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We can stay with more recent results. 2-7 for the current senior class.

Looking up the record made me wonder, when is the last time we had a class that had a winning record (or at least .500) against vcu? Obviously it used to be less games per year, but I think it’s fair to put Mooney’s record in historical context.
 
GKiller said:
& the Caps had beaten the Pens in plenty of reg season games & once in a playoff series b4 so I guess they could draw on those. We can go round & round. 8-23 is 8-23. If u r a player under Mooney u play & r part of the worst rivalry performance of all high level sports. That can play w your mind. U r a big stats guy do u know any coach who has done worse w equivalent games played?

I expect u would deny but if we were 1-30 or 2-29 vs them & the wins came in last few years I think u would be saying the exact same thing.

And u might say that VCU does not come into the game w more confidence in winning than we do. I disagree. They expect to win we hope to win. The cumulative effect of 8-23 does that. And all I’m suggesting is try to do something different. A byproduct of that is taking personal accountability of the vcu record just once which is quite reasonable on own. Idk I don’t see any of this as some outlandish take.
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We can just keep going round and round, but I just don't see how Mooney bringing up 8-23 would change anything. You say try something different. Well, okay, maybe if you haven't beaten them in several years, try something different. But, why bring this up and this accountability you are asking for now? We just beat them in March, we beat them in 2020, and we swept them in 2018. It just makes no sense.

You think the players think about 8-23 and it affects them. I could not disagree more. My guess is the players wouldn't even know or care what our coach's record is against VCU. Quinn, Roche, Bigs, and Nelson are 0-1 against them. What they do know is we beat them in March, and what Tyler, Grace, and Goose know is they have beaten them twice since 2020. There is no way they have any extra pressure on them because of what happened in this series 6-15 years ago. Makes no sense.
 
VT4700 said:
There is no way they have any extra pressure on them because of what happened in this series 6-15 years ago. Makes no sense.
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But what happened in 2018, 5 years ago, with nobody on team does matter. Ok.

I bring up now bc I still feel there is a cumulative affect of losing regularly that is a detriment and adds some weight to their ability to perform, and that is on the coach. u disagree I get it. I'm not surprised u disagree. As Nathan stated the seniors are 2-7 vs VCU. Tracks w historical #s, actually even less. I've said last year's A10 win was the best W we've had under Mooney. The carry over was an embarrassing whooping at Home on national TV. (we get blown out by them a solid amount). so an occasional win does not change anything, if it did we'd be better than 2-7 or 8-23.

do u know any coach who has done worse vs. main rival w equivalent games played? Again whether taking some pressure of the players would work or not - I think it would help u do not but we don't know bc its never been done - is just 1 part. The other part is personal accountability. maybe his pride won't let him. when u r literally arguably the worst of all time at something & talk to the media regularly I think it would come out. It's like nobody will ever address the elephant in the room. Very strange to me from following sports all my life that's all.
 
spider23 said:
Ok Mr. "Mooney had been recruiting great for the last five years", so his recruiting sucks now, you can't have it both ways. We heard how great Quinn and Roche were. I can see Bigs is a player. Goose absolutely has talent with a coach that could bring it out. The crazy talk is that moon is a great recruiter but we don't have good talent.
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I don't believe you think we have top 2 talent. you watch the games. there's no way you're watching us each night thinking "we're more talented than these guys". I think you like to say we have a ton of talent to prove your point that Mooney isn't a good coach. yet indirectly you're calling him some kind of recruiting savant who's attracting top 2 league talent to UR.

I have said "Mooney had been recruiting great for the last five years". actually longer. since whenever he signed the Golden class. I have never said his recruiting suck now. Nelson and Bailey are both tremendous recruits at the point. do you think they're top half of the league PGs right now? news flash ... they're not.

you're a huge Goose fan and I get it. he's all out hustle all the time. I love that. he's a really good defender and he's shooting better than I ever expected. but he's a shooting guard scoring under 5 ppg for 5 years on a team that needs scoring. Bigs is probably our most "talented" player not named Burton, yet he's not starting and he shoots 27% from outside. Quinn was a great get at a position of need. he's a big boy. he's not top 5 league talent at the 5. Grace is not top 5 talent in the league at the 4. etc...

don't get me wrong. I like our roster. I agree Mooney isn't getting the most out of it. for whatever reason, it takes him a really long time to get his teams to gel. he's never done well when most of his starters graduate.
 
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VT4700 said:
We can just keep going round and round, but I just don't see how Mooney bringing up 8-23 would change anything. You say try something different. Well, okay, maybe if you haven't beaten them in several years, try something different. But, why bring this up and this accountability you are asking for now? We just beat them in March, we beat them in 2020, and we swept them in 2018. It just makes no sense.

You think the players think about 8-23 and it affects them. I could not disagree more. My guess is the players wouldn't even know or care what our coach's record is against VCU. Quinn, Roche, Bigs, and Nelson are 0-1 against them. What they do know is we beat them in March, and what Tyler, Grace, and Goose know is they have beaten them twice since 2020. There is no way they have any extra pressure on them because of what happened in this series 6-15 years ago. Makes no sense.
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Most of your analysis in many posts and threads re: Mooney's record overall and against VCU always seems to take into account short term look-back periods instead of looking at his overall long term body of work (55 pct overall and 25 pct vs VCU). You pick seasons that support a short term narrative and discount the big picture. That's a short sighted approach to try to justify your points & doesn't hold water.

How much momentum have we carried forward from last season? Setting aside a heavily 5th and 6th year group of players, Mooney reloaded with transfer portal guys. But where are we now? We probably end up at our norm - 55 pct long term or lower and one bad defeat already this season to VCU and probably (but hopefully not) another to follow at VCU.
 
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GKiller said:
But what happened in 2018, 5 years ago, with nobody on team does matter. Ok.

I bring up now bc I still feel there is a cumulative affect of losing regularly that is a detriment and adds some weight to their ability to perform, and that is on the coach. u disagree I get it. I'm not surprised u disagree. As Nathan stated the seniors are 2-7 vs VCU. Tracks w historical #s, actually even less. I've said last year's A10 win was the best W we've had under Mooney. The carry over was an embarrassing whooping at Home on national TV. (we get blown out by them a solid amount). so an occasional win does not change anything, if it did we'd be better than 2-7 or 8-23.

do u know any coach who has done worse vs. main rival w equivalent games played? Again whether taking some pressure of the players would work or not - I think it would help u do not but we don't know bc its never been done - is just 1 part. The other part is personal accountability. maybe his pride won't let him. when u r literally arguably the worst of all time at something & talk to the media regularly I think it would come out. It's like nobody will ever address the elephant in the room. Very strange to me from following sports all my life that's all.
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Well, if I am the media, maybe I ask the question after 2017 after we had lost 6 straight to them. But, seems silly to ask now...."Hey coach, you had a huge win against them chasing the at large the covid year, and you beat them in March on your way to the tourney title.......why cant you beat VCU"? Do you not see how silly this sounds?

I think it is only strange to you because 8-23 is everything to you. You even said you would still get on here and say how bad 13-23 is if we won the next 5. So, obviously, this will never change with you unless we somehow get this record to .500? And, I bring up 2018 because you act like we haven't beaten them in 10+ years, but not only did we beat them in 2022 and 2020, we swept them in 2018. Your ongoing anger with this just seems out of place here. I feel like it would have been more appropriate in 2017, that's all.
 
SpiderGuy said:
Most of your analysis in many posts and threads re: Mooney's record overall and against VCU always seems to take into account short term look-back periods instead of looking at his overall long term body of work (55 pct overall and 25 pct vs VCU). You pick seasons that support a short term narrative and discount the big picture. That's a short sighted approach to try to justify your points & doesn't hold water.

How much momentum have we carried forward from last season? Setting aside a heavily 5th and 6th year group of players, Mooney reloaded with transfer portal guys. But where are we now? We probably end up at our norm - 55 pct long term or lower and one bad defeat already this season to VCU and probably (but hopefully not) another to follow at VCU.
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Yes, guilty. I think recent years are more relevant than way back into the past years when discussing programs. How silly, right?
 
VT4700 said:
Well, if I am the media, maybe I ask the question after 2017 after we had lost 6 straight to them. But, seems silly to ask now...."Hey coach, you had a huge win against them chasing the at large the covid year, and you beat them in March on your way to the tourney title.......why cant you beat VCU"? Do you not see how silly this sounds?

I think it is only strange to you because 8-23 is everything to you. You even said you would still get on here and say how bad 13-23 is if we won the next 5. So, obviously, this will never change with you unless we somehow get this record to .500? And, I bring up 2018 because you act like we haven't beaten them in 10+ years, but not only did we beat them in 2022 and 2020, we swept them in 2018. Your ongoing anger with this just seems out of place here. I feel like it would have been more appropriate in 2017, that's all.
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I've never said that. Show me where i said we could win next 5 & I'd get on here & talk about 13-23. u must be thinking of someone else or made it up, because I have no idea.

The media will never ask him that question, in 2017 in 2023 or ever, but that's another topic. Perhaps they think access will get cut idk.

2-7 with current senior class, 8-23 overall. That's bad. An occasional win has not reversed or changed the trends. No, I don't think silly at all. Not angry (u call out ppl regularly who characterize your emotions saying we're just talking, it's just a message board so not sure why doing that to me). But that's ok. I'm not angry. I'm embarrassed it is such a one-sided rivalry.

I've tried to answer your questions, u never answer mine. do u know any coach at our level or higher who has done worse vs. main rival w equivalent games played?
 
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GKiller said:
I've never said that. Show me where i said we could win next 5 & I'd get on here & talk about 13-23. u must be thinking of someone else or made it up, because I have no idea.

The media will never ask him that question, in 2017 in 2023 or ever, but that's another topic. Perhaps they think access will get cut idk.

2-7 with current senior class, 8-23 overall. That's bad. An occasional win has not reversed or changed the trends. No, I don't think silly at all. Not angry (u call out ppl regularly who characterize your emotions saying we're just talking, it's just a message board so not sure why doing that to me). But that's ok. I'm not angry. I'm embarrassed it is such a one-sided rivalry.

I've tried to answer your questions, u never answer mine. do u know any coach at our level or higher who has done worse vs. main rival w equivalent games played?
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Not relevant enough for me to research, but adding equivalent games played seems a little much. So, I guess I can't mention Bruce Weber going 3-20 against Kansas, or John Cooper going 2-10-1 against Michigan, or Al Groh going 1-9 against VT?

And, sorry if you weren't the one who said you would still mention the record against VCU if we won the next 5. Someone did, and I thought it was you. Also sorry for saying you were angry if you are not.
 
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8legs1dream said:
oh wow you mean the team that we play two times (and sometimes three times) EVERY season we have actually managed to steal a win 4 times in the past 7 years, golly you totally changed my outlook that is really good!!!!!

EXTEND MOONEY!
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2018: 2 wins
2019: 2 losses (they were the best team in A10)
2020: split
2021: played once
2022: 1-2

In those 5 years. 2 NCAA appearances to 1 NCAA appearance, I believe.
 
spider23 said:
Not sure how you ever can look at talent in a vacuum. For instance, if we had a young, motivated JB coaching, I think we have top 2 talent. I can only dream how he could have molded a Burton and Bigelow lead team. Probably could have Goose averaging 12 points a game. COACHING MATTERS. That is my point. So yes, I guess you are correct, with mooney at the lead, we have an 8th place talented team. But I think we have the players that are talented enough - I saw it with JB - its easy to talk theoreticals based on this year's performance, but I saw JB take losing players, and make them winners.
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… Goose averaging 12? He has scored 12 TWO TIMES IN HIS CAREER. Once as a freshman, once now. This team is not 8th place talented. They are WELL below that. Bigelow has never even been a starter in his 3 years, why would he be leading any team? Because he’s long and athletic?

As fans, fan. Cheer & support. Or don’t call yourself a fan.
 
VT4700 said:
Not relevant enough for me to research, but you adding equivalent games played seems a little much. So, I guess I can't mention Bruce Weber going 3-20 against Kansas, or John Cooper going 2-10-1 against Michigan, or Al Groh going 1-9 against VT?

And, sorry if you weren't the one who said you would still mention the record against VCU if we won the next 5. Someone did, and I thought it was you. Also sorry for saying you were angry if you are not. Maybe bothered is a better word? You certainly seem bothered by 8-23.
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thx for apologies. who is not bothered by 8-23 except possibly Mooney & our admin.

Didn't u just research it a little? If u knew those 3 records by memory that's impressive. & u can mention them. But I've already said John Cooper was the closest, that's mine. Bruce Weber is good. he was at least going to 5 ncaas in 10 years so .500 clip.

But the equivalent games is very relevant bc guess what all those guys either were fired or resigned. And their record against rival was a key factor. That's what happens when u suck vs rival. Nobody has been given more chances than Moon. Good research project to see if anyone got more. Who is a worse rivalry coach than Mooney of all time? U can make the argument for others but again, the key difference is all of them were fired (or "resigned" bc they were not welcome back). Mooney beats them all. I think we should celebrate being the best of all time at something. Or maybe get a media question about it!
 
VT4700 said:
Not relevant enough for me to research, but adding equivalent games played seems a little much. So, I guess I can't mention Bruce Weber going 3-20 against Kansas, or John Cooper going 2-10-1 against Michigan, or Al Groh going 1-9 against VT?

And, sorry if you weren't the one who said you would still mention the record against VCU if we won the next 5. Someone did, and I thought it was you. Also sorry for saying you were angry if you are not.
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Fired, fired, fired
 
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POMSpidur said:
Why’s that the minimum? Why do you think that? Because we’re in close proximity?
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Because they're our main rival. Because they're in the same league we are. Because they're a few miles away from us. Do you understand how rivalries work? How do you think Duke fans would feel if UNC beat them 3 out of every 4 times they played? I doubt they would say "Eh, no big deal, they are a big public university and we're are just little old Duke."
 
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GKiller said:
thx for apologies. who is not bothered by 8-23 except possibly Mooney & our admin.

Didn't u just research it a little? If u knew those 3 records by memory that's impressive. & u can mention them. But I've already said John Cooper was the closest, that's mine. Bruce Weber is good. he was at least going to 5 ncaas in 10 years so .500 clip.

But the equivalent games is very relevant bc guess what all those guys either were fired or resigned. And their record against rival was a key factor. That's what happens when u suck vs rival. Nobody has been given more chances than Moon. Good research project to see if anyone got more. Who is a worse rivalry coach than Mooney of all time? U can make the argument for others but again, the key difference is all of them were fired (or "resigned" bc they were not welcome back). Mooney beats them all. I think we should celebrate being the best of all time at something. Or maybe get a media question about it!
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Yes, I deleted that after I posted because I agree we all should be bothered by 8-23, but the difference for me is that is more of a lifetime debate than a right now debate. They are two different things IMO.

I actually did know those 3 records without researching. I don't think the rivalry records had anything to do with Weber and Groh being let go (or "resigning"). Weber's last 3 years were terrible, and Groh's act got old. I said after the 20 loss seasons, I wanted Mooney back because I liked the talent we had and wanted to see how they could do with Blake and a healthy Nick, but I said I also understood if we let him go, and accepted why some were down on him then. But, yes, he survived when others probably wouldn't have, and I am glad he did. Even though this year isn't where we want it to be, I still believe our program is in good shape right now. Just my opinion.
 
POMSpidur said:
Bigelow has never even been a starter in his 3 years, why would he be leading any team? Because he’s long and athletic?
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I believe Bigelow started 16 games last year, but point taken. he averaged 8 ppg and his shooting percentage was low ... in a lower level conference. I still see the upside there, though.
 
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FWIW

Believe that Moon is something like 68 games over .500 for his UR tenure.

He is 34 games over .500 vs Fordham, Duquesne and LaSalle. He crushes those.

I'd imagine he's at least 34 games over .500 vs OOC cupcakes during his tenure (which is 2 games over .500 per year in the "should win" games. He may be much more over .500, I didn't look it up, but 2 games over seems a conservative number for including bad seasons as well.

Which leaves him at .500 or worse against everyone else - good teams, middling teams, bottom A10 teams not named FU, DU or LSU, all other teams.
 
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POMSpidur said:
… Goose averaging 12? He has scored 12 TWO TIMES IN HIS CAREER. Once as a freshman, once now. This team is not 8th place talented. They are WELL below that. Bigelow has never even been a starter in his 3 years, why would he be leading any team? Because he’s long and athletic?

As fans, fan. Cheer & support. Or don’t call yourself a fan.
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If Goose is so bad, and can't be coached to shoot more times (he is shooting a nice 3pt % this season), why can't we find a SG to average 12 points???? Blake Francis was a good get, and despite his lack of traditional size was good on D, handled the ball, and scored. Maybe should have grabbed a guy like that in the portal this year. Moon makes the roster, and is responsible for getting the most out of it. It seems he needs to have five all time players to be an NCAA team. THat is what sucks, he can never seem to OVER produce, only UNDER produce.
 
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Although it would be a project...
If you used Kenpom & Location to determine Quadrants, what would all the A10 teams record be against each Quad from 2015-2022 (the 8 seasons that membership didn't change) ?
 
spider23 said:
Keep running him down. I think with a JB, would have seen an all conference type. We saw some really nice games earlier in the season.
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not running him down. I wanted Bigs starting from the get go. in doing so I was accused of running Grace down! Bigs has a ton of potential and could be our best player next year.
 
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I think 23 is saying we would be top 5 in the country with JB? Geez, if Tyler and Bigs were all conference, and Goose averaged 12 a game, would we lose any games, especially IC? I loved JB too, 23, but this is a little much. Every post..."if we had JB this or if we had JB that"..
 
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VT4700 said:
You talk about past performances and say you are surprised that I don't think that plays into our players psych? Why would it? They just finished beating them in March. And, as I said in the previous post, if that is so true, why can't beating them twice in 2018, again in 2020, and again in March "play into their psych"? I'm actually surprised you keep bringing 8-23 up as if that is all our players think about. You act like we haven't beaten VCU in years when we just beat them in March. Goose, Grace, and Tyler have beaten VCU twice, both huge wins, yet you want our coach to tell the world he is 8-23 because that will somehow help our players? Sorry, I just can't make that make any sense.

As for your Caps example, it is not a good one. The Caps finally beat the Penquins in the playoffs in 2018 after not beating them in the playoffs since 1994, losing 7 series in a row. So, if they also had beaten them in the 2020 playoffs and again in 2022, would their players really have this "burden" in 2023? We beat VCU in 2018 (twice), 2020, and 2022, yet you think our players have this burden because our coach is 8-23 against them going back to 2006? This just makes no sense at all. Your example proves my point....you act like we have never beaten VCU when we have actually beaten them 4 times since 2018.
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4 times since 2018 isn't setting the world on fire though, you do realize this right?

FWIW, I understand the reset on what current players think versus former ones, but it's not an on/off switch. The current seniors have been here for 4/5 seasons, they carry that record now, and I suspect felt the weight of the 3 years before them when they were just freshmen. If they don't, it's a missed opportunity to motivate them, as I think everyone can get up for a rivalry game.
 
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VT4700 said:
Yes, I deleted that after I posted because I agree we all should be bothered by 8-23, but the difference for me is that is more of a lifetime debate than a right now debate. They are two different things IMO.

I actually did know those 3 records without researching. I don't think the rivalry records had anything to do with Weber and Groh being let go (or "resigning"). Weber's last 3 years were terrible, and Groh's act got old. I said after the 20 loss seasons, I wanted Mooney back because I liked the talent we had and wanted to see how they could do with Blake and a healthy Nick, but I said I also understood if we let him go, and accepted why some were down on him then. But, yes, he survived when others probably wouldn't have, and I am glad he did. Even though this year isn't where we want it to be, I still believe our program is in good shape right now. Just my opinion.
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Well we definitely disagree on not having anything to do w being fired. 100% think a factor doesn’t mean the factor. W Cooper no doubt. Weber ranted about Kansas at end of tenure re: cheating, that was on his mind bc he knew held against him. Google & a couple articles on terrible record vs KU come right up. Groh idk but I’d like to hear anyone say 1-9 didn’t hurt him. I feel like a terrible record vs main rival is universally a factor.

If we r in good place as program & I know u very high on the team, then it shouldn’t be a big ask to go into Costco in a few weeks & win.
 
Eight Legger said:
Because they're our main rival. Because they're in the same league we are. Because they're a few miles away from us. Do you understand how rivalries work? How do you think Duke fans would feel if UNC beat them 3 out of every 4 times they played? I doubt they would say "Eh, no big deal, they are a big public university and we're are just little old Duke."
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We are not Duke or UNC? Sorry to break it to you.

VCU’s longest win steak against Richmond came from 1977-1979. They won 7 games in a row against UR. I don’t think Mooney coached then, then went on to win the next 11/14 games against UR.. I guess that was Mooney’s fault as well.

It gets better. UR won 9 of the last 22 meetings before CM got to be head coach. This rivalry you speak of was control by VCU well before CM got there.
 
spider23 said:
If Goose is so bad, and can't be coached to shoot more times (he is shooting a nice 3pt % this season), why can't we find a SG to average 12 points???? Blake Francis was a good get, and despite his lack of traditional size was good on D, handled the ball, and scored. Maybe should have grabbed a guy like that in the portal this year. Moon makes the roster, and is responsible for getting the most out of it. It seems he needs to have five all time players to be an NCAA team. THat is what sucks, he can never seem to OVER produce, only UNDER produce.
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We grabbed the BEST SHOOTER in the portal, turns out he just wasn’t as effective at this level. It happens. The covid year from last year made this year difficult to recruit for UR. I don’t know how that was hard to understand.

Blake Francis was an unbelievable get. Not often many teams are grabbing a 2x all a10 guy out of the portal. With NIL how much do you think our players are making?! Recruiting to UR can’t be easy, especially with the academic side added on top of the low NIL.
 
POMSpidur said:
We are not Duke or UNC? Sorry to break it to you.

VCU’s longest win steak against Richmond came from 1977-1979. They won 7 games in a row against UR. I don’t think Mooney coached then, then went on to win the next 11/14 games against UR.. I guess that was Mooney’s fault as well.

It gets better. UR won 9 of the last 22 meetings before CM got to be head coach. This rivalry you speak of was control by VCU well before CM got there.
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"They've always owned us so we shouldn't expect it to change" is not a great argument.
 
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POMSpidur said:
We are not Duke or UNC? Sorry to break it to you.

VCU’s longest win steak against Richmond came from 1977-1979. They won 7 games in a row against UR. I don’t think Mooney coached then, then went on to win the next 11/14 games against UR.. I guess that was Mooney’s fault as well.

It gets better. UR won 9 of the last 22 meetings before CM got to be head coach. This rivalry you speak of was control by VCU well before CM got there.
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Did I suggest that we are Duke-UNC? Of course not. The point was that our rivalry is very similar on a smaller scale. But honestly, take away everything else: we should never go 8-23 in 31 straight games against anyone in our league or in a lower league, as VCU has been for all of those games. Never!

We aren't Fordham or LaSalle. Those teams have sucked for years and years. Would you accept 8-23 against St. Bonaventure? St. Joe's? St. Louis?

Also, 9-13 against VCU prior to Money is a lot closer to .500 than 8-23 is during Mooney. So thanks for making my point.
 
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What was the Temple/St Joe record during the Chaney/Martelli years?
 
Since 99, Temple leads 22-20. That would include a few of those years at least.

Edit: full breakdown.

They overlapped from 1995 through 2006. Looks like it was 13-11 Temple during that time.
 
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