At St.Joseph's

[spiderman]

Mooney has mismanaged Goose role all year going back to before he missed games.

you can argue that you don't think Gilyard, Francis and Burton can or should each play 35+ mpg. I think they can and probably should. you don't. that's fine and I understand your concerns with that many minutes.

but it does look like Mooney is going to play those 3 for 35+ mpg.

and if he does, then there just isn't that much time left for Goose, Wilson & Dji. maybe 15 minutes tops. so that's probably 10 for Goose, 5 for Wilson and nothing left for Dji right now barring an injury.

 

[VT4700]

Bottom line is we have two senior guards with a lot of experience and a lot of talent, and also have a very athletic, all around stud of a player who might be one of the best players we've ever had here. They rarely, if ever, play 40 minutes a game, so they usually get a few minutes rest here and there anyway. And that is in addition to the four TV timeouts a half along with halftime. Why anyone would want to give these guys more time on the bench, I will never understand.

 

[VT4700]

you can argue that you don't think Gilyard, Francis and Burton can or should each play 35+ mpg. I think they can and probably should. you don't. that's fine and I understand your concerns with that many minutes.

but it does look like Mooney is going to play those 3 for 35+ mpg.

and if he does, then there just isn't that much time left for Goose, Wilson & Dji. maybe 15 minutes tops. so that's probably 10 for Goose, 5 for Wilson and nothing left for Dji right now barring an injury.

I would say all 15 for Goose when healthy, and even more if we go small at times and keep the other three in. If Wilson is good, his time will come, but it's hard to find minutes when you're behind three versatile guys with a lot of experience and talent.

 

[MrTbone]

Bottom line is we have two senior guards with a lot of experience and a lot of talent, and also have a very athletic, all around stud of a player who might be one of the best players we've ever had here. They rarely, if ever, play 40 minutes a game, so they usually get a few minutes rest here and there anyway. And that is in addition to the four TV timeouts a half along with halftime. Why anyone would want to give these guys more time on the bench, I will never understand.

I don't think most people are advocating reducing those starters' time in close games, they're just anticipating a little less time in blowouts like last night. Just my impression.

 

[GKiller]

you can argue that you don't think Gilyard, Francis and Burton can or should each play 35+ mpg. I think they can and probably should. you don't. that's fine and I understand your concerns with that many minutes.

but it does look like Mooney is going to play those 3 for 35+ mpg.

and if he does, then there just isn't that much time left for Goose, Wilson & Dji. maybe 15 minutes tops. so that's probably 10 for Goose, 5 for Wilson and nothing left for Dji right now barring an injury.

Only 2 out of those 3 r playing 35+ mpg so I don't have to argue that. But the 1 guy who isn't has the strongest case since he's playing the best out of those 3. Francis should be at last year minutes, it's still a lot. Gilyard should be down slightly too. Those guys r not shooting well enough to justify. I suspect they'll get better but again they would still be getting a boatload of time. There r also some times to go small ball and push Cayo out and slide Burton into that defense role, especially depending on matchups.

& I have no idea why you even bring up Dji. He's played 8 minutes all year. he's not even in the equation.

I don't have a problem with short bench overall, I'm not in that camp, but we do have 1 really good player on bench so I want him to get minutes. I'm in the play Goose more camp only. I think it would help the team, his more consistent minutes did last year & part of our underachievement this season has been Mooney mismanagement of Goose imo.

 

[Gospiders06]

My complaint is we are last in bench minutes. Even with a blowout we still see no minutes given to bench players. Prepare everyone for a disappointment versus St.Louis.

Are you really complaining that a walk-on doesn't see more floor time?

 

[Eight Legger]

Unlike most of our other players, Goose likes to drive the lane right to the basket. That alone is reason to give him more minutes, because it wakes up a stagnant pass-it-around-the-perimeter offense and forces the defense to scheme for something different. Cayo is not a dribble-driver, and neither is Grant. Gilyard and Francis prefer to create their own outside jumpers most of the time, in part because they aren't tall enough to take it to the basket directly (unless it's a fast break or backdoor cut).

Burton can and will drive to the bucket, but typically from the baseline. Goose can take it from the top of the key right to the hole, which to me is something we need more of. I feel like we spend so much time trying to set up the back cuts and screens that we often ignore openings to drive it straight to the hoop.

 

[VT4700]

Only 2 out of those 3 r playing 35+ mpg so I don't have to argue that. But the 1 guy who isn't has the strongest case since he's playing the best out of those 3. Francis should be at last year minutes, it's still a lot. Gilyard should be down slightly too. Those guys r not shooting well enough to justify. I suspect they'll get better but again they would still be getting a boatload of time. There r also some times to go small ball and push Cayo out and slide Burton into that defense role, especially depending on matchups.

& I have no idea why you even bring up Dji. He's played 8 minutes all year. he's not even in the equation.

I don't have a problem with short bench overall, I'm not in that camp, but we do have 1 really good player on bench so I want him to get minutes. I'm in the play Goose more camp only. I think it would help the team, his more consistent minutes did last year & part of our underachievement this season has been Mooney mismanagement of Goose imo.

I'm not sure how you mismanage a guy who's been out sick and also out with a groin injury.

 

[spiderman]

Only 2 out of those 3 r playing 35+ mpg so I don't have to argue that. But the 1 guy who isn't has the strongest case since he's playing the best out of those 3.

Burton played 36 against GMU and 40 against LaSalle. he's trending towards 35 mpg. CM gave him a break last night with 32 because we won by 24.

I like Goose. he's not as good as Gilyard, Francis or Burton. I think they're going to play about 35. I'm fine giving the remaining 15 to Goose, but then I'll get yelled at for not developing Wilson. remember ... players somehow only develop in games.

if you want to play Burton some at the 4 (which I suggested for next year and was also yelled at for), then you're not playing Sal.

I don't think any of this changes much. you're making a big case to get more minutes for a decent defender. he's not a game changing defender. he finishes well at the rim but doesn't shoot well from outside. not sure that's the answer right now.

 

[VT4700]

My complaint is we are last in bench minutes. Even with a blowout we still see no minutes given to bench players. Prepare everyone for a disappointment versus St.Louis.

Why is this so important to you? Some of the most successful teams out there rarely use their bench.

 

[plydogg]

I'm not sure how you mismanage a guy who's been out sick and also out with a groin injury.

I’m not sure how you can be unsure of this. We all just watched the same two games where he did it.

 

[plydogg]

Why is this so important to you? Some of the most successful teams out there rarely use their bench.

Who are those teams? No baseless claims allowed here.

 

[VT4700]

I’m not sure how you can be unsure of this. We all just watched the same two games where he did it.

?? Okay. We will just have to disagree. Have you ever had a groin injury?

 

[GKiller]

I'm not sure how you mismanage a guy who's been out sick and also out with a groin injury.

u got me. Yeah I'm clearly arguing he mismanaged him in the games he wasn't available to play. u know he did play 7 straight games at 1 point. I'd say that's a weird comeback but I get it u r a Mooney defender to the end, he could go 15 years without NCAA not just the 10 staring at us like a deer in headlights.

 

[VT4700]

u got me. Yeah I'm clearly arguing he mismanaged him in the games he wasn't available to play. u know he did play 7 straight games at 1 point. I'd say that's a weird comeback but I get it u r a Mooney defender to the end, he could go 15 years without NCAA not just the 10 staring at us like a deer in headlights.

Yes, he played in seven straight games and played decent minutes in them. Then, he's been out awhile with a groin injury and is slowly coming back, and now we're talking about mismanaging? Which if I disagree with of course leads to the Mooney defender talk. Comical.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

I don't think most people are advocating reducing those starters' time in close games, they're just anticipating a little less time in blowouts like last night. Just my impression.

That's it with me 100% of the time.. Only saw 2nd half but with 15+ point lead before the 5 minute mark left in game was surprised both Jacob and Blake were still in game. If a good time to rest some starters before St Louis game here was the opportunity.

Also didn't look at timeline but appeared Mooney had his players attempting shots as soon as an open look up till the last minute or so mark with no regard to slowing it down on offense. Blake looked like he couldn't wait to launch one.

Other than that beat up an inferior opponent with relative ease. Good work!

 

[GKiller]

I don't think any of this changes much. you're making a big case to get more minutes for a decent defender. he's not a game changing defender. he finishes well at the rim but doesn't shoot well from outside. not sure that's the answer right now.

For our team who isn't playing D well at all he probably is a game changing defender. As EL mentions he drives and kicks. Gilyard used to do this he rarely does know I don't know why. If they kept track of secondary assist like hockey I'd argue he's get a lot. Sometimes its the pass after the pass. He cuts really well. telling u has some of the best instincts on team. Mooney has even said so. Things that don't always show in box score. And if he got consistent 3 balls I think he'd shoot as well as Gilyard & Francis this year certainly Gilly. But that's me. Btw if u r looking for answers that's about the only viable one. Not like there r lot of options unless u r holding out on us with them sman. Coaching tactics & mentality would be for D but Mooney is a one trick pony.

 

[GKiller]

Yes, he played in seven straight games and played decent minutes in them. Then, he's been out awhile with a groin injury and is slowly coming back, and now we're talking about mismanaging? Which if I disagree with of course leads to the Mooney defender talk. Comical.

You think I'm just raising the mismanagement now? I guess that's where u got mixed up. While yes he could/should have played a little more in Lasalle loss & St Joes (tho St Joe's may have been an easy game to rest him) it was not about those 2 games for me. I thought that was evident. I raised it early on. It happens unfortunately. Wainwright mismanaged Jermaine Bucknor minutes imo. That was before your time.

 

[Gospiders06]

Our bench got outscored by St.Joseph's bench which is now 1-13. I never will get you to understand.

Why is this so important to you? Some of the most successful teams out there rarely use their bench.

 

[spiderman]

GK,
I just don't see game changing defender. Hall hit shots over him yesterday. no big deal. it wasn't a blown assignment or anything. he does a decent job keeping guys in front of him. but I don't think he defends substantially better than the 3 we're talking about. he's not a monster rebounder or assist guy or steals guy per 40 played.

I'm still trying to figure out who you're playing him over. because you have to take someone out to play him. someone that I don't think needs the extra rest.

 

[VT4700]

Who are those teams? No baseless claims allowed here.

Virginia didn't play a lot of guys and had a few games where they rarely used their bench during their title run. They had 11 total bench minutes against Oregon and 18 against Auburn. Duke recently pretty much only played 6 guys one season. Villanova mostly played six guys in their title season a few years ago with some occasional minutes for a seventh guy. I remember reading an article about teams with shorter benches doing better in the tournament then teams with a lot of bench minutes.

 

[VT4700]

Our bench got outscored by St.Joseph's bench which is now 1-13. I never will get you to understand.

Lol. We won by 23, so you are correct. I will never understand. I just can't imagine watching that game, and saying, "man, if only we had a bench like St. Joe's. Lucky them."

 

[VT4700]

You think I'm just raising the mismanagement now? I guess that's where u got mixed up. While yes he could/should have played a little more in Lasalle loss & St Joes (tho St Joe's may have been an easy game to rest him) it was not about those 2 games for me. I thought that was evident. I raised it early on. It happens unfortunately. Wainwright mismanaged Jermaine Bucknor minutes imo. That was before your time.

I very much remember Wainwright and that was nowhere near before my time. I like Goose a lot, and thought his minutes were fine before the groin injury. And, I think he would have played more than 10 minutes against LaSalle had he been 100%. We will just have to disagree on all that. All good.

 

[VT4700]

GK,
I just don't see game changing defender. Hall hit shots over him yesterday. no big deal. it wasn't a blown assignment or anything. he does a decent job keeping guys in front of him. but I don't think he defends substantially better than the 3 we're talking about. he's not a monster rebounder or assist guy or steals guy per 40 played.

I'm still trying to figure out who you're playing him over. because you have to take someone out to play him. someone that I don't think needs the extra rest.

That's the key. Who are you taking out? I guess some don't value Jacob, Blake, and Tyler as much as we do? I know I would have a hard time taking any of them off the floor.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I remember reading an article about teams with shorter benches doing better in the tournament then teams with a lot of bench minutes.

*than

How have we done in the tournament with our short bench minutes?

 

[SpiderRick]

With no bench experience we can't win four games in four days, it's that simple. By the end of regular season, our starters probably will wind up playing 30% to 40% more minutes than ("then" for 4700) any other team. No matter how good the shoes are, the more you wear them, the sooner they wear out.

 

[VT4700]

With no bench experience we can't win four games in four days, it's that simple. By the end of regular season, our starters probably will wind up playing 30% to 40% more minutes than ("then" for 4700) any other team. No matter how good the shoes are, the more you wear them, the sooner they wear out.

Forgive the grammar. Voice to text. Anyway, we should be talking about three games in three days. And, if Goose is healthy, we should be able to sub as much as we want with Goose, Sal, and Grace. A lot of teams out there mainly play about seven guys. I just don't understand the debate about more bench minutes. Just using Andre for 18 minutes for Jacob, Blake, and Tyler, means we could keep each of them at 34 minutes if we really wanted to. I don't think any of our guys will wear down at the end. We heard that last year, and we won 9 of 10 at the end. These guys are 20-year-olds in the best shape of their lives, playing two games a week and 20-some games for the season this year. Plus, they have already had a couple extra week or longer breaks. It's not like they're playing an 81 game NBA schedule with a bunch of back to backs in there all year. They will be fine.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

With no bench experience we can't win four games in four days, it's that simple. By the end of regular season, our starters probably will wind up playing 30% to 40% more minutes than ("then" for 4700) any other team. No matter how good the shoes are, the more you wear them, the sooner they wear out.

The bottom line is, we don't know if we can win four games in four days, or three games in three days...

...because we haven't even been able to win two games in two days for the past decade.

 

[spiderman]

every team has guys playing at least as much as Burton (32), Cayo (30) and Golden (28). heck the entire SBU starting 5 plays over 30 mpg and they're in 1st place. Dayton has 2 guys that never come out unless it's a blowout.

so it's just our guards we're worried about, right? I'm not worried that a couple extra minutes per game will wear them down playing 2 games per week. I don't remember Spider fans freaking out about KA playing 36 mpg in 2011.

 

[SpiderTrap]

My issue with the bench this year is we have no one that can give that "spark" that most good teams, even those under Mooney have had. Just thinking Spider teams - I can remember under Beilein a guy named Rick Houston. Was basically a shooter off the bench - but some nights he would go off and get you 15 points, other nights - just 3-4. But he had the potential to score big and provide an offensive "spark" - so other teams had to respect him. Jermain Bucknor I felt like was that guy in 04 under Wainwright - would come off the bench, provide some energy and spark and could score 12-15 points if you left him alone. I felt like Brothers and Kevin Smith were key bench guys for Mooney during his NCAA run - giving energy, and a spark off the bench.
Yes - we have a starting 5 that is very good, but again with our poor defense of giving up over 70 points a night - we are asking those 5 guys to score 75-80 points as a group or we lose. I am not sure that is a formula you can ride for the entire A10 season, and especially not the A10 tourney or NCAA tourney. It will work enough to win games and probably finish 3rd or 4th, but I think that might be the ceiling unless we get something out of the bench.

 

[VT4700]

And, KA did not wear down at all. His last 7 regular season games he played 40, 39, 37, 37, 39, 36, and 38 minutes. Then, in the 3 A-10 tourney games he played 38, 39, and 38. Then, in the 3 NCAA tourney games he played 40, 38, and 38. So, great point Sman, if that didn't bother you then, Jacob's and Blake's minutes shouldn't bother you now.

 

[VT4700]

My issue with the bench this year is we have no one that can give that "spark" that most good teams, even those under Mooney have had. Just thinking Spider teams - I can remember under Beilein a guy named Rick Houston. Was basically a shooter off the bench - but some nights he would go off and get you 15 points, other nights - just 3-4. But he had the potential to score big and provide an offensive "spark" - so other teams had to respect him. Jermain Bucknor I felt like was that guy in 04 under Wainwright - would come off the bench, provide some energy and spark and could score 12-15 points if you left him alone. I felt like Brothers and Kevin Smith were key bench guys for Mooney during his NCAA run - giving energy, and a spark off the bench.
Yes - we have a starting 5 that is very good, but again with our poor defense of giving up over 70 points a night - we are asking those 5 guys to score 75-80 points as a group or we lose. I am not sure that is a formula you can ride for the entire A10 season, and especially not the A10 tourney or NCAA tourney. It will work enough to win games and probably finish 3rd or 4th, but I think that might be the ceiling unless we get something out of the bench.

And who would the spark had been if Houston, Bucknor, Brothers, Smith, and other past sparks had gotten hurt? We were set up to have Tyler and Crabtree off the bench this year. Then, Goose misses time making it 3 rotation guys out, and people still complain about the bench depth?

 

[Spider B]

And, KA did not wear down at all. His last 7 regular season games he played 40, 39, 37, 37, 39, 36, and 38 minutes. Then, in the 3 A-10 tourney games he played 38, 39, and 38. Then, in the 3 NCAA tourney games he played 40, 38, and 38. So, great point Sman, if that didn't bother you then, Jacob's and Blake's minutes shouldn't bother you now.

That was 2011. Ancient history! Have you seen us in the A10 tourney the last decade. Not pretty.

 

[MrTbone]

every team has guys playing at least as much as Burton (32), Cayo (30) and Golden (28). heck the entire SBU starting 5 plays over 30 mpg and they're in 1st place. Dayton has 2 guys that never come out unless it's a blowout.

so it's just our guards we're worried about, right? I'm not worried that a couple extra minutes per game will wear them down playing 2 games per week. I don't remember Spider fans freaking out about KA playing 36 mpg in 2011.

Generally agree on this. I think the one gap in this is something mentioned elsewhere which is if/when we want to press. I don't think CM has ever been much of a press defender and it's debatable if this is something we should employ more frequently when we start to get down in games. Anecdotally we've had some success on D when we press but there's a tradeoff in effort. So there's some value to everyone being ready to press, and subsequently, be prepared to maybe sub the bench in a bit more to spell starters.

 

[SpiderTrap]

And who would the spark had been if Houston, Bucknor, Brothers, Smith, and other past sparks had gotten hurt? We were set up to have Tyler and Crabtree off the bench this year. Then, Goose misses time making it 3 rotation guys out, and people still complain about the bench depth?

I think when Rick Houston was senior Skrocki was a frosh and would give a spark here and there. After Bucknor on that 04 team you had I think Merritt off the bench and Moliva as well. Past Brothers you had Cedrick Lindsay and past Smith the previous year you had Martel and even Geriot was coming off the bench at that point. So there were options,
I am not as concerned with minutes. I think playing 2 games a week our starting 5 can hold up. And even in the NCAA tourney playing 2 games 3 days - they can do that. The risk we run being so thin - is just one minor injury or even just foul trouble, and we get hurt extremely bad from an offensive perspective.
Lets look at some other teams. Not the top teams in the country cause that is not our competition right now. But lets look at Louisville - ranked 25th. They only play 7 guys in a regular rotation. But guy 6 and 7 each get about 21 and 14 minutes a game. And from those 2 guys they get about 10 points and 5 rebounds. One kid has 4 games in double digits and the other is a frosh with only 1 game in double digits this year. St. Louis is ranked 22 and they play about 9 guys in rotation. Their bench players range in minutes from 9 to 17 minutes a night. And in total they average 22 points and 8 rebounds.
SO can you win without a bench - of course you can. Our starting 5 has shown they are capable of that. Has Mooney won without a bench - I don't think so. And when you don't have a bench (as I have said before) - what happens next year when everyone except Burton leaves? How far back do we fall?

 

[spiderman]

Generally agree on this. I think the one gap in this is something mentioned elsewhere which is if/when we want to press. I don't think CM has ever been much of a press defender and it's debatable if this is something we should employ more frequently when we start to get down in games. Anecdotally we've had some success on D when we press but there's a tradeoff in effort. So there's some value to everyone being ready to press, and subsequently, be prepared to maybe sub the bench in a bit more to spell starters.

agreed. I'd love to be able to press more. mostly because our straight up man defense isn't doing well.

we can't press because we're not deep enough now. we looked really deep but stuff happened. most teams have issues to overcome. you adjust. we've adjusted. we adjusted by shortening the roster.

 

[VT4700]

I think when Rick Houston was senior Skrocki was a frosh and would give a spark here and there. After Bucknor on that 04 team you had I think Merritt off the bench and Moliva as well. Past Brothers you had Cedrick Lindsay and past Smith the previous year you had Martel and even Geriot was coming off the bench at that point. So there were options,
I am not as concerned with minutes. I think playing 2 games a week our starting 5 can hold up. And even in the NCAA tourney playing 2 games 3 days - they can do that. The risk we run being so thin - is just one minor injury or even just foul trouble, and we get hurt extremely bad from an offensive perspective.
Lets look at some other teams. Not the top teams in the country cause that is not our competition right now. But lets look at Louisville - ranked 25th. They only play 7 guys in a regular rotation. But guy 6 and 7 each get about 21 and 14 minutes a game. And from those 2 guys they get about 10 points and 5 rebounds. One kid has 4 games in double digits and the other is a frosh with only 1 game in double digits this year. St. Louis is ranked 22 and they play about 9 guys in rotation. Their bench players range in minutes from 9 to 17 minutes a night. And in total they average 22 points and 8 rebounds.
SO can you win without a bench - of course you can. Our starting 5 has shown they are capable of that. Has Mooney won without a bench - I don't think so. And when you don't have a bench (as I have said before) - what happens next year when everyone except Burton leaves? How far back do we fall?

We could always start Sal, and have Burton come off the bench to give us more bench scoring if that would make you feel better about bench points. Points are points, so I just don't get the frustration, but we can just disagree.

 

[VT4700]

agreed. I'd love to be able to press more. mostly because our straight up man defense isn't doing well.

we can't press because we're not deep enough now. we looked really deep but stuff happened. most teams have issues to overcome. you adjust. we've adjusted. we adjusted by shortening the roster.

All things considered, I think it's pretty nice to have experienced guys like Grace, Sal, and Andre off the bench.

 

[RichmondNative]

The most interesting thing in this game was listening to Lunardi saying that there are 4 teams in the A10 worthy of going to the NCAA tournament. Then he proceeded to give shout outs to just about everyone he knew in Richmond. I think that must have been his veiled way of saying “your money at work”. There definitely wasn’t much to talk about during the game, so he used his time wisely. Definitely better than listening to him tout the purchase of the basket cams on some Hawks budget.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

The most interesting thing in this game was listening to Lunardi saying that there are 4 teams in the A10 worthy of going to the NCAA tournament. Then he proceeded to give shout outs to just about everyone he knew in Richmond. I think that must have been his veiled way of saying “your money at work”. There definitely wasn’t much to talk about during the game, so he used his time wisely. Definitely better than listening to him tout the purchase of the basket cams on some Hawks budget.

I know that Lunardi said that, but I don't see 4 A-10 teams making the tournament. I'll be shocked if that happens.