he was starting at the beginning of the year.
Read it and weep (like literally cry at what the program has become)
"the Spiders have lost nine scholarship players with eligibility remaining since the conclusion of the 2014-15 season.
Those nine break down this way: one dismissed (Buckingham), two graduate transfers (guard Khwan Fore, forward Alonzo Nelson-Ododa), one who quit (forward Solly Stansbury), one graduating who will skip his final season of eligibility (forward Paul Friendshuh), and four who transferred from UR (guard Jesse Pistokache, guard Kadeem Smithen, forward KoVien Dominaus, forward Chandler Diekvoss)."
"the Spiders have lost nine scholarship players with eligibility remaining since the conclusion of the 2014-15 season.
Those nine break down this way: one dismissed (Buckingham), two graduate transfers (guard Khwan Fore, forward Alonzo Nelson-Ododa), one who quit (forward Solly Stansbury), one graduating who will skip his final season of eligibility (forward Paul Friendshuh), and four who transferred from UR (guard Jesse Pistokache, guard Kadeem Smithen, forward KoVien Dominaus, forward Chandler Diekvoss)."
Points to a huge breakdown in what the players expect when recruited and what the reality is after recruitment. Who is going to fix that?
Nancy Lieberman
Kwan is the most perplexing to me. That stings the most. His leaving lands squarely at Mooney’s feet. You shouldn’t have a rising 5th year senior leader leave your squad.
Solly is strange but if he doesn’t buy in or he demands the team to be built around him, or whatever his reasoning for quitting mid season, then ok. I’d like to know more about what happened, seeing he was around the program for over a year, you would’ve thought he would know what to expect from the program/how he was going to be used. However, I don’t put his mal-content squarely on Mooney’s shoulders. Yes, he should work to keep players happy, but at the same time, someone who is willing to quit on his team mid season, at least to me, is a bit of a diva and not someone who was ever going to buy in.
PF didn’t leave the program, he was shown the door. And he had little to no impact last season, and when he was on the floor, was a liability. I know others have pined for more playing time for him, I still haven’t seen anything that warrants it (and it seems the coaches agree, who see him far more regularly).
Buck sealed his own fate, and was dismissed. I wish something was done to help him, and for all we know, measures were taken to help him, or he refused help, or yes, it is possible Mooney and the coaches completely ignored the issue. I just find it hard to believe nothing was done after he was suspended (presumably for a related offense) mid season.
Long story short, I see 1 of 4 on Mooney. There is plenty to throw at Mooney in terms of his failures, but that doesn’t mean everything and anything that happens is completely his fault. And yes, I would like to see the 3 spots filled soon and with quality players.
Thanks for bringing a big smile - it will either be her or perhaps one of us on the message board who have all the answers. I'd be up for giving it a shot or better yet how about Dick Tarrant who a Google search shows as a picture of Chuck Boone. (You may want to try that before they wise up and change the picture)
If Mooney had been performing other aspects of his job with excellence, I'm sure many would say this is not all on Mooney. But that is not the case and now this is one more log on big flaming inferno that is out program.
Paul and Solly were recruiting failures, Khwan probably stays if we have a good team and win a lot more than 12 games. Buck might be on Buck but I watched him all season and how frustrated he was from the lack of winning.
Paul and Solly were recruiting failures, Khwan probably stays if we have a good team and win a lot more than 12 games. Buck might be on Buck but I watched him all season and how frustrated he was from the lack of winning.
And do have faith in CM making that turn around or r u suggesting a change in coaching as the quick turnaround.
If it was my $13,000,000 job, I would have a damn drug sniffing dog outside of Buck’s dorm room every night.
Name one top program where a dumpster fire like ours has happened, and as an outsider, you didnt immediately point the finger at the coach? Excuses excuses ... its Mooney's damn team for 13 years and this is where he has brought it. So its no ones fault? Just unlucky circumstances? Come on.
That we have had 9 people leave with years remaining is indicative of a culture problem. This is not a sign of players “staying together.” I would even go farther to say that the culture problem extends beyond just the basketball team, and across campus to some degree.
Well, Nancy will have access to some good sources. As you know, she is the coach of "Power" of the Big3 League. They recently drafted Glen "Big Baby" Davis - he apparently has a new occupation since leaving the NBA:
http://www.tmz.com/2018/03/17/glen-big-baby-davis-arrested-marijuana-drugs-nba/
The buck stops with the Head Coach. We blame coaches for winning and losing, yet they never take a shot on the court, or play 1 second of defense - the players do. So yes - when players leave, even if it for isolated incidents - the coach is ultimately responsible.
This have never happened in such numbers in my memory at UR, but this is also the result of being so bad. That is when guys look elsewhere. When your good or close to the next step up in making the tourney, guys stick together. I think this tells something that even though we had so much coming back, the players did not feel they were close enough to make the next step. So that is when you decide to go elsewhere. And its like dominos.
This have never happened in such numbers in my memory at UR, but this is also the result of being so bad. That is when guys look elsewhere. When your good or close to the next step up in making the tourney, guys stick together. I think this tells something that even though we had so much coming back, the players did not feel they were close enough to make the next step. So that is when you decide to go elsewhere. And its like dominos.
Unfortunately in today's basketball landscape 9 transfers in 4 seasons is less than average. Of course we only had 6 transfers, 1 dismissal, 1 graduation, and 1 quit, but 9 early departures in and of itself is not an indication of anything out of the norm. In fact it is less than normal. This is only perceived as a problem when it is coupled with an inability to maintain a competitive roster which leads to a lack of success on the court. However the attrition rate in and of itself is not what has lead to the inability to maintain a competitive roster. Plenty of schools are able to maintain competitive rosters with similar or higher attrition rates.
Wake. Firing Guadio was a huge mistake and they still haven't recovered, that is all on the AD.
When you say dumpster fire, do you mean players leaving? If so, I have a few points:
Transferring is not a Richmond problem/trend, it is a NCAA men’s basketball problem. This article states that 40% of players leave their first school by the end of their sophomore year: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/tracking-transfer-division-i-men-s-basketball
To be honest, that’s far higher than I expected to find.
Define top program? Because the dukes/Kentucky’s of the world obviously lose players for very different reasons. But looking at equivalent/better programs in our own conference, Dayton has had 5 players transfer this year. I’m not tuned into Dayton, but I don’t think they’re solely blaming the coach.
And yes, the state of the program lies at Mooney’s feet, for sure. But my blame for Mooney doesn’t stem from individuals leaving for whatever reason, especially not players who didn’t fit/weren’t good enough/were dismissed for disciplinary reasons. I think blame falls on him for not having a plan/answer for when it does happen, because as I mentioned above, fluidity of a roster is now common place in college basketball.
Yes, we can agree transfers are rampant in college basketball. As usual, Mooney ignored how many were taking advantage of this trend. Hell, Tarrant and Beilein were playing this game decades back. But no, Mooney if above it. He finally brought in a good transfer in TJ. 13 years and how many good transfers in have we had? Just terrible roster management since 2011. Fore and Buck leaving just highlights that we don't have viable options to fill in and supplement the roster. Never any competition on the roster last 4-5 years.
I'm sorry, but I wasn't referring to e-cigarettes or tobacco vapes. But if I were, I would still have to disagree. Contrary to what you state, most medical and science professionals believe that propylene glycol has no deleterious effects on the human body. E-cigarette juice contains a mix of propylene glycol, glycerin, nicotine, and often various flavoring agents to enhance the taste. Though some suggest that it may be harmful to smoke e-cigarettes (See Vaping Is Far From Harmless ), most concede that the cause of harm would most likely lie in the flavorings, not the propylene glycol. The purchase of e-juice which contains flavorings is optional. The same applies to other forms of vaping.
"In lieu of carcinogenic tobacco, e-cigarettes typically contain three main ingredients: nicotine, a flavoring of some kind [selected by the purchaser] and propylene glycol—a syrupy synthetic liquid added to food, cosmetics, and certain medicines to absorb water and help them stay moist.These are designed to protect the public from potential adverse health effects. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as "generally recognized as safe," which means that it is acceptable for use in flavorings, drugs, and cosmetics, and as a direct food additive." Source: Wiki
Your position is shared by many, but it is in all likelihood incorrect.
That said, I wasn't referring to e-cigarettes or tobacco. I was referring to marijuana. And though many still prefer smoking a joint or a bowl, it is no longer the method de jour. Vaping, dabbing, along with edibles, tinctures, and concentrates have eliminated the need to endure possible health risks associated with smoking in general, whether tobacco products or marijuana.
By way of contrast to the health hazards associated with the current use of alcohol, a study undertaken by NIH (or a similarly prestigious institution, I forget--source and cite to follow once I can relocate it) revealed that over an 18-month period more than 252,000 deaths occurred in the US which were directly related to alcohol use, not including accident-related deaths. The study further pointed out that looking back from the beginning of time through the ending date of the study the following number of deaths could be associated with the use of marijuana: 0.
Maybe it's time to stock up on some O.G. Kush.
What's in your liquor cabinet?
Dayton isn't bashing the coach because he has only been there for one year. Mooney has been here for 13 years and not too much good has happened.
Yes and no. Other schools have players transferring because they already have too many good players ahead of them. Here we have players transfer because they aren't good enough to play Division I basketball. I agree that the local media (mostly O'Connor) has done a poor job explaining the real issue. It's not that we've had a lot of players leave, it's that we signed so many bad players in the first place.
In most cases, we were glad to see them leave – O'Connor has made it sound as if we would have been better if they stayed, which of course is wrong. But had we recruited properly, we wouldn't have had as many guys leave because they would have been good enough to play and contribute.
It is that all his good happened early and he hasn't sustained the success. That is the problem. The argument isn't that Mooney has never done good or has not done much good for the program. Up through 2011 he did a lot of good for the program and an argument otherwise ignores his record and accomplishments at that point.
The argument, which is perfectly valid, is that since 2011 he has not done too much good for the program and that is completely true. Yeah we were close to the tournament twice but couldn't get in. Maybe if we had things would be different. But we didn't. If David Tyree doesn't catch that ball on his helmet or Dez's "drop" was ruled a catch things would be different as well.
I'm about as Pro-Mooney on the boards but I absolutely know he can be criticized while some may think he is above criticism. What I don't like are people like VT on here saying he has never done any good. Yes, he overstayed his welcome and who knows where we would be had he left after 2011 or 2012 for a big job instead of staying. We could be better, we could be worse. Debating a hypothetical will never lead to answers. Rag on the guy all you want, he deserves it. But don't act like he never had success at the program. I'm conceding that it has been a LONG time since that success, so please don't take that out of context.
This point about attrition rate in the article is just completely lacking in perspective, but I have no doubt it will be used as a fire Mooney talking point in the future. There are serious problems with the program, I wish there was some good journalism talking about those things instead of this incredibly superficial analysis.
If roster turnover is unavoidable, then he needs to evolve his systems so that it doesn’t take three years to learn and compete more capably in the transfer market. He seems to have no interest or ability to do either.
I have heard that same statement from many people and to some extent, it is still advanced by some 12-step programs. However, it has proven to be a myth. People recover from addiction every day while still functioning at a high level.
I agree that there needs to be an awakening, an "Aha" moment, or a moment of clarity for someone to begin to recover from addiction, but it is only in the most extreme cases of alcohol abuse with concomitant underlying emotional and mental issues that one has to "crash and burn" before they can get better. The medical model has advanced and continues to replace much of the 12-step thinking. In fact, most legitimate rehab facilities have acknowledged the inaccuracy of this myth.
See HAMS' position. See also Hitting Rock Bottom: Is It Necessary to Change?
I guess the question is will Richmond basketball have to hit rock bottom before getting rid of Mooney, or will Hardt be smart enough to see that he needs to pull the trigger now?
Honestly, worst case scenario right now is we do win 15 games and we keep going down this repetitive path with Mooney in which we are always one year away.
Honestly, worst case scenario right now is we do win 15 games and we keep going down this repetitive path with Mooney in which we are always one year away.
So, with other schools, all of their transfers were good players, but transferred because the players in front of them are too good, but with us, and, only us, I guess, it is only because the players transferring were not good? You need to do more research. Our transfers are very similar to a high majority of other transfers: a combination of the actual players not being good enough and also having better players in front of them.
It sounds like you expect all of our recruits to be quality players who in your mind should all get playing time. No one's roster is like that, and all rosters have guys at the end of the bench who go games without playing. So, I again ask. Why expect us to be different than the other 300+ teams out there?
Many of the ones who do not play end up transferring and trying their luck elsewhere. It happens everywhere, at high majors, mid majors, and the lower conferences. Why, other than your continuous need to blame Mooney for this, are you are acting like we are the exception when we are very much the norm?
Considering all the players that either got released,dismissed or graduated. Paul, Khwan, Buckingham, Solly, Jordan Madrid-Andrews and Joe Kirby. That's 6 players gone in a year. That seems like a lot more than most offseasons. Considering how little production from the bench this year. It usually takes a long time to understand the Princeton offense. I see us winning maybe 14 games next year. Considering all of the chaos happening this offseason. I remember how this past season started we were totally unprepared. I don't see how we look any better next season. When you have so many moving pieces team chemistry is going to be affected.
I can only remember five players remaining that received any minutes this past season.
I can only remember five players remaining that received any minutes this past season.
It seems like the two VT's are polar opposite.
Who would you blame for the state of the basketball program? Mooney is the guy in charge. If 12 and 20 is the norm, we should aspire to be abnormal.
You said Mooney ignored the trend several years ago, which is true, but we made the tourney in back to back years without transfer help, and would have made it again a few years after that if we don't lose PG Cedrick Lindsay, who was averaging over 18 ppg, to a season ending injury. So, why get on Mooney for not playing the transfer game back then? Were you really mad at our tourney teams then and saying "why didn't Mooney get transfers"?
Mooney realized a few years ago that transfers were more and more common, and has since added TJ, Wood, and Francis. No team adds transfers every year, so those 3 additions are pretty solid ones since Mooney started pursuing them.
In addition to Ced's senior year, 2 of the last 4 seasons, with a big reason being TJ, we went 12-6 and 13-5 in the A-10 and just missed the dance those years.
So stop acting like Mooney does not play the transfer game, and also stop acting like every season since 2011 was a 12-20 one.
Fair question and fair to blame the coach for a 12-20 season. But, you just posted why we differ. 12-20 is not the norm, and has not been the norm, but some of you act like it is.
As I just posted, we have not been 12-20 for 7 straight years, but looking at some posts on here, you would think we were. I remember how good we were with Ced, and realize how close we were with the 12-6 and 13-5 A-10 teams recently. I am not ready to give up on our coach over one 12-20 season when, looking at the 8 years before last year's, 5 of the seasons were pretty good ones, including a couple of great ones.
Do you really believe that those who have "given up" on Mooney have done so based on the 12 and 20 record? I don't. I think its because Mooney's close calls that you pointed out represent his ceiling. They, including myself, dont want close calls. We want to dance.
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