"Running Players Off"

[MolivaManiac]

We used to be a program that prided ourselves in the fact that a scholarship to play basketball here was a 4 year deal if the kid stayed on the strait and narrow. Sure, there could be some debate that perhaps one or multiple of Luke P, Tim Aingleton, Kadeem, Chandler and Kovien decided to leave on their own accord, but I have a hard time buying it.

Take Conor Smith, for example. There's no way in hell that Conor Smith would see his third semester here now. He got a degree here because we had pride in the way we handled our scholarships and he contributed his sr year. Now we're playing the same game as others and we're not playing it well at all. We used to rip our cross town rivals for stuff like this. And rightfully so.

Perhaps this is "just a reality of the times". I really don't enjoy having us be a part of that reality. Get better high school recruits and develop them. Period.

Good luck Kovien. We hardly knew ye.

 

[SFspidur]

Hard to say how much of it is running guys off. You can certainly send a message by not putting them on the floor, but I don't really view that as running someone off. You have to earn your PT.

If a kid wants to stay and we simply yank the schollie, that's a bigger issue for me, provided the kid is giving it his all. Don't know that's happening though. Not entirely sure we need to run KoVien off given we still had two open ships even with him on board.

Certainly can't blame him for leaving considering he used a year of eligibility for one minute of time on the court. But we simply don't know where the ultimate transfer decision came from.

 

[MolivaManiac]

University of Richmond of the A10


Eastern Illinois
Lindenwood
D2 in Texas whose name I forget
Siena
????

With the possible exception of Siena, you cannot convince me these xfer decisions were made by the student athletes based on proactive decision making to get more minutes elsewhere. You just cant.

If I'm told by the staff after season's end that I will never play meaningful minutes, that's running me off. And that's not a conversation where I'm offered the opportunity to sit on the bench for free for 3 years.

If I'm told that I need to improve this, this and this to have a chance, you better believe I'm working extra hard to stay at UR and not end up at one of these other schools.

 

[SpiderK]

Bench players had to have been discouraged by some of the players that were being put on the floor ahead of them. After 30 minutes of playing time, the bench players still had the same stats as some of the starters. 0,0,0,

 

[sdspider]

Hey its part of the biz and I have no problem with it. I do have a problem though with so many misses on recruiting. That's where the issue lies. Didn't someone say Ohio State had 3 out of 4 freshmen transferring. And these guys were highly recruited I imagine.

It's a competitive business and Mooney's job is on the line, he better try to recruit and get guys who will make an impact. The days of all or most recruits staying 4 years is over. Produce or move on. Hopefully we can replace our transfers with better ones, ala Cline and would have had Avilla. The verdict on Wood is still out.

 

[fan2011]

Hey its part of the biz and I have no problem with it. I do have a problem though with so many misses on recruiting. That's where the issue lies. Didn't someone say Ohio State had 3 out of 4 freshmen transferring. And these guys were highly recruited I imagine.

It's a competitive business and Mooney's job is on the line, he better try to recruit and get guys who will make an impact. The days of all or most recruits staying 4 years is over. Produce or move on. Hopefully we can replace our transfers with better ones, ala Cline and would have had Avilla. The verdict on Wood is still out.

I believe 4 out of 5 freshmen for Ohio State are transferring (including 1 who transferred after the fall semester.) The number of transfers has nearly quadrupled over the last decade, I wouldn't be surprised if we break 800 transfers this year. We will be nearing 3 transfers per school every season soon.

 

[urfan1]

I understand the NCAA is monitoring the situation, we may yet see an attempt at changing the rules

 

[spider23]

I understand the NCAA is monitoring the situation, we may yet see an attempt at changing the rules

The NCAA is a joke

 

[spider23]

While the transfer game has grown by leaps and bounds, I do think our multitude of recruiting missed has forced this hand. It does feel a little slimy. As noted, I would be doubtful if we can fill in 3 legit talents now, unless we do land a grad transfer or two.

 

[Eight Legger]

It looks bad either way. Either we are pushing kids out, and we never should have recruited them in the first place. I'm glad we seem to have stepped up our recruiting game, so hopefully we are signing kids who can cut it here. I don't think we will be running off anyone who can play here.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Correct me but was not Kovien the last player signed in the recruiting class? Was he not
somewhat positioned as a project due to fact he started basketball late? We don't know what
was discussed but maybe after sit down and review at end of season, he was told that maybe
a less competitive league would be better for him to get playing time. We don't know, but someone
did report they frequently saw him working out after practice on his shooting. Sounded like he is
dedicated to improving and has a good work ethic. He should be where he is going to be happy.

 

[urfan1]

The NCAA is a joke

Can't disagree

 

[64Spider]

Do we use a recruiting service? If we do then it may be time to fire them. We seem to have more misses than makes.

 

[spider23]

Its hard to tell what goes on in these situations. Very well could be that he saw Sherod, Buckingham, Godwin, Schneider are all wing types that would seem to be duplicating his skill set. I was more optimistic on Kovien than some of our other misses based on the video. Long arms, deep range, late bloomer. Decent athleticism, and looked like a guy with 2 years in the weight room could be a contributor later in his career. Wish him well, I do think he can have a good career somewhere.

 

[Eight Legger]

I'll be surprised if he ends up transferring to another DI school, shocked if it's a top-20 league in DI.

 

[Spiders10]

"@ZachFleer270: Richmond freshman forward Kovien Dominaus is leaving the program. The former Independence standout has three years eligibility remaining. 43 mins ago"

"@ZachFleer270: You can expect every D2 in the region to get on the 6'7 sharp-shooting Dominaus. A few programs in the Mountain East very interested. 40 mins ago"

 

[ur2K]

However it's happening, our roster management in the last few years is an absolute mess.

 

[spiderman]

I have a problem when a school gets a commitment from #14 when you can only have 13. that doesn't seem right. but we've never done that.
I don't know the story, but I doubt we flat out forced him to leave. yes, the conversation may have been that we feel there are kids ahead of him now. but you don't force a kid out in almost April with only 10 other kids on scholarship. we're not looking to open a slot right now. I'm betting he left because he wanted to.

 

[97spiderfan]

Here's what happened in my view: Mooney realized he would look really foolish last Spring if he left 2 scholarships unfilled. So, he went out and signed a guy to fill that slot. 6'7 guys don't fall under the radar like a guard might and Kovien was basically unrecruited at the D-1 level with the exception of one offer from a very low mid major program, UT Martin.

He was not a "project" or a roll of the dice, at best he was a shot in the complete dark, at worst he was a pawn that Mooney used to save himself a PR nightmare of not being able to recruit a full roster. Either way, you have to feel bad for Kovien.

Unfortunately for Mooney, that maneuver saved him some bad press last year, but this recruiting mess is now a ball rolling down hill gaining speed and is approaching out of control status. Now, here we sit in late Spring, and we have 3 unfilled openings for next year. We will see if that cycle repeats itself. I hope for the sake of the program, he is able to fix this, but based on past historical results, the odds are not in his favor.

 

[97spiderfan]

I have a problem when a school gets a commitment from #14 when you can only have 13. that doesn't seem right. but we've never done that.
I don't know the story, but I doubt we flat out forced him to leave. yes, the conversation may have been that we feel there are kids ahead of him now. but you don't force a kid out in almost April with only 10 other kids on scholarship. we're not looking to open a slot right now. I'm betting he left because he wanted to.

And whether he was "forced" out or not is largely not relevant. I'm sure he realized he wasn't going to play here and that he made the decision that he wants to play basketball. The main fact remains is that he should have never been recruited in the fist place.

This is just as "not right" as schools who over-recruit their scholarship limit. It has the same impact on the kid leaving. We should all feel a bit bad about the way this all went down. Kovien never had a chance, everyone knew that probably from the day after he signed his commitment letter, everyone except for Kovien. If anyone think our program or Mooney has some "moral high ground" over other D-1 programs and other coaches, well that is just laughable.

 

[spiderman]

why exactly was it so clear? yes he's thin. but he's 6'7" and athletic and can shoot. what made it such a sure thing that with development and weight training he still wouldn't develop into a player who could be in the rotation at some point?

there's going to be 800+ transfers again this year. it happens. no, I don't think they were all screwed by coaches who offered them a scholarship but were wrong about if they would fit.

 

[97spiderfan]

why exactly was it so clear? yes he's thin. but he's 6'7" and athletic and can shoot. what made it such a sure thing that with development and weight training he still wouldn't develop into a player who could be in the rotation at some point?

there's going to be 800+ transfers again this year. it happens. no, I don't think they were all screwed by coaches who offered them a scholarship but were wrong about if they would fit.

Because the other 330 plus D-1 schools had no interest in him. You have a 6'7 kind who can shoot and you would think that would garner some attention. He didn't, there is a reason why, he can't play at this level, and no amount of development/weight training is going to change that.

So, either we are terrible talent evaluators or we used him to not look bad and have a several open slots last year. It is one or the other, you can take your pick. To me, it probably some type of combo. Again, it doesn't really matter, we still recruited a kid we had no business recruiting. That hurts the kid and our program.

This was entirely predictable from even a layperson like myself and our staff our supposedly professionals in what they do. 11th year coaches should not be making rookie recruiting mistakes like this. Very sad on a number of levels.

 

[spiderman]

nobody's ever signed a kid not to look bad. I don't know where you get this stuff. we offered him after ANO left us in late May ... which is really, really late. we took a shot at a 6'7" late blooming athletic shooter who averaged 20 ppg as a senior and was still available that late ... maybe because he wasn't an AAU guy. it was worth a shot. it didn't work out. I don't get the drama though.

800 transfers. 2-3 per team. stuff happens.

 

[MrTbone]

I don't think it's some inexcusable event that we offered a guy who didn't pan out. Stuff happens. I believe there are cases where you have an open scholarship and it's ok to take a project player here and there, to see if he pans out. We just can't have large numbers of those (in my mind, no more than two of our 13 scholarships), the rest have to be legit potential players.

I'm willing to give the coaches a pass on Kovien given the situation last summer, but they don't get a pass for repeatedly bringing in 1-2 projects with each class.

 

[97spiderfan]

nobody's ever signed a kid not to look bad. I don't know where you get this stuff. we offered him after ANO left us in late May ... which is really, really late. we took a shot at a 6'7" late blooming athletic shooter who averaged 20 ppg as a senior and was still available that late ... maybe because he wasn't an AAU guy. it was worth a shot. it didn't work out. I don't get the drama though.

800 transfers. 2-3 per team. stuff happens.

It wasn't "worth a shot". It was destined for failure and the coaches should have and probably did know that. This is why you have a wide recruiting net so when something happens like a player unexpectedly transfers, you don't have to go dumpster diving to save your reputation. Right now, we have 3 open ships and have 2 players we are really actively recruiting. So what happens if those 2 players choose another school, we go right back to the "taking a shot" approach. There is a reason we haven't been to the NCAA in 5 years and aren't projected to go next year and it is spelled RECRUITING MISSES. That is obviously fine by you, great. It is not fine by me.

And if it only happens once in while, than yes it is excusable. But this is happening every single year for us, where we are recruiting players who are at best D-2 talent. We are just missing closing with a guy who might be a bench player at a lower mid major, we are missing badly by guys who are not even starting materials for Division 2 teams.

 

[SpiderK]

I will give the staff a break on Kovien too for now with the info we have. However the use of one minute is inexcusable, and should be investigated. I would expect that Kovien wants to play and it has somehow been conveyed to him that it will not be here, so he is moving on. Don't blame a kid for not wanting to sit on a 15 man roster on a team that only plays 7.
As to his talent level, how the hell would any of us know. We never saw him play.

 

[coachfezz]

I think we NEVER look at Euro instead of weak recruits that have left, We never try. Why? waste for players who have left that had very little interest from other schools, Zero Euro recruiting

 

[MrTbone]

It wasn't "worth a shot". It was destined for failure and the coaches should have and probably did know that. This is why you have a wide recruiting net so when something happens like a player unexpectedly transfers, you don't have to go dumpster diving to save your reputation. Right now, we have 3 open ships and have 2 players we are really actively recruiting. So what happens if those 2 players choose another school, we go right back to the "taking a shot" approach. There is a reason we haven't been to the NCAA in 5 years and aren't projected to go next year and it is spelled RECRUITING MISSES. That is obviously fine by you, great. It is not fine by me.

And if it only happens once in while, than yes it is excusable. But this is happening every single year for us, where we are recruiting players who are at best D-2 talent. We are just missing closing with a guy who might be a bench player at a lower mid major, we are missing badly by guys who are not even starting materials for Division 2 teams.

Out of curiosity, why is it not worth a shot? We had a spot to fill, we likely weren't filling it elsewhere, and after one year and at least theoretically not being able to demonstrate A10 level talent, he's leaving. I don't think in this case it wasn't worth a try, so I'm not sure I concur that we don't give him a chance. I just think we don't keep doing it too often and too broadly. Hopefully that lesson has been learned.

 

[wr70beh]

University of Richmond of the A10


Eastern Illinois
Lindenwood
D2 in Texas whose name I forget
Siena
????

Texas A&I, which is now Texas A&M-Kingsville.

 

[97spiderfan]

I guess given the corner we had painted ourselves in with 2 un-used scholarships and no legitimate recruits left to choose from, you could make an argument of "what do we have to lose".

My point was and is, if our coaches are doing their job, we always have other options available and never have to resort to the option that you know is not going to work. This lesson should have been learned the year prior when we did the same thing with Smithen and honestly for a coach doing this 10 or 11 years, this a less that should never have to be learned in the first place.

 

[I-M-UR]

The NCAA is a joke

Exhibit 1 UNC in the NCAA finals

 

[SFspidur]

I don't know how you make sure you "always have other options available" when a schollie opens up by surprise in May.

Can argue about whether the other schollie should have been used, but as some have advocated for, it can be good to keep one open so you can be more active in the transfer market.

 

[97spiderfan]

I don't know how you make sure you "always have other options available" when a schollie opens up by surprise in May.

Can argue about whether the other schollie should have been used, but as some have advocated for, it can be good to keep one open so you can be more active in the transfer market.

How come Wade got hired in April and was able to fill an 3 man recruiting class and sign 2 transfers (5 players) and Mooney can't fill 1 unexpected departure in May?

And we already had an open schollie last year that we gave to Kirby because we couldn't fill that one either.

 

[MrTbone]

How come Wade got hired in April and was able to fill an 3 man recruiting class and sign 2 transfers (5 players) and Mooney can't fill 1 unexpected departure in May?

And we already had an open schollie last year that we gave to Kirby because we couldn't fill that one either.

This is a fair question. One legitimate response would be academics, although everyone will jump on that being some sort of crutch. It's fair to say though that we don't have as deep a recruiting pool as Wade does on admission.

There's always a danger in comparing ourselves to a program that doesn't share the same profile as us. But it is fair to question why we can't pull in some better options, particularly over a multi-year stretch.

 

[spiderman]

How come Wade got hired in April and was able to fill an 3 man recruiting class and sign 2 transfers (5 players) and Mooney can't fill 1 unexpected departure in May?

And we already had an open schollie last year that we gave to Kirby because we couldn't fill that one either.

we'll see how they turn out over time, but didn't those 3 freshmen barely do more than Kovien?

 

[97spiderfan]

Agreed, we do have a smaller pool due to our academic requirements. But still, he has been here 11 years and a guy who is on the job for a month is able to fill 5 slots and we can't fill 1. Kind of shows why VCU keeps going to NCAA's and we don't right there.

 

[32counter]

How come Wade got hired in April and was able to fill an 3 man recruiting class and sign 2 transfers (5 players) and Mooney can't fill 1 unexpected departure in May?

And we already had an open schollie last year that we gave to Kirby because we couldn't fill that one either.

We are in trouble if we can't find players because of our intellectual superiority of admissions.George Washington has the same problem of intellectual superiority but wait a minute-they find players from Dartmouth,Wake Forest and even Argentina and Denmark and Japan.

We use our admissions standards as a crutch,an excuse.Been that way for years.Phony excuse gets you where we are today.4guards and high post pivot guy who transferred into UR rather than ODU.Boy,we were lucky.Thank you,Nancy.

 

[sdspider]

This is make or break time for Mooney. Can be fill the open spots with guys who can contribute? There are certainly plenty of transfers out there so there are no excuses at this point. Let's get it done starting now. Will be interesting to see who comes in.

I agree with all that recruiting has not been up
to par.

 

[WebSpinner]

just want to add that every D-1 team has guys who sit on the bench with limited or trash time minutes. some are happy at that school, know they are not pro material and remain to get their degree. others get better and may contribute their jr or sr years. cannot say that what we are seeing is the norm or way off compared to other programs. based on the fact that we have not danced in a while, seems we are not getting what we need to be more successful. agree that i do not like to run kids off, if the coaching staff makes a mistake, live with it , assuming the young man wishes to remain.

 

[gospidersgo]

I'm frustrated as many of you are, but please let's not point to GW as the shining example of what we want to be. They have ONE tourney appearance in the past 9 seasons and were knocked out in the first round.