My point about offers not mattering is there are just too many examples of hits and misses to make that a factor in judging someone. Every team, power schools included, will have guys on scholarship who rarely play. Isn't it possible Dji might not have seen the floor had he stayed at Wake, and if so, does the Wake offer really mean that much as far as a tell about a guy? But, I do get what you say about they had to see something, so of course, Dji has talent and showed them something. Look at McCorkle, who you know well. It doesn't get much better than having a UVA offer. Shoot, before we got our transfers, I wanted him here because he can shoot it. But, I would rather have Roche and Bigelow, neither of which had any big time offers. Meanwhile, McCorkle transferred and picked Wofford over William and Mary. Before we added our transfers, I felt he could have helped us. Now, I doubt he would have played much. So, bottom line, his UVA offer means nothing.
2022-2023 Season outlook
- Thread starter SpiderDad75
- Start date
I don't mind the push-back.
Here's my reasoning for saying Goose could be an odd man out come February. I expect the needs on the 2022-23 team to be very different than the needs on the 2021-22 team. We did not need him to score, basically at all. Any offense he provided was gravy. This coming year, I think we will need offense from that second guard spot. And Goose has not shown that he can consistently make a jump shot, even when wide open (jumper is too flat). Please note that I'm not inserting Dji for Goose at the 2 guard position. I think it will be Dji and Nelson at the PG spot. But if Goose isn't making shots, then he's mostly there for his defense. That was fine for last year -- and needed -- but I don't know if that will be the same for this year. It might, but it might not.
Here's my reasoning for saying Goose could be an odd man out come February. I expect the needs on the 2022-23 team to be very different than the needs on the 2021-22 team. We did not need him to score, basically at all. Any offense he provided was gravy. This coming year, I think we will need offense from that second guard spot. And Goose has not shown that he can consistently make a jump shot, even when wide open (jumper is too flat). Please note that I'm not inserting Dji for Goose at the 2 guard position. I think it will be Dji and Nelson at the PG spot. But if Goose isn't making shots, then he's mostly there for his defense. That was fine for last year -- and needed -- but I don't know if that will be the same for this year. It might, but it might not.
All great points…had the staff not changed at Wake yes Dji would have played his Fr year. We were told as much from the staff. McCorkle prob not a good example bc there were other things going on. As with a lot of players. A lot goes on guys that general public doesn’t know about. But I get your meaning. I def like Roche and Bigelow much better than C. I also get bc you guys haven’t see much of him I mean he was behind 6 & 5 yr guys. I believe and still believe you are what recruits you…just like you are what you can guard. Guys don’t go to schools to sit. Now some understand their role and some don’t and great staffs will let that recruit know how they will use them. I apologize for derailing this thread, that wasn’t my intent. Just wanted fun lineups and debate it a bit.
Fair points but Moon loves Goose and honestly Goose is a winning player. He does the small things - extra pass, deflection on defense, hard cuts to hoop, turn corner off bounce - that make the offense workable. I foresee almost no scenario outside injury where he is not in the rotation, and heavily.
With the transfer additions and expectations for other returning players in the rotation, we don't need 11-12 ppg from Goose, we need about 7-8. This is one of the reasons I like Tyler at the 4 in a lot of spells, to be able to throw Roche, Bigelow, Crabtree in there at the same time as Tyler and Goose for additional offense and shooting.
1 and 5 position scoring is also a factor in the above, but if we're not scoring a good amount from those positions, honestly we probably still want Goose in there because it means we have to win games in the low 60s.
With the transfer additions and expectations for other returning players in the rotation, we don't need 11-12 ppg from Goose, we need about 7-8. This is one of the reasons I like Tyler at the 4 in a lot of spells, to be able to throw Roche, Bigelow, Crabtree in there at the same time as Tyler and Goose for additional offense and shooting.
1 and 5 position scoring is also a factor in the above, but if we're not scoring a good amount from those positions, honestly we probably still want Goose in there because it means we have to win games in the low 60s.
I get the theory you’re advancing, and it does make sense in print. I’m just not sure CM will see it that way. It may get old, but Goose has more than proven his value, and if I’m a betting man, I’d bet Goose gets the same minutes next year as he got this year. Me thinks he’s an integral part and significant minutes of the Mooney System version 2022 / 2023.
You are definitely not derailing the thread. This discussion is all part of next season, the thread title. I apologize if I am unfairly attacking Dji here. I just haven't seen him much. Not a lot of high school highlights out there, and not a lot to go on from the last 2 seasons. I feel like I know more about what the others bring, even Nelson with his high school highlights, and I just haven't seen enough from Dji to know what to expect.
All fair…I don’t get upset with things like this. I know what he is capable of and how can I be upset when all you guys have really seen of him is 191 min in a minimal role? I believe he gets his shot this year 🙏🏼for healthy season. I believe in what his coaches have told him, his trainer, and even pro guys. He literally just has to play and everything else will take care of it self. 😀 I think there are a lot of different lineups we can throw out on court this upcoming season and all this waiting is killing me 😂🕷🏀
To start the year, to me it would seem 2 starting spots are certain - Burton at the 3 and Quinn at 5. I think Goose has a leg up at the 2 due to his experience, solid d and Mooney history usually going with the known. At the 4 I'm guessing we start the season with Matt - experience/familiarity like with Goose and I think a little bit of a reward for sticking around for one more year. And I think Nelson at point - familiarity of playing style (small, quick guard) and since we will not be lacking in height in other areas.
My guess/hope of what happens once the season gets going:
Bigelow steadily eats into Grace's minutes - I think even if Matt continues to start we could see Bigelow get as many or more minutes. I love Grace for his growth while here and what he's done for us but in reality Bigelow is a more proven entity and can hopefully be a plus defender and over time be our main guy at the 4. Ideally for me Isaiah gets 30ish minutes at the 4 with Grace getting the other 10 and then backing up Quinn at the 5.
At point guard I think we have two good ones in Bailey and Nelson. My worry is Mooney slots Nelson in for 33 minutes per game and Bailey gets buried or "forgotten". In my dream scenario their time is split pretty evenly early in the year and they both get extended runs so we get a good look at who is best. I also think it would be good to see them play together at times. Ultimately the position should be up for grabs so whoever takes the reins and shows great leadership should win out and get the lions share of the minutes. Even though we don't have much to go by I'm really intrigued by Dji and the prospect of using a tall guard for the first time in forever.
Roche and Crabtree should be good enough to push Goose for minutes and pick up Tyler's minutes any time he is out. Really would like to see Roche come out on fire and force Mooney to eat into Goose's minutes (and I love Andre's game).
Hard to see where Randolph, Noyes, Dread, and Walz will find minutes with what's in front of them at this time. But every season has injuries, guys who step up and surprise, etc. so I hope these guys stay motivated and ready.
My guess/hope of what happens once the season gets going:
Bigelow steadily eats into Grace's minutes - I think even if Matt continues to start we could see Bigelow get as many or more minutes. I love Grace for his growth while here and what he's done for us but in reality Bigelow is a more proven entity and can hopefully be a plus defender and over time be our main guy at the 4. Ideally for me Isaiah gets 30ish minutes at the 4 with Grace getting the other 10 and then backing up Quinn at the 5.
At point guard I think we have two good ones in Bailey and Nelson. My worry is Mooney slots Nelson in for 33 minutes per game and Bailey gets buried or "forgotten". In my dream scenario their time is split pretty evenly early in the year and they both get extended runs so we get a good look at who is best. I also think it would be good to see them play together at times. Ultimately the position should be up for grabs so whoever takes the reins and shows great leadership should win out and get the lions share of the minutes. Even though we don't have much to go by I'm really intrigued by Dji and the prospect of using a tall guard for the first time in forever.
Roche and Crabtree should be good enough to push Goose for minutes and pick up Tyler's minutes any time he is out. Really would like to see Roche come out on fire and force Mooney to eat into Goose's minutes (and I love Andre's game).
Hard to see where Randolph, Noyes, Dread, and Walz will find minutes with what's in front of them at this time. But every season has injuries, guys who step up and surprise, etc. so I hope these guys stay motivated and ready.
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Except the principle is applied unevenly. Think of all the truly dreadful turnovers Grant would commit, throwing the basketball into the stands or forcing a bad bounce pass to a back door cut that was impossibly tight. He rarely got yanked for such plays.
So yes the quick hook exists for bad decisionmaking but it doesn’t apply to everyone or all the time.
You are what recruits you?! So why do so many guys grad transfer up? When they weren’t recruited there out of high school. Why do so many guys transfer down from high majors when they don’t play? Everybody is good in high school so it’s hard to tell what’s going to pan out. You most certainly are not what recruits you and the transfer portal is evidence of that.
I think this is the problem for any assumption we may have. There’s too much uncertainty. Not to say guys aren’t or are good and are going to step up. It’s just that nobody has seen what anybody can do on this level in a major role except for Tyler Burton!
True, but Grant handled the ball every play, made a ton of key plays with the basketball, and was clearly our best big out there, so you have to take a few turnovers with what else he brings. If he got yanked for every bad pass, how often would he then not make the great pass as a result? Just like with Tyler, there has to be exceptions for certain, proven players.
Do you think all coaches are honest with players? Do you think every player has a great experience? Have you been around high level bball bc I have and for a long time. No, everyone is not good in HS and that is absurd to even think. That’s why you have an alternate avenue in aau to play against elite talent. Your opinion is your opinion..cool. But yeah you are what recruits you. Like I said earlier, do coaches miss, absolutely no one is perfect in the recruiting game.
So I get that. Merely noting the “you get the quick hook for turnovers” isn’t consistent, some guys get it, others don’t. It’s not a criticism of CM, other than it perhaps being a bit shortsighted to not give a guy a chance to get into the flow of the game a bit.
No coaches are not honest with players? It’s recruiting. Do what you need to win the battle… making my point that you aren’t what recruits you. If we recruit a talented ACC or B12 quality level player he should start because they are better than the A10, right? So how is it that they don’t come and dominate this level? Simply because you aren’t what recruits you.
I hear you. I think sometimes maybe you plan to give a guy a couple minutes, and maybe that turns into just a minute or less because of sloppy play. That makes sense to me. It's not like super talented part of the rotation guys are sitting after a turnover. Usually, it's the guy who won't see the floor much anyway, so I can see why a coach might have a quick hook with them.
VT….Again there things that go on that don’t have anything to with bball or specifically PT on why people leave their respective programs. Kids are asked or told to get in the portal all over the bball world. But all we see is the social media messages that they have decided to leave & they love their time at place X.
Maybe I didn’t articulate it the way I should but IF all that recruits you is HM or D2 that’s what you are, just like… you are what you can guard(do we want to debate that too) I’m not talking transfers bc there are always misses. I know plenty of college coaches that think this way as well. No, It doesn’t mean you will start those are really shallow ways of thinking. No it doesn’t mean you will dominate and no it doesn’t mean that kids that come to a lesser conf can’t play. We have seen through the years that MM can hang with HM see Iowa game 🤷🏼♂️ My point is more often than not is kids that are recruited to play HM are HM. When comes to rankings, those are a joke. A majority of them are popularity contest. The only truth we should take from those are the National top 25ish. Those are usually elite pro potential guys. Those “scouts” haven’t really seen to many kids out side of top 75ish. Unless you have a 4-5⭐️ kid on your aau team. It is hard to get a D1 scholarship…like 1% hard. To me rankings mean absolutely nothing and certainly bc you have HM or MM offers doesn’t always equate to being a 3-5 star prospect. I know a ton of the guys who do rankings here in NC some are cool but it’s based off of who comes to your event mostly & if you’re Buddy Buddy with them, esp if you aren’t playing in summer for a well known program. I end it with this ex: I have a very close friend whose son RS at a major P5 program this past season. Was told he wouldn’t RS but they did it anyway. Also all he had was P5 offers. He decided to transfer bc he was told too & he wouldn’t play over the guys they just brought in. Enters his name in the portal and only 1 school that comes after him is a low MM type school the rest were all P5. Too me & coaches he’s a HM kid period but he and his family loved that one school that stuck their neck out to recruit this kid. My friends son committed and people around him lost their minds. He did what was best for him. That coach told him as well that he knew he was a HM kid and that initially didn’t see a chance to land him but loved his game and bc. he’s a local kid. Look we can disagree it’s ok, my experiences in this game is different to anyone who hasn’t gone through the process. Unless you’ve been around the recruiting game and the high level aspects of the game, there are some things you might miss on. The google machine isn’t always right and I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong…well maybe I am 😀just kidding, but only to say this has been my experience throughout the last 12-15 yrs.
Not sure how this relates to Sal and Wilson. How could it not be about playing time and basketball with them?Whether they loved it here or not, they were not going to get PT here, and combined with where they transferred to, they are clearly not who recruits them. Sal scored 175 points in 4 years, and would have seen very few minutes this year had he stayed. Wilson scored 112 points in 2 seasons and would have seen very few minutes the rest of his career had he stayed.
So, if all that recruits you are high majors, that's who you are, what about when a few majors, and mostly non majors recruit you, like in Sal's, Wilson's, and even Dji's cases? What are you then?
And, I don't get how you can say you are not talking transfers and there will be misses there, but still say you are who recruits you. Transfers are so common you have to include them in a you are who recruits you debate. You then said more often than not, kids that are recruited high major are high major. Well, that may be true, but there are still hundreds of examples every year of guys that got a high major scholarship who are clearly not high major, which means you are not always who recruits you. Even if a guy doesn't transfer, if he never becomes part of the rotation or plays very little during his time at a high major, was he really a high major guy?
I have experienced the quick hook even in my golf game. But I watched my son in his first two years of D1 soccer get the quick benching after a mistake and without game flow in his muscles. He played scared due to fact he knew he had to play perfect. Personally that is the
primary issue I have with CM. It takes time to learn to play hard yet composed but relaxed. Taking players out early for the wrong matchups on the floor is one thing, but not allowing them to get into the flow of the game due to an error is another. Poor Sal would always make a great move around his man, then step on the baseline, and then be called to the sideline. I loved the last NIT experience due to fact Mooney was forced to play guys more minutes and the fans got a good view of their true capabilities.
Exactly. If you have a HM guy who scores 2 PPG for 4 years and a MM guy who scores 20 PPG for 4 years.. are they still what recruited them? it would suggest that the HM guy is better bc of who recruited him instead of the guy scoring 20 PPG. So I don’t know how you can be what recruits you? You are what you produce any day of the week
Well stated. Some of this is the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. Regardless of some of the other posts & the explanations or theories advanced, CM has regularly pulled bench players almost immediately after an error. Maybe this is his teachable technique or short term means to preventing longer term problems, but sometimes isn't it better to let a player play through situations so to prevent being afraid of being pulled immediately? It seems this would defeat a player's confidence. I guess there are 2 schools of thought here, and Mooney sides with the "yank em off the court immediately".
Nelson, Roche, Burton, Bigelow, Quinn is what I want to see
Goose busts his ass and has made some big plays. yes he was an important starter last year. he's a good defensive player. he finishes drives. but his offense is limited. he can slash but he's not a shooter, scorer or assist guy. and no, I don't believe a non-scorer getting plenty of minutes becomes a scorer out of necessity. we need scoring with this team. I think Goose is a terrific 6th man. and I get that Goose likely starts over Roche or Bigelow. but that wouldn't be my call.
from the little I've seen from Dji, I think his defense is absolutely comparable to Goose. and I think he'll provide more offensively with his handle and passing. Crabtree also plays strong defense. they'll both be very valuable off the bench. but I expect Dji to come in mostly for Nelson, while Crabtree comes in mostly at the 3.
Grace is a solid backup 5. he's not shy offensively. I don't like his defense. I'm hoping Bigelow is better at the 4 on both sides of the ball. doesn't matter who we call the 4 with Burton and Bigelow playing together. they have similar skill sets and both rebound.
Goose busts his ass and has made some big plays. yes he was an important starter last year. he's a good defensive player. he finishes drives. but his offense is limited. he can slash but he's not a shooter, scorer or assist guy. and no, I don't believe a non-scorer getting plenty of minutes becomes a scorer out of necessity. we need scoring with this team. I think Goose is a terrific 6th man. and I get that Goose likely starts over Roche or Bigelow. but that wouldn't be my call.
from the little I've seen from Dji, I think his defense is absolutely comparable to Goose. and I think he'll provide more offensively with his handle and passing. Crabtree also plays strong defense. they'll both be very valuable off the bench. but I expect Dji to come in mostly for Nelson, while Crabtree comes in mostly at the 3.
Grace is a solid backup 5. he's not shy offensively. I don't like his defense. I'm hoping Bigelow is better at the 4 on both sides of the ball. doesn't matter who we call the 4 with Burton and Bigelow playing together. they have similar skill sets and both rebound.
Sound reasoning…who would you say or think is our 2nd best defender? I know there are some that put heavy value in offense and the 3pt shot. That’s fair we have to score more points to win. I’m just a big defensive guy personally. When I coached, you had to defend up top especially. One of our issues since we been here is just that. Get beat up top, the help is slow or no where to be found and then gets us into foul trouble or giving up easy buckets. Who do we have on the roster that can help Goose and be those other solid defenders? I think it’s Goose as number 1 w/o a doubt. What about the RS Fr, where any of them solid defenders or known as such in HS? I don’t care what coach WILL do I’m just curious as to your thoughts. Ex: Zay last yr was a very good defender on and off ball but we sacrificed some offense & down the stretch didn’t make great offensive decisions but can’t take away the big 3 he hit end of season. I personally think we have a few guys that can fulfill that role and be a better offensive weapon. Thoughts?
I'm not as big on Goose's defense as many are here. he's good and probably our best, but he's not like Tony Dobbins good.
I was impressed defensively by Dji and Connor in limited views. really want to get a look at Nelson, Dread, Roche and Bigelow.
and I don't think Burton, particularly in the 2nd half of last year, was nearly as bad defensively as his reputation on this board. his feet are good.
I was impressed defensively by Dji and Connor in limited views. really want to get a look at Nelson, Dread, Roche and Bigelow.
and I don't think Burton, particularly in the 2nd half of last year, was nearly as bad defensively as his reputation on this board. his feet are good.
Tony Dobbins was a decade before my time but Goose certainly seems like the best defender we’ve had since 2012
I think Nelson, Bigelow and Crab also could be very solid. Dji for sure. 1st wrkouts today with everyone on campus except Goose who went home for summer. Dread is very strong guard-strength wise and Marcus I think has potential to be solid.
yeah, Dread looks tough. looking forward to seeing him play.
Tony Dobbins is the best defender UR has had for the last 30 years so saying a guy is not Dobbins is by no means a slight but Dobbins cannot be the only standard for great defending. Goose is very good, I think that's pretty obvious.
I'll die on the Goose hill here I guess for minutes and role as a starter. I personally like offense off the bench more than defense off the bench - get Burton, Quinn and whoever starts at the 1 and 4 some shots early in the game - Goose will take what comes in the flow of the game without needing the ball. Then bring in Roche as a sniper when some of the starters sit - Kendall Anthony style, to hold down the offense. Playing your 5 best offensive players to start just bc of their offensive games won't allow everyone to thrive, but often "best five" is equated with "best offense five" and that's not ideal to me for what constitutes both a starting and ending five.
Also with regard to the quick hook conversation - you know who had extremely quick hooks for 2 years of their UR careers? Justin Harper and Darien Brothers. The Moon hook was fully in place for both bc they kept making the same mistakes - just like Sal - but unlike Sal, those guys had the ability to produce, they just needed time to refine and remedy their mistakes. Which they did and the hook went away. Sal was given the time to develop and remedy mistakes - and produce - but never did. A freshman mistake as a senior doesn't fly anymore.
I'll die on the Goose hill here I guess for minutes and role as a starter. I personally like offense off the bench more than defense off the bench - get Burton, Quinn and whoever starts at the 1 and 4 some shots early in the game - Goose will take what comes in the flow of the game without needing the ball. Then bring in Roche as a sniper when some of the starters sit - Kendall Anthony style, to hold down the offense. Playing your 5 best offensive players to start just bc of their offensive games won't allow everyone to thrive, but often "best five" is equated with "best offense five" and that's not ideal to me for what constitutes both a starting and ending five.
Also with regard to the quick hook conversation - you know who had extremely quick hooks for 2 years of their UR careers? Justin Harper and Darien Brothers. The Moon hook was fully in place for both bc they kept making the same mistakes - just like Sal - but unlike Sal, those guys had the ability to produce, they just needed time to refine and remedy their mistakes. Which they did and the hook went away. Sal was given the time to develop and remedy mistakes - and produce - but never did. A freshman mistake as a senior doesn't fly anymore.
I never saw Dobbins but def heard of him. Solid post and I can def get with it. I agree with you about having some offensive power come off the bench.
Tony Dobbins is one of the most under appreciated Spiders in school history. People forget he was originally recruited to be an offensive player in John Beilein's system and when Wainright came in put in the work to become the best defender I have ever seen put on a Spider uniform. Had he not had a wardrobe malfunction against Wisconsin in the NCAAs, probably win that game. He had shut down top 5 draft pick Devin Harris up until that point.
You've heard us gush about his defense here but the dude could be a killer when he wanted to. Fast forward to about 4:25 if you want to see his game winner vs. Kansas. I still remembering jumping so high in my room I hit my head on the ceiling fan when he hit that shot jumping from the couch. He would be a starter on any of my all-time Spider teams since I have been following the team (1995).
Dobbins is definetly on my all time team as well. Guy was a gamer, known for his premier defense, but if we needed a big play or big shot, you could also count on him. Case in point, the Kansas game.
And don't get me going on the whole shoe debacle during the Wisconsin game.
No please don't re: shoe debacle. Freaking use a timeout Jer. Still upset about that. Wainwright in a nutshell.
Dobbins indeed hits the game winner vs Kansas but he also blocks a shot as primary on ball defender just before that causing a shot clock violation and getting UR the ball back. Then after the game winner KU throws it to midcourt for a heave and he blocks that attempt too as a help defender (was nullified bc of push off foul on KU guy but his recovery/help was still awesome.)
Dobbins/Skrocki ftw.
Dobbins indeed hits the game winner vs Kansas but he also blocks a shot as primary on ball defender just before that causing a shot clock violation and getting UR the ball back. Then after the game winner KU throws it to midcourt for a heave and he blocks that attempt too as a help defender (was nullified bc of push off foul on KU guy but his recovery/help was still awesome.)
Dobbins/Skrocki ftw.
Can't remember entirely but we were up 13 against Wisconsin in the 2nd half. Wisconsin made a run to close it to 7 then Dobbins had a shoe blow out or something and Wisconsin ran wild until he came back in and by then it was too late. Would of loved to see what he would of been in JB's system his last two years, but Im not sure he becomes the defender he did because JW did teach good D at least and I didn't recall Dobbins as an elite defender before JW showed up.
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