spiderstudent17 said:

Ferrum, I certainly share a lot of the sentiment you expressed. However, I am not in the camp of getting out the pitchforks in this situation and I'll explain my rational below:

First, I want to say that I too have the mentality that we should aspire to compete in the best conference for our sports and not care about the image of the school's we play, as long as its the best competition. Athletics can absolutely bolster a school's academic profile and if Richmond wants to improve its national brand recognition, there is no single-faster way to do it than through sports. Seems to work for Duke, Wake Forest, Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Villanova, Georgetown, Davidson, and even Ivy League schools in some of their sports (tennis, lacrosse, etc). Believe it or not, I actually think Richmond recognizes it, but are not as vocal about it or even show it in the most direct ways. The reality is we are not Alabama. We do not have infinite money to throw at athletics. That means we have to be judicious in the way we spend and be mindful of where to devote our energy and resources when it comes to athletics at UR. It is evidently clear that the flagship sport at our university is basketball and membership at the Atlantic 10 conference. Being consistently in the top 25 in basketball or a final four run will do 100x more for our recognition than a football FCS championship. Alumni, fans, and the university all know this. That's why we've built a $15 million basketball practice facility, fly chartered flights to our games, and have the one of the best attendance in the country for a school our size. If there is only so much money we realistically can work with, I think most of us would support in making our basketball the best it can be. We're seeing results of that. 2021 A10 tourney champs, 2024 A10 regular season champs, and a very competitive NIL (JOC said in an interview we have about $500K/year). To the best of my knowledge, this is the first year we have ever gotten a consensus top 100 recruit in the country for men's basketball.

We have seen so many schools in the country chase their pipe dream of football at the detriment of all their other sports. I am sure we would all be getting out the pitch forks if we left the A10 conference for basketball to go be in the MAC for football. And you might point out that we aren't talking about being the best in all of football (FBS) but being the best in the FCS. Yes, which is why this move won't have as much of an impact as some may think. The way I see it, here's the best football conferences in the country.

Tiers:
1a. SEC, Big 10
1b. ACC, Big 12
2. G5 conferences
3. MVFC, Big Sky
4a. CAA w/o UR
4b. SoCon
4c. Patriot League w/ UR in it

Richmond's decision to leave the CAA, didn't come out of the blue. They left after the CAA diluted the conference with teams that add nothing for football and was being poorly managed by the commissioner. While I have no idea what the administration's true intentions are with the move to the Patriot League, I don't personally think it was entirely to de-emphasize football and be with peer institutions. If that was the case, we would've done so 10 years ago when the CAA was at its peak. Instead, they probably felt that the CAA now is not what they signed up for when we first joined. Of course, the other academic institutions of the Patriot League was seen as a plus by the administration. Additionally, UR probably thought to themselves that people aren't really going to the football games when we play Monmouth and Campbell at the CAA, it likely won't be any worse when we play Colgate or Holy Cross. They also thought and said that the difference in quality between being in the 4a tier conference vs. the 4b or 4c is not enough where the cost that goes into football is worth it at the expense of all our other sports. So if we can save money, likely garner the same fan interest, play more academically similar institutions, and be in a less diluted/more stable conference that is slightly less in competitiveness (for now), it was likely thought of as a good decision.

Yes, the CAA is still objectively better than the Patriot League in football right now, but for how long can we say that? Whether we will look back at this as a good move or not, time will tell. However, if Villanova joins and William & Mary join (or at least we still play every year) then there are teams like UR, Villanova, W&M, Lafayette, Holy Cross, & Colgate who can all be in the top 25 at any given time. Again, I have no idea whether this will be the case, but if I'm Villanova or Willam & Mary the prospect of this should garner a lot more interest than playing in a 15 team CAA conference with teams like Bryant or Maine. I did not like the timing of us leaving either and would have rather left after the CAA implodes because the Patriot League would have taken us at any time for football and it gives us a few more years competing in a better conference. I would have also liked to have gone with other schools simultaneously. However, UR may have been more proactive in this manner and other teams will follow suit.

At the end, it is a bummer. I want UR to be the best at everything. But I also have expectations recognizing that UR is not going to change its identity and be something it's not. This isn't 1970 anymore. UR is not playing the likes of Virginia Tech or WVU on a consistent basis. However, we can still compete and do well in FCS. Holy Cross was an 8 seed in the 2022 bracket. If we dedicate the same resources as we do now, and schedule well OOC, we can poise ourselves to be getting seeds in NCAA tournament and making deep runs. Winning conference championships and hosting NCAA tournament games will also do well with our recruiting pitch. We may fall flat with this move or it may turn out to be an excellent move, but I remain hopeful either way.

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Or even 1982…

I’m sorry we had to cut soccer, but realistically we never got very far.
I suspect that the fact that most private schools play lacrosse, which
draws more academically prepared students to Richmond, was one main
it was chosen to replace soccer.
There is no comparison where we are with lacrosse and where we were with soccer.

The CAA as a football conference will not exist for much longer after we leave.

Interesting discussion on the Holy Cross football message board. It gets bogged down with academic minutia about halfway through but they are very glad we are joining their league.

Ferrum Spider said:

A few rambling thoughts not meant to inflame the fan base but I am sure some will perceive it as such.

I am genuinely shocked at the level apathy, acceptance and even enthusiasm by some of the fans (many of whom I respect) moving to the PL, who have lost their lunch over a hastily thought out administrative decisions in the past (Rocco, Dropping Soccer, PL move 1.0) cheer this move. I feel like were looking at this move through rose colored glasses only, desperate to do anything at the changing landscape of college athletics. Most non UR people I know that spoke to me about it think we're insane.

I get we all hate the CAA and not suggesting it wasn't time to leave but there were and are other options that would of benefitted this program. The fact that we only had only 35 fans even vote on this website shows the sad state of the support of this program that within the past 15 years would draw 20k crowds and now cant even put 2k fans in the stands for a game is depressing.

Joining this league is not going to grow the fan base nor attract top notch FCS football talent, it just gives us a convenient landing spot to play on average historically worse programs that we have a ton in common academically with which is something we wailed against for basketball but all of a sudden are fine with in football? A rising tide lifts all boats, and we decided to float in low tide with a nice yacht hoping itll be able to sail smoothly. Just look at some of the players response on social media and tell me you think were going to attract the same level of talent with a straight face.

If you thought crowds were bad before, just wait. Its laughable to think that the students of today, who cant even be bothered to walk across campus when we had JMU, Delaware, WM come to campus to all of a sudden think as alums they're going to go to a Holy Cross-UR game in Worchester.

When we almost left back in 2005, there was enough support to prevent what would of been a catastrophic move for our football program. Less than 3 years later we were a national champion. Show of hands who thinks that we have taken a step towards being that relevant with the same move 20 years later?

Im not going to be all doom and gloom. I do admit something needed to be done, and over time there is potential for this not to be as bad as a move on paper as it seems. There are a couple of nice perks like no longer dealing with Flo and a consistent schedule each year. But it seems that were selling a lot of hope that Villanova (Where there is no smoke currently that they're joining) and that WM will continue the series (Quick search already shows in 25/27 they already have a full non conference slate and WM was quite petty over our departure in 2000 from the CAA refusing to schedule us in hoops (Not nearly as big a deal since we don't need that game). It seems to me that we are trying to force their hand and hope for the best while thinking in the mean time we found ourselves a landing spot. If that's the case I have 0 faith in our administration and in reading the room there.

The move makes sense in some areas one could argue, but its quite a ways away from being a slam dunk, and certainly not something that will provide a boost in incoming talent.

Click to expand...

Ferrum, I certainly share a lot of the sentiment you expressed. However, I am not in the camp of getting out the pitchforks in this situation and I'll explain my rational below:

First, I want to say that I too have the mentality that we should aspire to compete in the best conference for our sports and not care about the image of the school's we play, as long as its the best competition. Athletics can absolutely bolster a school's academic profile and if Richmond wants to improve its national brand recognition, there is no single-faster way to do it than through sports. Seems to work for Duke, Wake Forest, Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Villanova, Georgetown, Davidson, and even Ivy League schools in some of their sports (tennis, lacrosse, etc). Believe it or not, I actually think Richmond recognizes it, but are not as vocal about it or even show it in the most direct ways. The reality is we are not Alabama. We do not have infinite money to throw at athletics. That means we have to be judicious in the way we spend and be mindful of where to devote our energy and resources when it comes to athletics at UR. It is evidently clear that the flagship sport at our university is basketball and membership at the Atlantic 10 conference. Being consistently in the top 25 in basketball or a final four run will do 100x more for our recognition than a football FCS championship. Alumni, fans, and the university all know this. That's why we've built a $15 million basketball practice facility, fly chartered flights to our games, and have the one of the best attendance in the country for a school our size. If there is only so much money we realistically can work with, I think most of us would support in making our basketball the best it can be. We're seeing results of that. 2021 A10 tourney champs, 2024 A10 regular season champs, and a very competitive NIL (JOC said in an interview we have about $500K/year). To the best of my knowledge, this is the first year we have ever gotten a consensus top 100 recruit in the country for men's basketball.

We have seen so many schools in the country chase their pipe dream of football at the detriment of all their other sports. I am sure we would all be getting out the pitch forks if we left the A10 conference for basketball to go be in the MAC for football. And you might point out that we aren't talking about being the best in all of football (FBS) but being the best in the FCS. Yes, which is why this move won't have as much of an impact as some may think. The way I see it, here's the best football conferences in the country.

Tiers:
1a. SEC, Big 10
1b. ACC, Big 12
2. G5 conferences
3. MVFC, Big Sky
4a. CAA w/o UR
4b. SoCon
4c. Patriot League w/ UR in it

Richmond's decision to leave the CAA, didn't come out of the blue. They left after the CAA diluted the conference with teams that add nothing for football and was being poorly managed by the commissioner. While I have no idea what the administration's true intentions are with the move to the Patriot League, I don't personally think it was entirely to de-emphasize football and be with peer institutions. If that was the case, we would've done so 10 years ago when the CAA was at its peak. Instead, they probably felt that the CAA now is not what they signed up for when we first joined. Of course, the other academic institutions of the Patriot League was seen as a plus by the administration. Additionally, UR probably thought to themselves that people aren't really going to the football games when we play Monmouth and Campbell at the CAA, it likely won't be any worse when we play Colgate or Holy Cross. They also thought and said that the difference in quality between being in the 4a tier conference vs. the 4b or 4c is not enough where the cost that goes into football is worth it at the expense of all our other sports. So if we can save money, likely garner the same fan interest, play more academically similar institutions, and be in a less diluted/more stable conference that is slightly less in competitiveness (for now), it was likely thought of as a good decision.

Yes, the CAA is still objectively better than the Patriot League in football right now, but for how long can we say that? Whether we will look back at this as a good move or not, time will tell. However, if Villanova joins and William & Mary join (or at least we still play every year) then there are teams like UR, Villanova, W&M, Lafayette, Holy Cross, & Colgate who can all be in the top 25 at any given time. Again, I have no idea whether this will be the case, but if I'm Villanova or Willam & Mary the prospect of this should garner a lot more interest than playing in a 15 team CAA conference with teams like Bryant or Maine. I did not like the timing of us leaving either and would have rather left after the CAA implodes because the Patriot League would have taken us at any time for football and it gives us a few more years competing in a better conference. I would have also liked to have gone with other schools simultaneously. However, UR may have been more proactive in this manner and other teams will follow suit.

At the end, it is a bummer. I want UR to be the best at everything. But I also have expectations recognizing that UR is not going to change its identity and be something it's not. This isn't 1970 anymore. UR is not playing the likes of Virginia Tech or WVU on a consistent basis. However, we can still compete and do well in FCS. Holy Cross was an 8 seed in the 2022 bracket. If we dedicate the same resources as we do now, and schedule well OOC, we can poise ourselves to be getting seeds in NCAA tournament and making deep runs. Winning conference championships and hosting NCAA tournament games will also do well with our recruiting pitch. We may fall flat with this move or it may turn out to be an excellent move, but I remain hopeful either way.

UR80sfan said:

We had our last Spider Collective Zoom call with Chris Mooney Thursday. He was very open in his discussions about the team and players. Most of what he said I will keep confidential, however the high level view is that this is a very strong team with intense competition to start at 4 of the 5 positions. He reviewed and showed films of each of the players added from the portal and they are an extremely impressive group. He also said some very positive things about a few of the players that were recruited out of high school over the past 2 years, which is extremely encouraging. There is a very high probability Hunt starts. He is the leader of the team and an outstanding guard.

The coaching staff has done a tremendous job adding players through the portal. In addition, having one of the conference’s top NIL programs has also helped. We are very fortunate to have Paul and Greg volunteering their time to build out the Spider Collective, which currently has 25 members and steadily growing. They are always looking for recommendations of new people at the $10,000 level to reach out to. Also, as mentioned many times in the past, the NIL will take any size donation on their website.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the update 80sfan. We are indeed very fortunate with the support we have in building up the collective. JOC recently had an interview where he shared we had about $500K a year for NIL. If so, that is excellent and towards the top of the A10.

Please feel free to suggest some of the ideas I listed to PQ or anyone else in charge of leading the NIL collective, if you'd like. It may not attract as many $10K donors, but could attract hundreds more $250-1000 level donors, which of course adds up.

Maryland beats Duke

Headed to Semifinals

Jordan Nesbitt to Wyoming.

SFspidur said:

How about Spiders to MVFC?

Nightmare travel, but excellent football!

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If Stanford and Cal can join the ACC, we should join the Big Sky!

Spiders indeed earn the 4-seed and face #5 GW. We swept them in the regular season, so let’s keep it going.

How about Spiders to MVFC?

Nightmare travel, but excellent football!

bullfrog91 said:

I don't see WM going anywhere...Nova is a different atory

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W&M friends all seem to think they are moving

The reality is that the only thing that would have made me genuinely excited was if we announced we were ripping out the track, expanding to 30k seats and joining AAC, CUSA or even the Sun Belt. I would have never thought that 20 years ago but things change. The CAA is a disaster. There is not a single FCS conference I’d be excited about.

whampas said:

What would this board be saying if Villanova and W&M had announced that they were leaving for the PL or one of them? It's an honest question.

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Id of accepted it much more easily and I hope they do now that we made it. What's done is done. I want what's best for this program even if it proves others I don't agree with correct. Were in a tough spot being a non voting member of this conference as we watched it drop in quality. I understand the desire to leave it and have some say over the makeup of your opponents. It would of essentially killed off the CAA and make it easier for PL to recruit.

I'm not against leaving the CAA as I said. I just think we jumped the gun and the admin took advantage of the regular fans disgust with the state of the CAA and used it as an excuse to go the PL rather than have a public discourse over it since our administration has the social skills of a wasp.

I don't trust this was the wisest move, certainly in the short term, and likely the long term if the Patriot League as a whole doesn't elevate its game as a league and no one else joins. Outside the platitude of hope, it sounds like we made our move and hope we can shoehorn two other programs to capitulate to this brand of football when all of us have had much success previously against every type of school out there at the FCS level. You don't think Mike London and Novas coach are already recruiting against us right now talking about the quality of the two conferences? Its an honest question.

urmite said:

My question is, Do you think it is as big a step down as it would have been 20 years ago?

I think that is the reason for mixed reactions. I have always wanted this move to work, but have also always been very skeptical of it.

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No, but its a step down without bringing the others along. Will gladly breathe a sigh of relief but not overly thrilled. Its not so much the big step down so much as an acknowledgement that we are no aiming to compete at the highest level respective to the classification we play in. No one is going to mistake the PL for a top tier league any season.

I think were looking at it as we had to either stay in the CAA or go to the Patriot League, but I would of like to have seen more options explored before going this alone.

I get that's not easy to do, but this move alone tells me that we are not at all on the same page with Villanova and WM with regards to what we want to do with our football program/conference affiliation.

MrTbone said:

I think you may be underrating his passing. If anything, he passed too much maybe, but he was pretty decisive and he zipped it into guys.

Next step for him I think is having confidence to score. Shackles may have been on a bit as the backup 5, but next year he’ll have to score if he expects to be the lead center.

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TBone I think confidence is the optimum word, as Mike needs to let the last play go and move on. He showed disappointment too easily after a bad play and would get down on himself. I like his toughness and his shooting has improved from close, mid and long range.

urmite said:

My thoughts on Lacrosse.

I think our odds are better at winning a D1 National Championship in Lacrosse than FBS Football…

But I don’t think Pro lacrosse generates more revenue than the NFL…

Click to expand...

I agree, but also believe as more P5 schools pick up LAX that window closes even more.

Ferrum Spider said:

A few rambling thoughts not meant to inflame the fan base but I am sure some will perceive it as such.

I am genuinely shocked at the level apathy, acceptance and even enthusiasm by some of the fans (many of whom I respect) moving to the PL, who have lost their lunch over a hastily thought out administrative decisions in the past (Rocco, Dropping Soccer, PL move 1.0) cheer this move. I feel like were looking at this move through rose colored glasses only, desperate to do anything at the changing landscape of college athletics. Most non UR people I know that spoke to me about it think we're insane.

I get we all hate the CAA and not suggesting it wasn't time to leave but there were and are other options that would of benefitted this program. The fact that we only had only 35 fans even vote on this website shows the sad state of the support of this program that within the past 15 years would draw 20k crowds and now cant even put 2k fans in the stands for a game is depressing.

Joining this league is not going to grow the fan base nor attract top notch FCS football talent, it just gives us a convenient landing spot to play on average historically worse programs that we have a ton in common academically with which is something we wailed against for basketball but all of a sudden are fine with in football? A rising tide lifts all boats, and we decided to float in low tide with a nice yacht hoping itll be able to sail smoothly. Just look at some of the players response on social media and tell me you think were going to attract the same level of talent with a straight face.

If you thought crowds were bad before, just wait. Its laughable to think that the students of today, who cant even be bothered to walk across campus when we had JMU, Delaware, WM come to campus to all of a sudden think as alums they're going to go to a Holy Cross-UR game in Worchester.

When we almost left back in 2005, there was enough support to prevent what would of been a catastrophic move for our football program. Less than 3 years later we were a national champion. Show of hands who thinks that we have taken a step towards being that relevant with the same move 20 years later?

Im not going to be all doom and gloom. I do admit something needed to be done, and over time there is potential for this not to be as bad as a move on paper as it seems. There are a couple of nice perks like no longer dealing with Flo and a consistent schedule each year. But it seems that were selling a lot of hope that Villanova (Where there is no smoke currently that they're joining) and that WM will continue the series (Quick search already shows in 25/27 they already have a full non conference slate and WM was quite petty over our departure in 2000 from the CAA refusing to schedule us in hoops (Not nearly as big a deal since we don't need that game). It seems to me that we are trying to force their hand and hope for the best while thinking in the mean time we found ourselves a landing spot. If that's the case I have 0 faith in our administration and in reading the room there.

The move makes sense in some areas one could argue, but its quite a ways away from being a slam dunk, and certainly not something that will provide a boost in incoming talent.

Click to expand...

My question is, Do you think it is as big a step down as it would have been 20 years ago?

I think that is the reason for mixed reactions. I have always wanted this move to work, but have also always been very skeptical of it.

urfan1 said:

Your glass is not half empty, it is empty and desert dry.

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Yes, and his silly weed cigarette is fully lit.

Ferrum Spider said:

A few rambling thoughts not meant to inflame the fan base but I am sure some will perceive it as such.

I am genuinely shocked at the level apathy, acceptance and even enthusiasm by some of the fans (many of whom I respect) moving to the PL, who have lost their lunch over a hastily thought out administrative decisions in the past (Rocco, Dropping Soccer, PL move 1.0) cheer this move. I feel like were looking at this move through rose colored glasses only, desperate to do anything at the changing landscape of college athletics. Most non UR people I know that spoke to me about it think we're insane.

I get we all hate the CAA and not suggesting it wasn't time to leave but there were and are other options that would of benefitted this program. The fact that we only had only 35 fans even vote on this website shows the sad state of the support of this program that within the past 15 years would draw 20k crowds and now cant even put 2k fans in the stands for a game is depressing.

Joining this league is not going to grow the fan base nor attract top notch FCS football talent, it just gives us a convenient landing spot to play on average historically worse programs that we have a ton in common academically with which is something we wailed against for basketball but all of a sudden are fine with in football? A rising tide lifts all boats, and we decided to float in low tide with a nice yacht hoping itll be able to sail smoothly. Just look at some of the players response on social media and tell me you think were going to attract the same level of talent with a straight face.

If you thought crowds were bad before, just wait. Its laughable to think that the students of today, who cant even be bothered to walk across campus when we had JMU, Delaware, WM come to campus to all of a sudden think as alums they're going to go to a Holy Cross-UR game in Worchester.

When we almost left back in 2005, there was enough support to prevent what would of been a catastrophic move for our football program. Less than 3 years later we were a national champion. Show of hands who thinks that we have taken a step towards being that relevant with the same move 20 years later?

Im not going to be all doom and gloom. I do admit something needed to be done, and over time there is potential for this not to be as bad as a move on paper as it seems. There are a couple of nice perks like no longer dealing with Flo and a consistent schedule each year. But it seems that were selling a lot of hope that Villanova (Where there is no smoke currently that they're joining) and that WM will continue the series (Quick search already shows in 25/27 they already have a full non conference slate and WM was quite petty over our departure in 2000 from the CAA refusing to schedule us in hoops (Not nearly as big a deal since we don't need that game). It seems to me that we are trying to force their hand and hope for the best while thinking in the mean time we found ourselves a landing spot. If that's the case I have 0 faith in our administration and in reading the room there.

The move makes sense in some areas one could argue, but its quite a ways away from being a slam dunk, and certainly not something that will provide a boost in incoming talent.

Click to expand...

What would this board be saying if Villanova and W&M had announced that they were leaving for the PL or one of them? It's an honest question.

I could see Villanova joining a watered down ACC if Clemson, FSU, UNC and others bolt.

My thoughts on Lacrosse.

I think our odds are better at winning a D1 National Championship in Lacrosse than FBS Football…

But I don’t think Pro lacrosse generates more revenue than the NFL…

mojo-spider said:

That would take proactive, aggressive and creative leadership in the AD. That seems to have been in short supply for football in recent years.

I have no idea if we even tried to fix the CAA.

This proposed conference reminds me of the mythical “Magnolia League” from rumors years ago. It would rock!

It remains to be seen how this move affects the program long term. I’m going to give it a chance and see what happens. When we dropped to I-AA in the early 80’s I felt like the world had ended. Then a similar feeling when we joined the Yankee v. Southern in mid 80’s. Obviously a lot has changed since those days, but Spiders football is still alive and I’ll support it.

Ha. Somewhere there is a JMU fan saying “I told you so.” They predicted the Spiders to the Patriot League in 2006.

Go Spiders!

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When we switched to I-AA, our football world did end.

Mo 2.0 said:

I agree with this.

Not a popular move right now - I get it - but we might be among the "winners" in this shakeup, if there are any.

The CAA as it currently stands is a bad league with worse leadership.

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Yeah, CAA is terrible now. Seems like a terrible move to go Patriot, but we are trying to escape a sinking ship. No good options. But does it really matter? Football at our level, while actually decent football, doesn't mean much to most everyone.

Eight Legger said:

Too bad we couldn't just create a league that looks something like:
UR
W&M
Villanova
Wofford
Citadel
Elon
Furman
Lafayette
Lehigh
Fordham
Towson

Click to expand...

Is that more exciting? Doesn't do much for me. Not many options left. Villanova is the only interesting team left.

Ferrum Spider said:

If he isn't smart enough to see this was a bad decision, hardly believe he's smart enough to save this series.

The fact that this board isn't melting down and sharpening pitchforks over this like back in 2005 just shows how little anyone cares about winning championships from the fans to the admin. The nerdy admins have finally won out after breaking our fan base for years.

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People on the Spider messageboard would be way more bent out of shape if this were basketball. We already play at a level of football that may as well be Div IV. No recognition no matter how well we do. Does anyone care about playing Monmouth or even powerful Elon for that matter. In other sports at least we play real teams.