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2022-2023 Season outlook

Dobbins was always legit - it was while at UR that Beilein discovered his love of the 1-3-1 zone because he could put Dobbins at the top and Dobbins would basically massively disrupt the other team's sets at the point of attack bc he could guard anyone up there. Beilein first went to that zone only because he had TD to put there.
 
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Dobbins was always legit - it was while at UR that Beilein discovered his love of the 1-3-1 zone because he could put Dobbins at the top and Dobbins would basically massively disrupt the other team's sets at the point of attack bc he could guard anyone up there. Beilein first went to that zone only because he had TD to put there.
can't remember ... who played the bottom of that 1-3-1?
 
Well stated. Some of this is the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. Regardless of some of the other posts & the explanations or theories advanced, CM has regularly pulled bench players almost immediately after an error. Maybe this is his teachable technique or short term means to preventing longer term problems, but sometimes isn't it better to let a player play through situations so to prevent being afraid of being pulled immediately? It seems this would defeat a player's confidence. I guess there are 2 schools of thought here, and Mooney sides with the "yank em off the court immediately".
Maybe, but at some point if you keep making mistakes, just stop making immediate mistakes if you want more playing time. But, as I said earlier, it is usually the guys who are barely part of the rotation who get a quick hook, and I get this. If anyone's confidence is shot by a quick hook, either get better and stop making so many mistakes, or be okay enough mentally where a quick hook won't affect you the next time you get a chance.
 
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That^ is the mentality of an armchair coach who has no idea how the psyche of an athlete works and how difficult it is to not only build up and have confidence but then to keep it. It really is laughable to think that is how anything works at anything above low-level IM quality athletics
 
Maybe, but at some point if you keep making mistakes, just stop making immediate mistakes if you want more playing time. But, as I said earlier, it is usually the guys who are barely part of the rotation who get a quick hook, and I get this. If anyone's confidence is shot by a quick hook, either get better and stop making so many mistakes, or be okay enough mentally where a quick hook won't affect you the next time you get a chance.
Except the Mooney quick hook is usually based upon a singular mistake; not "so many mistakes" as you stated.
 
That^ is the mentality of an armchair coach who has no idea how the psyche of an athlete works and how difficult it is to not only build up and have confidence but then to keep it. It really is laughable to think that is how anything works at anything above low-level IM quality athletics
Well said Ply…todays players or high level players in general don’t operate that way. And if that is what a coach does(quick hook), for me he has to do it for all players 🤷🏼‍♂️ Coach isn’t the only one who does this. Someone mentioned that starters don’t get the same courtesy…I tend to agree. Also it isn’t same mistakes it’s usually one mistake and player a is subbed out
 
It's a weird situation this year for Mooney's quick hook though. Again I've only been following since 2014 so I might not have full context, but when Mooney pulled a guy, it was usually because there was an established "Mooney GuyTM" waiting in the wings. Grant didn't get pulled as much because what were we going to do, go with Matt at the 5? Gilly didn't get pulled because who was going to go in and do better? Meanwhile if Dji or Wilson made a mistake, we could just sub Goose and Gilly back in to go with his preferred lineup. If Sal made a mistake, just put in Nate or Matt.

I don't think he has the same luxury this year. Even if he loves Goose, Matt and Tyler, he's going to have to let guys make mistakes this year. I'd be surprised if he rides a returner that's anyone other Tyler and maybe Goose more than 32+ minutes this year, so unless he just constantly makes subs, I can't see pulling guys being quite as much of an issue. Maybe he falls in love with a new guy, but that'd be big minutes to play for someone just learning how the team plays.
 
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It's a weird situation this year for Mooney's quick hook though. Again I've only been following since 2014 so I might not have full context, but when Mooney pulled a guy, it was usually because there was an established "Mooney GuyTM" waiting in the wings. Grant didn't get pulled as much because what were we going to do, go with Matt at the 5? Gilly didn't get pulled because who was going to go in and do better? Meanwhile if Dji or Wilson made a mistake, we could just sub Goose and Gilly back in to go with his preferred lineup. If Sal made a mistake, just put in Nate or Matt.

I don't think he has the same luxury this year. Even if he loves Goose, Matt and Tyler, he's going to have to let guys make mistakes this year. I'd be surprised if he rides a returner that's anyone other Tyler and maybe Goose more than 32+ minutes this year, so unless he just constantly makes subs, I can't see pulling guys being quite as much of an issue. Maybe he falls in love with a new guy, but that'd be big minutes to play for someone just learning how the team plays.
Agreed. We have to let young guys play through some mistakes if possible. The guys who who didn’t get many min last yr were always looking over their shoulder to see if they were coming out and that absolutely affected those guys. It’s not something you can simply shake off if you know you’re coming out at the 1st mistake.
 
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a lot of times a bench guy is only going to get a short run no matter what. the fact that he makes a mistake and gets pulled doesn't mean it was due to the mistake. he may have been coming out anyway.

we'll complain on here that he was pulled after a mistake, just like we'll complain on here if he's pulled after making a good play. the board always loves the bench guys.
 
...or does it lead to MORE quick hooks for those same reasons? If he isn't beholden to many players, and all five starters make some dumb decisions, why not just put in five other guys and see how they do, for example? Will be interesting to follow his approach.
 
a lot of times a bench guy is only going to get a short run no matter what. the fact that he makes a mistake and gets pulled doesn't mean it was due to the mistake. he may have been coming out anyway.

we'll complain on here that he was pulled after a mistake, just like we'll complain on here if he's pulled after making a good play. the board always loves the bench guys.
Fair
 
...or does it lead to MORE quick hooks for those same reasons? If he isn't beholden to many players, and all five starters make some dumb decisions, why not just put in five other guys and see how they do, for example? Will be interesting to follow his approach.
Mooney excitedly watching the Stanley Cup Finals drawing up 5 man substitution patterns every 2 minutes, should be good.
 
...or does it lead to MORE quick hooks for those same reasons? If he isn't beholden to many players, and all five starters make some dumb decisions, why not just put in five other guys and see how they do, for example? Will be interesting to follow his approach.
This is kinda my thing too. Sman has solid points too but I think starters have to be pulled too for certain mistakes. There were times last season where a couple of vets made bad Fr like mistakes and had no consequence. They do deserve a little more leeway I think.
 
a lot of times a bench guy is only going to get a short run no matter what. the fact that he makes a mistake and gets pulled doesn't mean it was due to the mistake. he may have been coming out anyway.

we'll complain on here that he was pulled after a mistake, just like we'll complain on here if he's pulled after making a good play. the board always loves the bench guys.
I've watched Mooney for 17 or however many years. When a bench player gets yanked immediately following a mistake, it's cause & effect. I have season tickets & told my wife plenty of times this year that player "xyz" is coming out immediately following a single mistake, and Mooney delivered - just as expected.
 
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We also don't see practice everyday. So if a guy is struggling in practice or maybe dogging it a little bit and then has the quick mistake when he finally gets into the game, we might view it as a quick hook when in reality there's more to it.
 
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I've watched Mooney for 17 or however many years. When a bench player gets yanked immediately following a mistake, it's cause & effect. I have season tickets & told my wife plenty of times this years that player "xyz" is coming out immediately following a single mistake, and Mooney delivered - just as expected.
but not starters, right?
I believe you win the job in prior games and in prior practices. you've earned it because you've proven you're the best on the team at your position. so you get more leeway for a mistake in a game.
bench players haven't necessarily earned that leeway.
 
but not starters, right?
I believe you win the job in prior games and in prior practices. you've earned it because you've proven you're the best on the team at your position. so you get more leeway for a mistake in a game.
bench players haven't necessarily earned that leeway.
Agree - not starters. CM handles them differently.

However we've pretty much established that he treats starters and bench players with different standards, and I'm not going to argue one way or the other on that. It's just fact.

However, this issue seems to have become a circular discussion due to the above as well as the "confidence ramifications" of bench players some of us have addressed.
 
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We also don't see practice everyday. So if a guy is struggling in practice or maybe dogging it a little bit and then has the quick mistake when he finally gets into the game, we might view it as a quick hook when in reality there's more to it.
🎯 There is always more to it generally. Still does’nt mean we as fans like it. I didn’t like it when it happened. But some posters on here…not you, live in alternate universe when it comes to college basketball and what they think they know. about 🕷🏀 But that’s expected unless you are tied directly in. It’s what we do…a lot on here say this is Coach’s philosophy & y’all have seen it more than me so it probably will be similar going forward.
 
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1st wrkouts today with everyone on campus except Goose who went home for summer.
Interesting to me that Goose went home for the summer. The most important thing to me is team chemistry and Goose not being there may be the only thing that keeps him out of the starting lineup. Granted he knows the “system” and has started lots of games for CM so perhaps he is safe no matter what, but perhaps a glimmer of hope for others.

…… I think Goose is a terrific 6th man. and I get that Goose likely starts over Roche or Bigelow. but that wouldn't be my call.
I agree with others that a 6th man brings offense to the court as compared to D, which doesn’t bring Goose to mind for me. Roche seems like a better fit for that role based on what I see as the best 6th man.

As far as what I want to see, I want to see as many players as possible in the OOC schedule. I want to see both Dread and Noyes. They have been in the program, so how can they not get some run.
 
🎯 There is always more to it generally. Still does’nt mean we as fans like it. I didn’t like it when it happened. But some posters on here…not you, live in alternate universe when it comes to college basketball and what they think they know. about 🕷🏀 But that’s expected unless you are tied directly in. It’s what we do…a lot on here say this is Coach’s philosophy & y’all have seen it more than me so it probably will be similar going forward.
Agree.

We should bookmark this thread and revisit next fall / winter. If there were betting odds, I'd lay down $1000 on the pattern continuing. And then I'd treat everybody here to a beer.
 
Interesting to me that Goose went home for the summer. The most important thing to me is team chemistry and Goose not being there may be the only thing that keeps him out of the starting lineup. Granted he knows the “system” and has started lots of games for CM so perhaps he is safe no matter what, but perhaps a glimmer of hope for others.


I agree with others that a 6th man brings offense to the court as compared to D, which doesn’t bring Goose to mind for me. Roche seems like a better fit for that role based on what I see as the best 6th man.

As far as what I want to see, I want to see as many players as possible in the OOC schedule. I want to see both Dread and Noyes. They have been in the program, so how can they not get some run.
He will be back before the end of summer from what I understand. No worries there
 
Agree.

We should bookmark this thread and revisit next fall / winter. If there were betting odds, I'd lay down $1000 on the pattern continuing. And then I'd treat everybody here to a beer.
Always up for a nice cold beverage 😄🍻
 
However, this issue seems to have become a circular discussion due to the above as well as the "confidence ramifications" of bench players some of us have addressed.
we're only going to play maybe 9 of 13 scholarshipped players. 4 guys aren't even getting the chance to get the quick hook. are you as concerned with their confidence?

quick hooks and not getting in at all are a part of college athletics. this isn't rec. players fight through and become mentally tough. or they don't.
 
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I agree with others that a 6th man brings offense to the court as compared to D, which doesn’t bring Goose to mind for me. Roche seems like a better fit for that role based on what I see as the best 6th man.
Roche hit 110 3's and hit 40% because he played 36 mpg. chances are he'll be a lot less effective coming in cold off the bench. but who knows. some guys can do that.

we'll see if he can play.
 
we're only going to play maybe 9 of 13 scholarshipped players. 4 guys aren't even getting the chance to get the quick hook. are you as concerned with their confidence?

quick hooks and not getting in at all are a part of college athletics. this isn't rec. players fight through and become mentally tough. or they don't.
The confidence issue pertaining to players that don't play is not based upon the quick hook. That's another discussion (confidence or lack of from not seeing anything more than mop up minutes / going many games w/out playing). Their situation is separate and distinct from role players who actually see court time.

I'll say this. I've watched a significant amt of college basketball in my lifetime, and I'd say CM has one of the quickest hooks I've seen.
 
Regarding the quick hook, I think the unspoken consideration is that you’re pullling a guy for a mistake without concern for what he might contribute if he stayed in.

Best players generally play but I don’t think that means we are maximizing our potential. I have a feeling for example that we may have better options at the 2 than Gus, but we don’t see enough of them to get into game flow to ever tell.

it’s not an easy decision for coach but one i wish he was a bit more lenient about. Perhaps a two mistake rule…
 
Goose, Grace, and Burton are locks to start game #1.....after that anything is possible.
 
based on Mooney's tendancies or because you think they're just better than everyone else?
I think Goose and Burton get there by being 2 of our top players. Grace is maybe our best big man, maybe not, but Mooney is loyal, and he get the chance to prove he is the guy in game 1.
 
I don’t think either goose or grace are locks. Grace is really a 5 that CM has played at forward I think mostly due to lack of bench options. I think he’ll play a decent amount but not sure he starts or is all of a sudden major minutes guy.

goose is harder to predict. Lots of guys will be vying for time at SG and we know he’s not a shooter. So while D is valued, it feels like CM values a reasonable balance between D and 3pt threat. None of the active guys last year fit that balance either because they were all offensive or all defense for the most part. If roche shows even decent defense I’d be surprised if he doesn’t see a lot of floor time.
 
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Maybe, but at some point if you keep making mistakes, just stop making immediate mistakes if you want more playing time. But, as I said earlier, it is usually the guys who are barely part of the rotation who get a quick hook, and I get this. If anyone's confidence is shot by a quick hook, either get better and stop making so many mistakes, or be okay enough mentally where a quick hook won't affect you the next time you get a chance.
Have you ever played sports and been subbed out for a single error? Are you honest enough to admit it can affect your comfort level and how loose you play? If you think mentally it is easy to work through, it is not. Ask Tyler Burton and see his expression when he was given the heave ho the first couple years. If you are not shown signs of confidence by the coach by staying in past your mistake , your mental and physical state will become a tighter and tighter noose. In
the NIT there was no choice but to play his bench more and those guys did great due to fact they knew he had no choice and they played looser.
 
Tony Dobbins is one of the most under appreciated Spiders in school history. People forget he was originally recruited to be an offensive player in John Beilein's system and when Wainright came in put in the work to become the best defender I have ever seen put on a Spider uniform. Had he not had a wardrobe malfunction against Wisconsin in the NCAAs, probably win that game. He had shut down top 5 draft pick Devin Harris up until that point.

You've heard us gush about his defense here but the dude could be a killer when he wanted to. Fast forward to about 4:25 if you want to see his game winner vs. Kansas. I still remembering jumping so high in my room I hit my head on the ceiling fan when he hit that shot jumping from the couch. He would be a starter on any of my all-time Spider teams since I have been following the team (1995).

Thanks for the video. Sweet memories!
 
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Have you ever played sports and been subbed out for a single error? Are you honest enough to admit it can affect your comfort level and how loose you play? If you think mentally it is easy to work through, it is not. Ask Tyler Burton and see his expression when he was given the heave ho the first couple years. If you are not shown signs of confidence by the coach by staying in past your mistake , your mental and physical state will become a tighter and tighter noose. In
the NIT there was no choice but to play his bench more and those guys did great due to fact they knew he had no choice and they played looser.
Perfectly said 👏🏼👏🏼
 
Sound reasoning…who would you say or think is our 2nd best defender? I know there are some that put heavy value in offense and the 3pt shot. That’s fair we have to score more points to win. I’m just a big defensive guy personally. When I coached, you had to defend up top especially. One of our issues since we been here is just that. Get beat up top, the help is slow or no where to be found and then gets us into foul trouble or giving up easy buckets. Who do we have on the roster that can help Goose and be those other solid defenders? I think it’s Goose as number 1 w/o a doubt. What about the RS Fr, where any of them solid defenders or known as such in HS? I don’t care what coach WILL do I’m just curious as to your thoughts. Ex: Zay last yr was a very good defender on and off ball but we sacrificed some offense & down the stretch didn’t make great offensive decisions but can’t take away the big 3 he hit end of season. I personally think we have a few guys that can fulfill that role and be a better offensive weapon. Thoughts?
Zay was a very bad off ball defender. Probably one of our worst
 
Have you ever played sports and been subbed out for a single error? Are you honest enough to admit it can affect your comfort level and how loose you play? If you think mentally it is easy to work through, it is not. Ask Tyler Burton and see his expression when he was given the heave ho the first couple years. If you are not shown signs of confidence by the coach by staying in past your mistake , your mental and physical state will become a tighter and tighter noose. In
the NIT there was no choice but to play his bench more and those guys did great due to fact they knew he had no choice and they played looser.
No those guys did better because they played teams who weren’t great? Toledo is one of the worst defensive teams in the country. Tyler Burton played the 7th most minutes as a freshman. He got more confident because he got better! Bench players know if you don’t produce you’re going to come out? It’s how sports work. You don’t get as much leeway because you clearly haven’t proven you deserve to be on the court more than the starters..
 
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a lot of times a bench guy is only going to get a short run no matter what. the fact that he makes a mistake and gets pulled doesn't mean it was due to the mistake. he may have been coming out anyway.

we'll complain on here that he was pulled after a mistake, just like we'll complain on here if he's pulled after making a good play. the board always loves the bench guys.
Well said. That is what I said earlier. I very much agree.
 
No those guys did better because they played teams who weren’t great? Toledo is one of the worst defensive teams in the country. Tyler Burton played the 7th most minutes as a freshman. He got more confident because he got better! Bench players know if you don’t produce you’re going to come out? It’s how sports work. You don’t get as much leeway because you clearly haven’t proven you deserve to be on the court more than the starters..
Def disagree. Whats producing? Scoring only?? bc if that’s your belief you prob need to watch more basketball. Your last statement is super shallow thinking but ok cool.
 
Have you ever played sports and been subbed out for a single error? Are you honest enough to admit it can affect your comfort level and how loose you play? If you think mentally it is easy to work through, it is not. Ask Tyler Burton and see his expression when he was given the heave ho the first couple years. If you are not shown signs of confidence by the coach by staying in past your mistake , your mental and physical state will become a tighter and tighter noose. In
the NIT there was no choice but to play his bench more and those guys did great due to fact they knew he had no choice and they played looser.

Have you ever played sports and been subbed out for a single error? Are you honest enough to admit it can affect your comfort level and how loose you play? If you think mentally it is easy to work through, it is not. Ask Tyler Burton and see his expression when he was given the heave ho the first couple years. If you are not shown signs of confidence by the coach by staying in past your mistake , your mental and physical state will become a tighter and tighter noose. In
the NIT there was no choice but to play his bench more and those guys did great due to fact they knew he had no choice and they played loose

Have you ever played sports and been subbed out for a single error? Are you honest enough to admit it can affect your comfort level and how loose you play? If you think mentally it is easy to work through, it is not. Ask Tyler Burton and see his expression when he was given the heave ho the first couple years. If you are not shown signs of confidence by the coach by staying in past your mistake , your mental and physical state will become a tighter and tighter noose. In
the NIT there was no choice but to play his bench more and those guys did great due to fact they knew he had no choice and they played looser.
Are you really using Tyler as an example to make your point? LOL. How did Tyler turn out? And, I'm still trying to figure out why so many on here think everyone did great in the NIT a couple years ago. We won one game. Did Dji and Wilson do a bunch of great things I didn't see? And, yes, I played sports. Coached it too.
 
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