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A PROPOSAL

T

tarrantula

Graduate Assistant
Gold Member
May 8, 2003
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I have often mentioned my opposition to political comments in the midst of discussions on Spider related topics on our other three boards. This is an election year and as all of us are educated and as all of us seem to be decidedly opinionated, I suggest we designate a place for political discussions. This "Off Topic" board is the obvious choice. How about a pledge to have those discussions here and leave the other boards free from those kind of comments. In fact, ask the moderators of the site to erase any political comments, derogatory comments about other posters and generally anything on the other three boards that is not related to Spider sports.

Meanwhile, ardent proponents of political views can have at it on this board. Talk about the economy, health care, social security, political figures, foreign affairs, etc...refer to political people and ideas in any terms you choose, but refrain from offensive statements about other posters who disagree with you. I've been woking in courtrooms where emotions run high and tempers erupt for more than 40 years. I've long ago learned to take insults tossed about in the heat of the moment as the product of emotion rather than deep animosity. I would not have proposed this idea if I thought that it would lead to anger between participants. I believe that argument fosters insight....so, let's have at it in this crucial time in our history. If any are interested, pick a topic and let's talk.
 
I like that idea, although I suspect it could put you and me at odds. So what? Like lawyers after a tough court battle, we could still enjoy a beer together at the end of the day.
 
GREECE

a country in trouble only to bailed out again or some stains on one's slacks?
 
Re: GREECE

Spinner may have been tongue in cheek or may have a serious topic to present. I will admit that I don't know much about how Greece got in its present peril and at the moment don't have any strong opinion regarding how to fix it. I will be glad to search the web for explanations and advice concerning the situation. Also, will look to see our government's current policy regarding the problem. As Greece goes, so goes the Dow seems to be the slogan of the day.

BillyWayne,I count you as a good friend and you and I both understand the rule of our profession that you battle hard in the courtroom, but never take it personally. I don't begrudge you or any of our fellow posters a differing view than my own on political matters. Just believe that they have no place in a conversation about Spider football, basketball or other sports. I don't recall you ever getting off topic on here. Just as we discuss sport's topics on those boards topics, let's argue politics here. Greece? Don't know much to start with....time I learned.
 
Re: GREECE

was just pulling your leg T, but, don't look at just greece, italy, spain, portugal are all in deep, deep trouble and not sure just printing money, which is what they keep doing, like we are doing here, is, at the end of the day, going to pull them out of the fire. the eropean banks who get the "funny money" keep buying the soverein debt of those countries which means that the banks are going to go down the tube with them. they just keep doing the wrong things over and over again instead of standing tall and doing the right, though painful, thing.
 
Re: GREECE

So, despite the old John Travolta song, "Greece" ain't the word by any spelling. Most of the arguments among the pols deal with spending vs taxing...outflow vs income. The Dems seem to think the answer should be requiring the wealthy(incomes above $250,000) to pay at a higher rate on that portion of their incme; the GOPs seem to think that the answer should be reducing spending on entitlements such as health care, social security, disability income, etc. Having never worked in this aspect of government, my knowledge is limited to the conversations I had with the families of exchage students who lived with us for a year each. We had kids from Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Columbia and Brazil and got to know their families pretty well. The Swedish girl's Dad was a successful attorney in private practice. The Columbian kid's Dad was a government attorney in Calli. The Finnish family owned a chain of department stores. the Danish boy's Mom was a psychiatrist, his Dad had never married the Mom and long since moved on. The Brazilian family owned a large company that made recaps for tractor trailer tires. I don't know the tax rates in the South American countries, but know that personal rates are much higher in Scandavia than here. For a study, I'll take these five countries and add Germany, France, Greece and Italy and research the tax rates and employment figures, health care benefits and retirement benefits. This will take a while, but I'll try to have figures for them and us by next week. Our government has had the additional expense of being at war for a long time. I'll also look at military budgets, but would not know how to analysize this data. I'm no expert on these matters, but I'll try to find accurate figures and we can talk about "Great Taste/Less Filling" aspects of their budgets.
 
Re: GREECE

the point is no matter how much we raise taxes, it will not cover our spending. we must get spending under control, not just the social safety net stuff but all aspects, get out of some things we do not need to do, etc., etc. and that is on levels, local, state, federal. to dems taxing is a fairness issue to me it should be common sense and not emotional. do i feel better if a rich person pays more taxes than i do, could care less and cannot figure why others feel good by punishing someone else. the bottom line is revenue and not tax rates. put our business in a position where they want to do business here not in other countries, put people back to work and revenue will increase without touching tax rates.
 
T, when you look at tax rates you need to look at the actual rate and the implied rate. For example in the US you could be in the highest tax bracket, but after deductions you could only have to pay around 20%. That 15% difference (or 43% decrease)does not seem like much but I would be willing to bet that is significant compared to other countries. Just one deduction example we allow people to write off interest on the primary and secondary home mortgage, no deduction is allowed in Canada.

You should add Canada to the mix of countries you review. It is the one country in the entire world that closest resembles the US in many non-political factors.

The magazine The Economist might have much of that data already gathered.
 
Thanks, 97. I had considered deductions, but don't know enough to set up a fairness comparison formula yet. Canada would be a good addition. I'm working everyday this week and coming home with melted brains. Will wait for the weekend to put any real energy into this. I don't know whether someone as unsophisticated as me can produce viable comparisons, but I'm gonna take a shot just for my own education.
 
why not drop fairness, if you really want fair, then a flat tax, where all citizens paid the same rate, would accomplish that. we need to increase revenues and not worry about tax rates. first though, we need to cut spending, get it under control because taxing rich people more would not get our budget straight. we can still be a powerhouse but we need to quit punishing achievers and business. create an environment where entrepreneurs and business want to do their thing right here and then we will get back to full employment and thus more revenue.
This post was edited on 5/22 9:49 PM by WebSpinner
 
agree with that and think we do prosecute them but what about the legislators who really initiated this whole financial mess who walk around scott-free, they should have to pay as well but they will leave, barney frank, for example and go on with their life.
 
JPMorgan, Wall Street and Facebook fiddle while Eric Cantor and friends on both sides of the aisle gut FrankDodd wall street reform. Where is Cantor's outrage? Oh, denying help to his earthquake constituents in Louisa County while sending $$ to Israel.

Ohhhh and just as like "I'll Have Another" wins again, my edit:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/accidentally-released-and-incredibly-embarrassing-documents-show-how-goldman-et-al-engaged-in-naked-short-selling-20120515?link=mostpopular1


This post was edited on 5/23 9:21 AM by Anachnoid

Very good journalist
 
we are in the mess we are in because of fannie, freddie, threats to bankers by legislators to do stupid things because the govt backed all of that. those folks, on either side of the aisle, should have to stand up and be investigated and pay for it. if a financial institution does stupid things, they pay for it and the govt should not bail them out, period!
 
Spinner, the only way to have a true flat tax is to eliminate all deductions and credits and have a singular rate for all types of revenues. First this is not as simple as it sounds for many reasons without getting into the Code. Second embedded in the deductions and credits indirectly stand many PACs that would stand to loose something significant that would cause them to fight the change. The first and best example would be the loss of the deduction on interest of home mortgages. The housing industry top to bottom would flip out.

I am neither for nor against the flat tax because it will, as close to, never happen.
 
97, am not favoring flat either only saying to those who seek so-called fairness, in their own minds, that it would be the only fair way to do it and include the near 50% of citizen who now pay -0- income tax.
 
of course you would never get legislators to agree on anything and even if voted in, they would never agree on what % and then when and how that % could be changed. a pipe dream at best.
 
And while we're at it...

"'According to Susan Allen, wife of former Virginia Senator George Allen, the passing of President Obama’s health care reform bill ? commonly known as “Obamacare” to its detractors ? is “one of the worst things that could have happened in our country.'"

Really Ms. Macaca, why is that? Have any specifics? But dont worry, I'm starting to come around and think the President didnt go far enough. He needed to get the fat, bloated insurance companies straight in his cross-hairs.
 
well they had to pass it in the middle of the night, without a vote and a majority of americans did not want it, thus the way they had to enact it even though the dems had a majority in both houses and the presidency....should tell you something. sure the govt is much better than the private sector in everything....clueless.
 
As Benjamin Franklin said: "The more public provisions made for the poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer." Not selling the t-shirt linked below but using it for illustration of where we are in the U.S. today.

Ineptocracy
 
Years ago, I founded the Stupidist Party. Our motto, "Just say No! to stupidity."
Adm-thought you'd follow up with fish-teach to fish analogy.
 
noid - how did you read my mind? When I am on my morning run I have lots of time to think. Here are two more, one of which your legal mind already encompassed - "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life." Here is the other: "Give a man a hand up, not a hand out." You know me so well it is scary....... Yes it can be a fine line between helping those who need help and giving so much it is a disincentive. In the church always took the approach of had rather be taken advantage of then trying to determine the "worthy" poor. The exception was the scammers who went to every church in the community and word would get around about them.
 
we have or had the best healthcare in the world and don't let anyone tell you different. what we needed was some reform to the insurance side of it not a total takeover by the govt which is the most inefficient, wasteful entity known to mankind. i love our govt, just don't think it is the problem solver for everyone's deals and it needs to stick to what it was created for and let the europeans sink in the way they wish to do things, just leave us out of it. unfortunately, we have too many legislators, who wish to emulate those failing formulas. for example when the powers that be in europe investigated greece's financial deal and came back with recommendations, the first one was, deep six your national healthcare program and here we are, drowning in debt, adding to it at the tune of $1.5 trillion this year alone and we are implementing a national healthcare program.....what is wrong with this picture?
 
"That government is best which governs least." Variously attributed to Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, or Henry David Thoreau. Government as a share of GDP or GNP is way too large and growing.
 
Re: Flat tax... The problem in your simple definition of gross income is that it is too simple. I would love for for it to be simeple but there are too many accountants and lawyers that would find loopholes. Would that mean you could not deduct the cost basis of the stock, house, etc. you sold? Just as people have found ways around the current tax system people would find ways around the definition of gross income.
 
For those of us who had Carle Davis, you never forget......"Gain from whatever source derived."
and
Gen'l Homer-best medical care available. Healthcare is the issue. I feel like a personal ATM for the insurance company. We're trying to reduce our premium with a company we've been with for 24 years and they are treating us like a pariah. I'm ready to throw up my hands and go uninsured. If anyone can recommend a health insurance broker in Richmond please do so.
This post was edited on 5/24 12:12 PM by Anachnoid
 
Not to defend the insurance industry, but when you insure all of those with pre-existing conditions, costs go up. When you have physicians practicing defensive medicine and ordering every test in the book to avoid the high cost of liability, costs go up. (Where is Tort Reform?)When you reduce the payments to physicians for Medicaid/Medicare patients, physicians won't take them on as patients. When you provide healthcare for millions of new patients with the continuing decrease in the number of physicians, waiting times increase. The English form of healthcare is a disaster. This is not my opinion, but the opinion of a British physician friend of mine who is leaving his practice. Obamacare will add billions in cost to the healthcare system. It will be a disaster. Healthcare needed reform, not a complete makeover. It will be very interesting to see what the Supreme Court thinks of the mandate. If they allow it, hold onto your wallets because the government will then have carte blanche to dictate to all of us what we have to purchase and when. The overall issue is that of "unintended consequences." This program is rife with them.
 
Well then where are the alternatives except NOOOOOOOO to Obamacare? I was reminded the other day by one older that originally there was Major Medical insurance and then you paid for everything else. Hmmmm, I smell money said the insurance companies and here we go.
 
obamacare should have never seen the light of day, majority was against it and even the dems were afraid to vote for it so they did not even reconcile and vote on it, was stuffed down the country's throat and now it is almost impossible to stop it. we needed reform, we got govt healthcare or at least it is on its way. if you think ins companies are bad, you are in for a rude awakening when bureaucrats determine, micromanage your care, etc. etc.
 
Clinton tried to reform it in '92 and it was defeated. Then shrub preferred to play guns and so here we are back again. Its obviously a problem. Heck, I can certainly state so from my own experiences and we are fortunately a healthy family. And yes, I think insurance companies are bad. I have read of a small movement among doctors who dont accept any form of insurance and are very happy.
 
I had recent thoughts about the medical/insurance industry. There is no easy answer. The couple of thoughts I had were:
1) Introduce tort reform to limit medical malpractice and costs going to lawyers and at the same time make it easier (maybe a special court or arbitrator).
2) Improve education to the consumer of the insurance to help them understand the costs of use. ER abuse is rampant for many employers and that is 100% on education. That cost abuse trickles down to everyone.
3) Improve the drug patent process
4) Improve Americas eating habits. We have got to be one of the fatest countries in the world and that kills medical costs.
 
the socialist dems for decades have wanted national healthcare, headed by ted kennedy. must admit there is a difference between reform, which most americans desire and national healthcare which the govt socialists desire. again, you may think ins companies are bad but the govt doing this, absolutely terrible which makes bad, really good.
 
Tort reform? Now thats a novel 'socialist' idea. Give the deep pockets greater protection to allow themselves to better 'weigh risk as a known cost of doing business' instead of an unknown amount to hopefully prevent an atrocious action. Both sides have lawyers and usually the deep pockets also have numbers. Just as capitalism, in theory, rewards those taking the risk of their idea into fruition, no limits rewards attorneys willing to take the risk of aggrieved parties...and remember, a jury is of our peers. May I suggest you read A Civil Action (also a movie with John Travolta). No one desires a poor outcome in any medical procedure but it happens. "The risk of this procedure having a bad outcome is X%." Thats informed consent with all on the medical team taking appropriate action all the way through. When one of the team makes a mistake the risk to the patient is 100%. Would you want limits on your ability to be compensated with money that cant fix the problem? In Va we have the birth injury fund which may be more of what you have in mind, but it is not without controversy.
 
Spinner if you knew how difficult it is to get a Med-mal case to trial in VA, and then knew there were caps on any award you would realize tort reform is not the real solution in VA. Perhaps other states, but VA addressed the issue years ago. Problem is insurance companies look at profits nationally. Sure there's risk when you have a "procedure" and the patient must realize that, but risk should not be incompetance. I don't believe Obamacare is the solution but the system is busted. Talked to a Dr. friend the other day, he said that it cost him $29 per visit in overhead, but to get the $29 he had to charge $95 to have insurance pay the $29. So who pays the $95, those without insurance, the ones least likely to be able to afford it. On another point, when someone does not have insurance and cannot pay, they are not refused treatment, nor should they be, but don't you agree taxpayers pay for that now? The problem is we have so many "vested" interests we have been unable to have a real healthy discussion on how to "fix" the system. That's one thing I will applaud Obamcare for, people are finally talking about what can be fixed. Obamacare is the gun to the head. I'm not n favor of Obamacare, but I hope it keeps the pressure on until we get a true fix.
 
tort reform never came out of my mouth although probably a good idea. should not incompetence be taken care of in the licensing part of being a medical doc, don't just license anyone. the prob is the train has departred the station, we are headed to socialized medicine and that is so not the answer. they could have reformed the deal but those in power took it and screwed it despite the people not wanting it. they did not even want to vote on it and have their names associated with it. glad am old and will not feel the impact of what these people have done to us but know my kids and grandkids will. my daughter who knows nothing about politics said to me last night that the obamacare act will place a 3% tax on all home sold in the country, not sure if true, they have their house on the market and guess a realtor or someone told them that. that is just the start of how much this is going to cost plus be micromanaged by pinheads.
 
Guys, I have been working everyday this week and have come home so tired that I had no energy to do any research that could add to this discussion. Thank you all for an interesting, informative and civil discussion. I have to go out of town this afternoon, so will not be able to get to work on research until tomorrow. My research will not be done to prove a point as I don't know what the results will show, but I will try to get enough info on tax plans, medical/ retirement programs and deficits in a variety of countries to be able to begin a discussion of the models. The one thing on which we all agree is the perilous nature of these times. I don't see solutions happening if our representatives refuse to sit down together and have a conversation like the one I have just finished reading. There will be no easy answers, but the folks in our conversation are all bright and capable of fair analogy and informed suggestions.
 
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