Quality and Depth of players

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Those 3 from UVA seemed to play pretty well with high minutes.

The above is no doubt correct. Though if you research deeper, you could form an opinion on why this is so with UVA but probably not with plenty of other schools. Going by Kenpom UVA was dead last at #353 in adjusted tempo meaning of course VERY slow pace of play. Also ranked last the previous two seasons.

Bennett's team rarely fast breaks on offense walking the ball up for the most part and also rarely allow opponents to run the break on them. Less possessions both offensively and defensively. I believe less faced paced physical assertion helps UVA's best perform well even with logging many minutes.

 

[VT4700]

I didn't think anyone could argue against the above statement? Guess I was wrong.

Really? Virginia's starters went 39, 37, 36, 36, and 33 against Auburn, and Jerome only had 33 because of foul trouble. Against TT, 3 of their guys went 45, 44, and 42, and 3 of TT's guys went 41, 41, and 40. I think it is safe to say these guys "competed at their highest level". Same with KA and Harp against Vandy and Rodney Rice against Indiana. This is really getting a little silly here.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Last year Davidson played Grady 37.6 minutes a game and Gudmundsson 36.8. They both seemed to play OK.

Wanted to quickly look at this compared to UVA high player minutes. Bob has slowed it down last couple years. Davidson came at #319 in adjusted tempo this season and in 2018 were #332.

 

[Marley13]

Yes, I think pace of play has a lot to do with playing time. Where are we at adjusted tempo?

 

[VT4700]

Wanted to quickly look at this compared to UVA high player minutes. Bob has slowed it down last couple years. Davidson came at #319 in adjusted tempo this season and in 2018 were #332.

Safe to say UVA had a whole lot more blow outs ( 6 wins by 30+ and 14 by 20+) than Davidson and most teams, so hard to compare. Their starters sat for the final 2+ minutes in a lot of games.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Yes, I think pace of play has a lot to do with playing time. Where are we at adjusted tempo?

#266

 

[VT4700]

Yes, I think pace of play has a lot to do with playing time. Where are we at adjusted tempo?

266 last year. Interesting that Davidson came in at 319, Dayton 322, and St Bona. 330.

 

[VT4700]

The above is no doubt correct. Though if you research deeper, you could form an opinion on why this is so with UVA but probably not with plenty of other schools. Going by Kenpom UVA was dead last at #353 in adjusted tempo meaning of course VERY slow pace of play. Also ranked last the previous two seasons.

Bennett's team rarely fast breaks on offense walking the ball up for the most part and also rarely allow opponents to run the break on them. Less possessions both offensively and defensively. I believe less faced paced physical assertion helps UVA's best perform well even with logging many minutes.

Yes and no. They also bust their butt on defense every single possession. All 5 of them, or they aren't playing.

 

[Marley13]

So Davidson, Dayton, and St. Bona all played slower and won more games than us?

 

[VT4700]

So Davidson, Dayton, and St. Bona all played slower and won more games than us?

Yes. Not surprising since they were better than we were. Our offensive efficiency was 125. Dayton was an impressive 43, Davidson 102, and St. Bona. was 218. St. Bona. was 50 in defensive efficiency, Davidson 98, and Dayton 103. We were 287.

 

[Marley13]

What are some of the biggest defensive efficiency turnarounds lately and are we capable?

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I didn't think anyone could argue against the above statement? Guess I was wrong.

Hi! Welcome to SpiderNation. You must be new here.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Actually, KA and Harp say Hi since they played 40 and 38 minutes against Vandy. And, how about Rice (40), Kratzer (36) and Kenny Atkinson (33) against Indiana? Come on, guys. This is crazy. Give your best players a lot of minutes. If you rest them just to keep them at 30 minutes, you are not giving your team the best chance to win.

Obviously, postseason games are different. It can be easy to forget this since we've only advanced past an A10 quarterfinal once in 8 years. Nobody is arguing we'd limit their minutes in an NCAA tourney game...but you knew that.
That was the point of "when you make history." How many of those guys averaged 38 for the season?

In 2010-11: Against Citadel, Harper played 19 minutes and KA played 21. Against W&M, Harp played 25 and KA 33.

To paraphrase someone I saw on the forum recently, "you're kind of making their point for them."

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Last year Davidson played Grady 37.6 minutes a game and Gudmundsson 36.8. They both seemed to play OK.

Davidson didn't blow a dozen games in the second half when they were 80%+ probability of winning.
All those comebacks didn't come against just our bench. Even homer Bob was commenting on this on the air.

 

[VT4700]

Obviously, postseason games are different. It can be easy to forget this since we've only advanced past an A10 quarterfinal once in 8 years. Nobody is arguing we'd limit their minutes in an NCAA tourney game...but you knew that.
That was the point of "when you make history." How many of those guys averaged 38 for the season?

In 2010-11: Against Citadel, Harper played 19 minutes and KA played 21. Against W&M, Harp played 25 and KA 33.

To paraphrase someone I saw on the forum recently, "you're kind of making their point for them."

Not even close to making their point. We beat the Citadel 79-37 and W&M 73-49. Those were the first two games of the year. The very next game against Iona, KA played 50 minutes. The final 13 games of the season, he averaged over 38 minutes and Harp averaged over 35 minutes. KA averaged over 36 minutes a game over his 4 years year, including games like the Citadel when he wouldn't play as much, and his low was his freshman year of 34.8. So, how exactly does any of this hurt my point that guys should be able to play 34-36 minutes a game without affecting their level of play?

 

[VT4700]

Davidson didn't blow a dozen games in the second half when they were 80%+ probability of winning.
All those comebacks didn't come against just our bench. Even homer Bob was commenting on this on the air.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying Davidson won their games at the end because their starters played a lot of minutes, but we lost ours because our starters played a lot of minutes?

 

[coach fezz]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying Davidson won their games at the end because their starters played a lot of minutes, but we lost ours because our starters played a lot of minutes?

I think winning at end of game starts in practice every day every word , makes stronger in EVERY timeout you call what you say for team with all the WE ARE and WE WILL words, and then shows it pretty face end of game.

I did have good coach one time as youth who used yardstick to help coach defense movement. This is true. It worked and hurt like hell because shorts were veryveryshort then and stick to bare leg sting a little bit. Ha the olden days I smile, I bet you smiling now too!

 

[spiderman]

there's no set "correct" number of minutes every guy should play. each guy is different. and sitting a guy an extra 2-4 minutes in a game doesn't mean he'll now make a shot at the end of a game.

I do think Gilyard's minutes are reduced a little this year. not to save him, but because we have more talent on the roster that we want to get on the floor a little.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Not even close to making their point. We beat the Citadel 79-37 and W&M 73-49. Those were the first two games of the year. The very next game against Iona, KA played 50 minutes. The final 13 games of the season, he averaged over 38 minutes and Harp averaged over 35 minutes. KA averaged over 36 minutes a game over his 4 years year, including games like the Citadel when he wouldn't play as much, and his low was his freshman year of 34.8. So, how exactly does any of this hurt my point that guys should be able to play 34-36 minutes a game without affecting their level of play?

In your glib "so-and-so says Hi" posts, you were using tournament games as examples of games when you were "glad he was not our coach." Of course you're going to ride your stars in the tournament. His point was you have to find opportunities during the season give them rest, so they can do that at the end.

Harper had several games in the 20s that season, and KA had a few.

I think 34-36 is a fine average for your star players, as long as they're getting a fair amount of games around 30 or even below. Gilyard was at 37.3, factoring in one game at 19 minutes and one at 30 (which he played injured). He played 40 minutes 12 times and 39 minutes 5 times - several of those against Quad 4 scrubs.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying Davidson won their games at the end because their starters played a lot of minutes, but we lost ours because our starters played a lot of minutes?

Yes, I conflated two things here, sorry. We're talking about Richmond's players. I was responding to a post which basically said "Well, it worked for Davidson." Well, it didn't work for us. That was my point.

As others have previously pointed out, Grady played a lot fewer total minutes due to the games he missed.

We blew an absurd amount of second half leads last season. There are several reasons for that; tired players may be one.

 

[VT4700]

We can just disagree. No big deal. I just don't think you should make sure your stars have a fair amount of games at 30 or less. KA had 20 games of 38 minutes or more and 25 with 37 or more that year with only 3 below 30, and he seemed to do just fine late in the year when he was playing 38-40 minutes nearly every game. I do agree that we don't need 40 from Jacob, but there is no reason why he can't play 34-36 every single game, with even a few 38s mixed in.

 

[spider23]

Mooney says HI - Now get back to work. Or maybe this is work, who the heck knows.

I like Fezz, post above. Mindset, Day one practice stuff. I was reading an article about Dayton's off season workouts and scrimmages. Very intense - high number of talented players vying for roles. Here, almost every single year we have guys handed the starting positions. Hell, a few posters tried to make a case for Woj or Gus starting and 4700 makes it known that Francis is the starter, that has been communicated internally is my guess.

So we have Gilyard, Francis, Nick, Cayo, and Golden handed starting roles and 30+ and they compete against Verbinskis and Grace inside. And poor Sal is probably screwed. Hope the FMM motivates these guys better than BillboardGate/Restaurant Circle - Big Talk no back up of Coach$$$.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

The final 13 games of the season, he averaged over 38 minutes and Harp averaged over 35 minute So, how exactly does any of this hurt my point that guys should be able to play 34-36 minutes a game without affecting their level of play?

Just as a sidenote that S16 team was #309 in adjusted tempo.

 

[spider fan]

This "fascination" with comparing us to the Hoos has to include more than number of minutes played. Start by checking out the preseason "conditioning" programs of both schools.

 

[VT4700]

Just as a sidenote that S16 team was #309 in adjusted tempo.

Yep. And 41st in offensive efficiency and 54th in defensive efficiency. We have had a few good defensive seasons since then. It can happen.

 

[urmite]

What I think you don't want, is to decide how many minutes a player is allocated prior to a game, and not allow the game situation to affect that decision.
"Oh, we are tied late in a game but your allotted minutes are up so you are coming out."
"Oh, we are up 30 but you allotted minutes aren't up so you are staying in."

What you do want is a group of starters that will build a substantial lead if they are the better team. And backups who won't lose that lead quickly if they come in.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Fair enough.

KA had 20 38+ minute games out of 37 total (6 tournament).
JG had 22 38+ minute games out of 31 total (2 tournament).
I'd like to see that closer to the same ratio.

JG is such a stud he probably wants to play the full 40 every game.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

What you do want is a group of starters that will build a substantial lead if they are the better team. And backups who won't lose that lead quickly if they come in.

Bingo. We had far too many games where we were losing to, or in a dogfight with, teams we should have been blowing out.

 

[spiderman]

Grady played a lot fewer total minutes due to the games he missed.

Grady played 1126 minutes in 30 games. Jacob played 1156 minutes in 31 games.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/individual/628
no idea why we're arguing this other than it's July. would we have been any better if he played 35 mpg last year? most likely not.

 

[UR80sfan]

The much bigger question relative to minutes is will they be concentrated with our 5 starters or spread out across a lot of players like VCU? We should see some of the freshman improve significantly from last year and compete for starting positions. The competition for the following year is going to be even more intense with Crabtree joining and Burton with a year of experience. I think we will see a change in the starting 5 at some point.

 

[GKiller]

I propose Mooney only coaches for 30 minutes. Take a rest during the game. Especially the last few minutes!

Give Steve Thomas the reigns when Mooney is overworked. Steve brings a lot of experience having been under the tutelage of Buzz Williams and Dana Altman.

 

[VT4700]

Fair enough.

KA had 20 38+ minute games out of 37 total (6 tournament).
JG had 22 38+ minute games out of 31 total (2 tournament).
I'd like to see that closer to the same ratio.

JG is such a stud he probably wants to play the full 40 every game.

No doubt he does, but we need to find a couple minutes for him here and there. Take him out a minute or two each half before a media timeout, and he might end up getting about 5 minutes of real rest while missing less than 2 of game time. If no dead-ball happens for a while, you don't have to wait for the media timeout, just call a 30-second timeout and get him back out there. In the first half, you get a use-it-or-lose-it timeout anyway. In the second half, if he is resting for a minute or two and things are not going well, same thing. No need to wait for the media timeout. Just call a timeout then and get him back out there. If things aren't going well, we might want to be calling timeout anyway?

 

[GaySpider]

In your glib "so-and-so says Hi" posts, you were using tournament games as examples of games when you were "glad he was not our coach." Of course you're going to ride your stars in the tournament. His point was you have to find opportunities during the season give them rest, so they can do that at the end.

Harper had several games in the 20s that season, and KA had a few.

I think 34-36 is a fine average for your star players, as long as they're getting a fair amount of games around 30 or even below. Gilyard was at 37.3, factoring in one game at 19 minutes and one at 30 (which he played injured). He played 40 minutes 12 times and 39 minutes 5 times - several of those against Quad 4 scrubs.

 

[VT4700]

Fair enough.

KA had 20 38+ minute games out of 37 total (6 tournament).
JG had 22 38+ minute games out of 31 total (2 tournament).
I'd like to see that closer to the same ratio.

JG is such a stud he probably wants to play the full 40 every game.

Just wondering. Do you intentionally post like this to mislead? First, you post the minutes for KA and Harp against the Citadel and W&M, as if that meant anything in the first two games of the season when we routed both teams. Then, you say KA had "a few" games in the 20s his senior year when he only had 3 out of 37 in the 20s, including just one, a 29 minute game, in his last 32 games. Also, you said Grady played a lot fewer total minutes due to the games he missed, which sman showed was not accurate. Now, you conveniently use the 38 minute number to try to make a point here, when I also showed a 37 minute number. Why not show the 37 minute number? Oh yea, because that would keep Jacob at 22 out of 31, but move KA to 25 out of 37. Geez, man. Not your finest effort here.

Bottom line is KA averaged 34.8, 36.8, 37.1, and 36.2 his 4 seasons here, and Jacob has averaged 36.4 and 37.3 so far. I have been comparing Jacob's minutes to KA's, and showing how a lot of minutes did not affect KA, but I guess in your need to try to prove me wrong, you keep posting some pick and find convenient stats to counter me. Are you really trying to say their minutes are not similar?

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Easy there, snowflake. I only pulled up the first two games of that season; didn't want to make the "effort" to go through every game in 2011. Not my finest. Congrats, or something. As for the 37 minute game thing, 25/37 is still < 22/31, is it not? I suspect that will hold true for 36 minutes, 35, and so on. Pick any number for "X" and I'd bet that the statement "Gilyard got less than X minutes of rest more often than KA" would be true.

Just wondering. Do you intentionally post stuff like
"They don't seed the NIT"
"The committee almost left us out in 2011"
"177 SOS is not that different from 334"
to mislead?

 

[UR80sfan]

Easy there, snowflake. I only pulled up the first two games of that season; didn't want to make the "effort" to go through every game in 2011. Not my finest. Congrats, or something. As for the 37 minute game thing, 25/37 is still < 22/31, is it not? I suspect that will hold true for 36 minutes, 35, and so on. Pick any number for "X" and I'd bet that the statement "Gilyard got less than X minutes of rest more often than KA" would be true.

Just wondering. Do you intentionally post stuff like
"They don't seed the NIT"
"The committee almost left us out in 2011"
"177 SOS is not that different from 334"
to mislead?

Both of you guys post great information, although you have very different views. We all sometime make mistakes when we post info. No big deal. Let's just agree that Gilyard is a great player and some people think he should play a couple less minutes a game while others think he is fine at 37 minutes. Our opinions are not going to change anything.

 

[MrTbone]

Everyone on the roster should play exactly 16.67 minutes. Even Steven.

 

[SpiderDaMan]

I agree that if elite players are playing 34-36 that is no big deal. U want your elite players eating the minutes. A big man like Grant gets less than that, but fine for guards and wings. The comment from SpiderDaMan made no sense. Can't be playing more than 30 mins or get worn out? He says it because he's a VCU fan and that strategy works for them. They do play and recruit well that way but they're more of an anomaly. Virtually all good teams will have 3 over 30. We need better bench production no doubt, I think we can get that this year. Really the only one we need to cut a little is Gilyard to keep him fresher because he also has the ball in hands so much and working harder. Hopefully we can, we should with better depth this year. But we'll still have 3 + over 30. Gilyard likely only one who ends up in the 34-36 range imo but if we have another so be it. A couple other guys will no doubt be in the low 30s and that seems like the norm.

OK, I'll bite. How do you think all the sub 8 minute melt downs happened? It certainly isn't that the top guys all of a sudden became end-bench quality players and even Mooney can't screw things up that badly although he screws an awful lot of stuff up.

It was painfully obvious that the guys were gassed. That's the only way to explain it. Too many minutes for too many guys. Yes, VA had 3 playing a lot of minutes but they also were catching a blow here and there and the other two were plenty fresh. It's a rare team that can only go 6-7 deep and finish off games. Now will there be the necessary depth this year? No one really knows yet. It's all speculation about how the sophs will develop and if a freshman can be good enough for 15 minutes. We shall see.

 

[SpiderDaMan]

Davidson didn't blow a dozen games in the second half when they were 80%+ probability of winning.
All those comebacks didn't come against just our bench. Even homer Bob was commenting on this on the air.

Their players are arguably better and their coach knows where and how to get them rest. He also has guys on the bench that can play.

 

[keefusb]

Guys, please don't feed the Tech, errr, I mean Troll, errr, I mean Tech.


#NoMoreMooneyTruthing