An embarrassment

[MrTbone]

I think losing two players who could have contributed meaningful minutes is a huge blow. I don't buy the premise that ANO wasn't a contributor, he was playing very well down the stretch last year (9.9ppg) and was on pace to become the all-time block leader at UR. While his offense may not have made us significantly more potent with this year's group, I do think his defense was missed.

I think a front line of TA/TJ/ANO could have been pretty potent.

 

[iSpider]

The problems within our program go a lot deeper than the losses of Josh Jones and ANO. We have major recruiting issues, an insular staff who defers almost completely to the head coach, an indescribable lack of urgency and intensity both on and off the court from the head coach and most disturbing a lack of accountability for winning that seems to permeate the program.
And this is not even going into the X and O's strategy and player personnel decisions that are questioned daily on this board.

I agree that we have had several recruiting failures and believe this may account for most of the rest. Hard to understand how this happened. As to the assistants, who can say what goes on between them and CM in their meetings? I would think that they make meaningful suggestions which are duly considered.

It would be great if these questions could be put to CM in a sit down after the season or if someone could have a one-on-one with him and thee be a candid and direct Q & A.. Though I respect the opinions of many on this board who criticise him, I'd wager that his analyses for the things criticised might change the minds of many.

The good news is that we seem to have done much better with the incoming and 2017 recruiting classes. Seems to me that we are only one or two good big men away from soon (two years) being back to where we were. Nick, DeMonte, Grant, Marquis and Bryce all will contribute, at least two of them right away. If we land Andre and/or Aleem this year (or fine a hidden gem) and another big man or two next year, we will be fine, especially with Khwan, Julius, Jesse, Paul and Kovien already on board.

I am disappointed with this season, and my expectations were not as high as many. But the regular season is history, and I intend now to focus on the tournament, continued recruiting and how we might maximize the results of the senior seasons for TJ, SDJ and Marshall. If I lose interest in that, I may go clean my pool and get some sun as well.

 

[Captain Anderson]

I agree that we have had several recruiting failures and believe this may account for most of the rest. Hard to understand how this happened. As to the assistants, who can say what goes on between them and CM in their meetings? I would think that they make meaningful suggestions which are duly considered.

It would be great if these questions could be put to CM in a sit down after the season or if someone could have a one-on-one with him and thee be a candid and direct Q & A.. Though I respect the opinions of many on this board who criticise him, I'd wager that his analyses for the things criticised might change the minds of many.

The good news is that we seem to have done much better with the incoming and 2017 recruiting classes. Seems to me that we are only one or two good big men away from soon (two years) being back to where we were. Nick, DeMonte, Grant, Marquis and Bryce all will contribute, at least two of them right away. If we land Andre and/or Aleem this year (or fine a hidden gem) and another big man or two next year, we will be fine, especially with Khwan, Julius, Jesse, Paul and Kovien already on board.

I am disappointed with this season, and my expectations were not as high as many. But the regular season is history, and I intend now to focus on the tournament, continued recruiting and how we might maximize the results of the senior seasons for TJ, SDJ and Marshall. If I lose interest in that, I may go clean my pool and get some sun as well.

iSpider, very good and well thought out post. I think the natural reaction during a miserable season like this is for posters to vent and be negative. I've definitely felt that way and can confess to going from mad to basically apathetic at this point. I will still be rooting for the team until the final buzzer in Brooklyn this week but this has been a brutal season.

All that being said, I do have some real concerns about where we will be in a year or two. It seems like we have some very talented wing players coming in but the lack of big men is alarming. After next year we lose TJ and Marshall and really have nothing in the pipeline inside with PF having gained zero experience this year. Big physical teams have always given us fits with our rebounding issues and that trend could even be amplified without bringing in some quality bigs and soon. I worry that we may be a little better in a year or two but not good enough to be an at large team. That scenario would put us at a 6-7 year tournament drought. And while I know a lot of folks hate even mentioning VCU on this board it does bear mentioning that they have made the tournament every year since our last appearance and show no signs of slowing down even with a first year coach. We need to get these recruiting issues fixed and fast.

 

[urmite]

iSpider, very good and well thought out post. I think the natural reaction during a miserable season like this is for posters to vent and be negative. I've definitely felt that way and can confess to going from mad to basically apathetic at this point. I will still be rooting for the team until the final buzzer in Brooklyn this week but this has been a brutal season.

All that being said, I do have some real concerns about where we will be in a year or two. It seems like we have some very talented wing players coming in but the lack of big men is alarming. After next year we lose TJ and Marshall and really have nothing in the pipeline inside with PF having gained zero experience this year. Big physical teams have always given us fits with our rebounding issues and that trend could even be amplified without bringing in some quality bigs and soon. I worry that we may be a little better in a year or two but not good enough to be an at large team. That scenario would put us at a 6-7 year tournament drought. And while I know a lot of folks hate even mentioning VCU on this board it does bear mentioning that they have made the tournament every year since our last appearance and show no signs of slowing down even with a first year coach. We need to get these recruiting issues fixed and fast.

About tournament appearances, yes, having revenue from the last appearance stop before the next appearance is too long.

However, streaks of appearances are not that wide spread.
Current top 11
Kansas 26
Duke 20
Michigan St 18

Wisconsin 17
Gonzaga 17 (not certain this year)

Louisville 9 (out)

Ohio St 7 (not certain this year)

San Diego St 6 (not certain this year)

UNC 5
Cincinnati 5
VCU 5 (no comment)

 

[SpiderGuy]

The problems within our program go a lot deeper than the losses of Josh Jones and ANO. We have major recruiting issues, an insular staff who defers almost completely to the head coach, an indescribable lack of urgency and intensity both on and off the court from the head coach and most disturbing a lack of accountability for winning that seems to permeate the program.

And this is not even going into the X and O's strategy and player personnel decisions that are questioned daily on this board.

X2. Well said.

This is why I would disagree with posts that say if we just fix the defense then we'll be on the way.

 

[spiderman]

I'm on the other side. I think it really is just as simple as fixing our defense. not the scheme. the way the players play it. having Fore is a big start to fixing it. I don't know if we have all of the pieces yet, but some are coming really soon. could use a 6'8"-ish athletic big man.

 

[SpiderK]

I'm on the other side. I think it really is just as simple as fixing our defense. not the scheme. the way the players play it. having Fore is a big start to fixing it. I don't know if we have all of the pieces yet, but some are coming really soon. could use a 6'8"-ish athletic big man.

Spide, didn't we just have "athletic" 6'5", 6'7" and 6'8" guys?? I think it's more a "heart" "energy" and coaching issue. Not saying fire Mooney, but he needs to get off his ass and show these kids how and why they play at this level.

 

[97spiderfan]

I'm on the other side. I think it really is just as simple as fixing our defense. not the scheme. the way the players play it. having Fore is a big start to fixing it. I don't know if we have all of the pieces yet, but some are coming really soon. could use a 6'8"-ish athletic big man.

Oh the irony, as someone who has defended starting Trey Davis ALL year long and the intangibles and defensive prowess, is now pining for Khwan Fore.

Khwan probably would have done a lot more to fix it this year as well, unfortunately Mooney was wedded to Trey Davis playing 30 plus minutes per game at the same position. Which you fully supported, of course.

 

[fan2011]

Oh the irony, as someone who has defended starting Trey Davis ALL year long and the intangibles and defensive prowess, is now pining for Khwan Fore.

Khwan probably would have done a lot more to fix it this year as well, unfortunately Mooney was wedded to Trey Davis playing 30 plus minutes per game at the same position. Which you fully supported, of course.

I think Mooney would have played Khwan more if Khwan fouled less. The only person on the team with more fouls per minute than Khwan is Julius. Of course the aggressiveness we all love in Khwan is the reason he fouls often, but Mooney really loves Khwan's defense and wants him there at the end of the game.

I think it is interesting that Mooney has been putting in Khwan and Julius at the end of the games on defense (perhaps this is artificially inflating their foul rate trying to send the other team to the line and extend the game?). He obviously thinks these are two of our top defenders, they are very aggressive on defense. They both are quick, switch well, are very athletic, and seem overall pretty good defensively. Khwan is the best rebounding guard we have had under Mooney (not saying much) and Julius seems decent at rebounding. If Julius can find a good way to contribute to the offense (either start making 3s or add some other dimension to his game) he will be playing a lot of time next year.

 

[I-M-UR]

I agree that we have had several recruiting failures and believe this may account for most of the rest. Hard to understand how this happened. As to the assistants, who can say what goes on between them and CM in their meetings? I would think that they make meaningful suggestions which are duly considered.

It would be great if these questions could be put to CM in a sit down after the season or if someone could have a one-on-one with him and thee be a candid and direct Q & A.. Though I respect the opinions of many on this board who criticise him, I'd wager that his analyses for the things criticised might change the minds of many.

The good news is that we seem to have done much better with the incoming and 2017 recruiting classes. Seems to me that we are only one or two good big men away from soon (two years) being back to where we were. Nick, DeMonte, Grant, Marquis and Bryce all will contribute, at least two of them right away. If we land Andre and/or Aleem this year (or fine a hidden gem) and another big man or two next year, we will be fine, especially with Khwan, Julius, Jesse, Paul and Kovien already on board.

I am disappointed with this season, and my expectations were not as high as many. But the regular season is history, and I intend now to focus on the tournament, continued recruiting and how we might maximize the results of the senior seasons for TJ, SDJ and Marshall. If I lose interest in that, I may go clean my pool and get some sun as well.

Why do you think this staff will do more with this good recruiting class than they did with last highly touted recruiting class DT, TD, Ano, and TA? Definition of insanity.

 

[fan2011]

Why do you think this staff will do more with this good recruiting class than they did with last highly touted recruiting class DT, TD, Ano, and TA? Definition of insanity.

Pretty sure ANO was the only one in that class who wasn't a 2*. Trey and Deion weren't even given a 2* by many recruiting services. The incoming class is much more highly touted than the current seniors were. How that plays out remains to be seen, but there is plenty of reason for optimism.

 

[spiderman]

Oh the irony, as someone who has defended starting Trey Davis ALL year long and the intangibles and defensive prowess, is now pining for Khwan Fore.

Khwan probably would have done a lot more to fix it this year as well, unfortunately Mooney was wedded to Trey Davis playing 30 plus minutes per game at the same position. Which you fully supported, of course.

lol. Khwan's played more and more as the season progressed, averaging 20 mpg for the season and has averaged 24 mpg since the 1st VCU game. how much more did you want him to play? 30 mpg? a whole 6 more minutes per game than he's been getting?
Trey and Khwan were both in the rotation. I agree Khwan should play. always did. love the kid. but I also think Trey needed to play. we only had a 7 man rotation, now up to 8. if you want to argue that we should have been playing Julius more earlier, or Jesse or Paul or Moran ... whoever ... over Trey, then we have an argument. because despite your constant criticisms, Trey gave us a better chance to win games over these other options. in CM's mind anyway. and I don't disagree.

 

[urmite]

Pretty sure ANO was the only one in that class who wasnt a 2*. The incoming class is much more highly touted than the current seniors were. How that plays out remains to be seen, but there is plenty of reason for optimism.

If 247 is accurate, here are our top 300 3 star recruits
Merritt 107
Godwin 114
Giddings 175
Buckingham 185
ANO 193
Courtney Nelson 193
Crank 208
Trey Davis 222
Lindsey 227
Sherod 241
Sandoval 254
Gonzalvez 298

Wood 247
Vassallo 231

Other selected
Anderson 382 - 3*
Harper 626 - 2*
S Jones 368 -2*
Golden 372 - 2*

Fore 451-2*
J Johnson 405-2*
Geroit 402 -2*

 

[97spiderfan]

That list right there shows you all you need to do about the accuracy of recruiting rankings. Outside the Top 25, maybe 50, it is complete guesswork.

 

[Captain Anderson]

Thanks for posting that info mite. Our guard and wing positions look like they are about to receive a heavy talent injection. Very exciting when paired with an experienced KF down the road. Do we add a transfer big or are we in the mix with any quality high school front court players? I know this topic has been beaten into the ground (No thanks to my own posts) but none of those 3 star players mite just listed in bold are taller than 6'5. We have to have somebody manning the 4 and 5 spots (and have backups there) after TJ and MW depart next year.

 

[97spiderfan]

I think Mooney would have played Khwan more if Khwan fouled less. The only person on the team with more fouls per minute than Khwan is Julius. Of course the aggressiveness we all love in Khwan is the reason he fouls often, but Mooney really loves Khwan's defense and wants him there at the end of the game.

I think it is interesting that Mooney has been putting in Khwan and Julius at the end of the games on defense (perhaps this is artificially inflating their foul rate trying to send the other team to the line and extend the game?). He obviously thinks these are two of our top defenders, they are very aggressive on defense. They both are quick, switch well, are very athletic, and seem overall pretty good defensively. Khwan is the best rebounding guard we have had under Mooney (not saying much) and Julius seems decent at rebounding. If Julius can find a good way to contribute to the offense (either start making 3s or add some other dimension to his game) he will be playing a lot of time next year.

Khwan fouled out on 1 game all year (the Dayton game where we had a load of intentional fouls in the last minute). And if Julius is playing a lot of time next year, that is not a good sign. We need Sherod and Buckingham to be demonstratively better from the jump next year than Julius or we are in for another long season.

 

[urmite]

That list right there shows you all you need to do about the accuracy of recruiting rankings. Outside the Top 25, maybe 50, it is complete guesswork.

I think any guesswork gets even fuzzier outside the top 500.
Not sure why I can't find Anthony, Allen, or Cline at all.
Also looked for Dobbins, Skrocki, Steenberge, and Bucknor without success. But did find this.
http://www.crabdribbles.com/dunk-of-the-year-anthony-dobbins-rises-up-and-destroys-the-rim/
If that is who I think it is.

 

[iSpider]

Why do you think this staff will do more with this good recruiting class than they did with last highly touted recruiting class DT, TD, Ano, and TA? Definition of insanity.

Pretty sure ANO was the only one in that class who wasn't a 2*. Trey and Deion weren't even given a 2* by many recruiting services. The incoming class is much more highly touted than the current seniors were. How that plays out remains to be seen, but there is plenty of reason for optimism.

What he said.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Pretty sure ANO was the only one in that class who wasn't a 2*. Trey and Deion weren't even given a 2* by many recruiting services. The incoming class is much more highly touted than the current seniors were. How that plays out remains to be seen, but there is plenty of reason for optimism.

Was thinking the same with ANO being the only +2 guy. At least VC has Buck and Nick as 3.0s and GG as 2.5. How much priority you give those numbers is up for debate, but for comparison sake this class numbers wise appears to be CM's best to date. Makes me also feel optimistic going forward. Just hope these players are the real deal and CM gets the most and more out of their raw talent.

 

[urmite]

Was thinking the same with ANO being the only +2 guy. At least VC has Buck and Nick as 3.0s and GG as 2.5. How much priority you give those numbers is up for debate, but for comparison sake this class numbers wise appears to be CM's best to date. Makes me also feel optimistic going forward. Just hope these players are the real deal and CM gets the most and more out of their raw talent.

I agree. And went back to make sure I wasn't seeing things. These to two pages don't appear the same.

http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/trey-davis

http://247sports.com/Player/Trey-Davis-12266

The last two seasons, verbal commits has don't a better job keeping track of who is recruiting a player, and 247 has done a better job keeping track of who is rating a player.

Before that, I have no idea.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Just saw urmite's list after posting above and sites have differing opinions.For glass half-fill sake next year, I'm going with VC. Two of our current seniors were 2.0 at VC. I wonder if research has been done on which site has been the most accurate?

 

[CarolinaSpider]

If 247 is accurate, here are our top 300 3 star recruits
Merritt 107
Godwin 114
Giddings 175
Buckingham 185
ANO 193
Courtney Nelson 193
Crank 208
Trey Davis 222
Lindsey 227
Sherod 241
Sandoval 254
Gonzalvez 298

Wood 247
Vassallo 231

Other selected
Anderson 382 - 3*
Harper 626 - 2*
S Jones 368 -2*
Golden 372 - 2*

Fore 451-2*
J Johnson 405-2*
Geroit 402 -2*

How the heck is Deon Merritt our top recruit? He was a bowling ball that was quick, but I remember at Wake he and Chris Paul having to be separated
because CP was in his head and Merritt could not handle it. He was #! in UFC Coed matches.

 

[Eight Legger]

Merritt was like the top-ranked PG out of NYC that year. Wainwright had to hire his HS coach in order to get him, which in retrospect should have told us all we needed to know about all three of them.

 

[MolivaManiac]

Merritt was like the top-ranked PG out of NYC that year. Wainwright had to hire his HS coach in order to get him, which in retrospect should have told us all we needed to know about all three of them.

DeCeasare ate the hell out of a plate of wings at the alumni event after the game at GW one year. Really impressive stuff.

 

[SFspidur]

As I recall, many services had Merritt even higher, like in the 40-70 range. Until he committed to us and they dropped him a bit.

 

[spiderman]

Spide, didn't we just have "athletic" 6'5", 6'7" and 6'8" guys?? I think it's more a "heart" "energy" and coaching issue. Not saying fire Mooney, but he needs to get off his ass and show these kids how and why they play at this level.

yes we had forwards, and we need to replace. with Wesson or Ford or someone like them.

 

[SpiderK]

If nothing else, mooney does ok recruiting guards. I will give him that. He doesn't have Tarrant's talent for picking big men and developing them.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I think Mooney would have played Khwan more if Khwan fouled less. The only person on the team with more fouls per minute than Khwan is Julius. Of course the aggressiveness we all love in Khwan is the reason he fouls often, but Mooney really loves Khwan's defense and wants him there at the end of the game.

I think it is interesting that Mooney has been putting in Khwan and Julius at the end of the games on defense (perhaps this is artificially inflating their foul rate trying to send the other team to the line and extend the game?). He obviously thinks these are two of our top defenders, they are very aggressive on defense. They both are quick, switch well, are very athletic, and seem overall pretty good defensively. Khwan is the best rebounding guard we have had under Mooney (not saying much) and Julius seems decent at rebounding. If Julius can find a good way to contribute to the offense (either start making 3s or add some other dimension to his game) he will be playing a lot of time next year.

This is not intended to be personal & mean, so I hope no-one takes it that way. BUT, if JJ is "playing a lot of time next year" as you predict, then it will not be the year that we hope for.

 

[fan2011]

This is not intended to be personal & mean, so I hope no-one takes it that way. BUT, if JJ is "playing a lot of time next year" as you predict, then it will not be the year that we hope for.

I did not predict JJ will be playing a lot of time. I said if he improves on offense he will play a lot since his defense is already very good.

 

[spiderman]

I'm not writing off JJ yet. plays D, and he scored a boatload of points at a high level HS. the college game is a big step up. maybe it's just taking him a little extra time to get acclimated. he didn't play AAU.

 

[MrTbone]

One thing JJ needs to do is take the extra 12" he is giving up when he shoots from 3. He seems reluctant to be right at the line, but that foot makes a difference in making the 3 consistently.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

I think Mooney would have played Khwan more if Khwan fouled less. The only person on the team with more fouls per minute than Khwan is Julius. Of course the aggressiveness we all love in Khwan is the reason he fouls often, but Mooney really loves Khwan's defense and wants him there at the end of the game.

It didn't stop him from playing TD many minutes. His foul count is right there with KF in conference play. And KF had better OR and DR numbers along with more steals per minute. I think everyone here knows what shooting numbers comparison will point out.

Not directed at you 2011 but for everyone here sometimes I post statements without giving out exact numbers but it's all there if you go to kenpom for %s and basketball reference for number totals. I make mistakes at times but not intentional like say a politican.

 

[fan2011]

It didn't stop him from playing TD many minutes. His foul count is right there with KF in conference play. And KF had better OR and DR numbers along with more steals per minute. I think everyone here knows what shooting numbers comparison will point out.

I think Mooney keeps players he values more on a shorter leash when it comes to foul trouble. He values Khwan A LOT at the end of games. He doesn't seem to mind letting Trey and Deion play with a lot of fouls, but he will take out TJ or TA pretty quickly when they get in foul trouble. I think he protects Khwan to make sure he is there at the end of the game. I don't have any numbers to back me up, just going with the feeling I get from watching the games.

 

[urmite]

I think Mooney keeps players he values more on a shorter leash when it comes to foul trouble. He values Khwan A LOT at the end of games. He doesn't seem to mind letting Trey and Deion play with a lot of fouls, but he will take out TJ or TA pretty quickly when they get in foul trouble. I think he protects Khwan to make sure he is there at the end of the game. I don't have any numbers to back me up, just going with the feeling I get from watching the games.

{insincere comment alert} You have feelings?

 

[fan2011]

{insincere comment alert} You have feelings?

I am trying them out.

 

[MrTbone]

I've always thought it is a curious approach to keep guys from fouling out. Understandably, you don't want a guy with 3 or 4 fouls to play a lot of minutes with them, lest they play more tentatively, but in the final analysis, if they are sitting minutes on the bench before their 5th foul, are those minutes in duration any shorter than the minutes they sit on the bench after their 5th foul?

 

[spiderman]

I've always thought it is a curious approach to keep guys from fouling out. Understandably, you don't want a guy with 3 or 4 fouls to play a lot of minutes with them, lest they play more tentatively, but in the final analysis, if they are sitting minutes on the bench before their 5th foul, are those minutes in duration any shorter than the minutes they sit on the bench after their 5th foul?

totally agree. watching a HS state tournament game last night, the starting SG commits his 2nd foul in the 1st qtr. coach holds him out until the 2nd half. game ends, kid still has 2 fouls. he held him out much longer then necessary.

 

[spider fan]

I've always thought it is a curious approach to keep guys from fouling out. Understandably, you don't want a guy with 3 or 4 fouls to play a lot of minutes with them, lest they play more tentatively, but in the final analysis, if they are sitting minutes on the bench before their 5th foul, are those minutes in duration any shorter than the minutes they sit on the bench after their 5th foul?

The "supposed" logic is that the person is so valuable they need to be playing at the end of the game. Difficult to know if players are more tentative on defense when they have 3 or 4 fouls. Our defense in many cases this year appeared to be very reluctant to pack the lane to keep opponents from going to the hoop no matter how many or how few fouls a player had.

 

[WebSpinner]

seems to me that the only "touting" of our recruits is on here not in reality

 

[iSpider]

seems to me that the only "touting" of our recruits is on here not in reality

Not saying that you are correct, but even if so, that is soon to change. We have at least two members of the A10 All Rookie Team committed to play for the Spiders next year.