8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
Yeah they are paying one of the top freshman prospects coming in next season like 7 million I hear 🤑
How many transfers do we need next season?
- Thread starter SpiderTrap
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Yeah they are paying one of the top freshman prospects coming in next season like 7 million I hear 🤑
Yeah, it feels like the window to try to go all in with $$ is going to be a small one. Next season and maybe one more before there are some standards applied, at which time I expect things will pretty much shake out to the way they've always been. Either the top schools will offer the most money and everyone else will fall in line beneath them, or everyone will be able to offer a similar amount, in which case kids still will choose the biggest/best programs they can.
If there's a way for the URs of the world to get an advantage, it's during this (brief?) period when there are no rules and we could just throw huge bucks at a couple great players, hopefully make a deep run and get on the national radar for when things even out again. Maybe that buys us some longevity even then.
If there's a way for the URs of the world to get an advantage, it's during this (brief?) period when there are no rules and we could just throw huge bucks at a couple great players, hopefully make a deep run and get on the national radar for when things even out again. Maybe that buys us some longevity even then.
If we aren’t dumb with how we spend our money it’s certainly doable. This might be an extreme example, but let’s say we are operating under the assumption we are allocating $3 million a year for MBB like other A10 schools. Who’s to say we can’t find 2 absolute studs and give them a million each. The other million can be split among the current roster.
The question is whether we go the “let’s give everyone capri suns” route where players are paid the same just for being in the program longer despite talent level difference or pay players their worth to what they bring to the program, even if it means hurt feelings. If it’s the former, then yes this will be more of the same.
Interesting question. This year all of our players are getting paid a different amount based on the NIL contract. It will be interesting to see how we and others do this going forward. In a sports based competition model, the best players get paid the most. I hope that is how it works at least.
You might not keep other good players on the roster.
Rutgers has 2 of the top college basketball players in the country ... and can't win.
And I think that if we and VCU and GMU say we'll pay $3M ... then the P5 will say "oh, we'll make it $6M".
The 2 years down the road you referenced is about the time for the next extension. Somebody plz help us break this disastrous cycle.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
I think if he lays out another non-competitive team like he did this year his seat is hot. But yes, that is Mooney's plan and what he will try to sell Hardt and Queally.
As the pie gets bigger sure (meaning NCAA increases $20 million limit to $30 million). But football will always take priority and they won’t cut into that budget too much for basketball. There are a lot of good basketball players in this world. $1 million was more on the extreme example to prove my point, but we can definitely pay good money for the players we really want. Our priority should always be to keep the players on our roster who are very good first. So trying to keep a Tyler Burton for $500K for instance. But for the others, I wouldn’t try and bend over backwards to keep them happy with NIL. They can either accept and be happy with what they get, work harder to increase their NIL value, or transfer.
I might be in the minority opinion here, but I actually think this idea that Mooney can talk his way out of things won’t fly as much with NIL. Before, donors who were giving to the athletic department in general (not for specific NIL) or even the university probably were more patient in ways because they didn’t have a direct investment in the performance of the team. There was also the academic excuse or players needing time to learn the system. Now, money is going directly to paying players so there is no confusion about it.
Money talks and the rest walks and you can only BS people so much when they’re giving you money with the sole purpose of getting better players. How do you think the conversation will go between Mooney and the board/donors who have him $3 million only to see us have another 20 loss season? “Hey, sorry I wasted all your money but I promise I’ll do better next time. Trust me just wait another 2-3 years.” This won’t fly as much this time around.
In one of his more recent interviews Mooney mentioned the college game becoming pro basketball. His demeanor suggested that he absolutely hates where the game is headed. I think he knows he is on the clock.
Is what I’m saying making sense to people or am I completely out of my mind? We have an opportunity now that has never been the case before, which is we can not only openly pay for players but be on the same level as P5s financially. We absolutely have the money to go and get really good players and also keep our really good players on the roster happy. However, it’ll require a mentality shift from thinking that everyone is a winner and should all get the same NIL based on years in the program to the best players will get paid more even if it hurts some people’s feelings. A bench player for us should absolutely not be getting more just because they’ve been at UR for 4 years vs. a 4 star top high school recruit or top college transfer who we know will make an immediate impact. And this idea that Mooney can convince the BoT and donors to keep giving him that much money despite continued poor results, won’t fly as much now.
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if u really want a new mentality u need a new coach. Mooney has told us his mentality over and over. More NIL to guys that stay. Back to 4-5 year players. Good guys. Stay the course, don't adapt schematically.
Believe him
I think one issue is that Mooney likely will not be all in on the "pay the heck out of the star players" mode. Even if the big donors tell him to do so, he still has to sell the portal transfers on coming. And like Sman, I am not convinced that we will have more to pay the players than the power schools. Even if there is this salary cap concept - I think an SEC team will still find a way to outbid us if they need a guy. Really critical to identify the hidden gems like King - though again not sure that was not a one time find.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
Well, he has had zero trouble navigating these conversations regarding his salary for the past 20 years. You want to talk about wasted money.
I think you're greatly underestimating the amount the big schools will be willing to spend on NIL.
And I have serious doubts a school our size (who currently counts on a very small number of donors for NIL) can keep up.
I'll try and address these in one post rather than replying to each comment. If Mooney wants to stick the course and ride with 4-5 year guys and not either bring in the right players for his system or adapt his system, then he will have results like this every year and should retire, or rightfully, be fired. In my eyes, Mooney deserves another chance this year to see if 2 years ago was a fluke or not. Another abysmal season like this one then I think he should be let go or after 2 mediocre (but not as abysmal seasons).
Conversation now isn't the same as the past 20 years because money is going directly to getting better players to win. So if we don't get better players and win, then there aren't other excuses to hide behind. That falls on him as the coach. Also I think the donors/BoT giving NIL will be less forgiving and want to see better results with the investments, otherwise UR would not have opted into the house settlement in the first place.
I am only basing my analysis off of reports I've seen, which is many power conference schools will follow Georgia's model of how NIL is allocated and that is giving the vast majority to football and about $3 million for basketball and many programs in A10 will allocate $3 million. If that changes and schools are giving $10 million for basketball, then yes we won't compete. If a school like BYU has a donor who wants to give an additional $7 million for the top recruit in the class, then yes we won't compete. But we were never getting the Cooper Flagg's of the world or other 5 stars anyway. There are a lot of talented players in this country who we can get. Think of people like Ian Schieffelin, a 3 star recruit, who went to Clemson. We were in his top 5 along with Clemson, App State, Dayton, and Virginia Tech. Maybe Clemson would have offered $200K or something because they have other top players on their rosters they want to keep or other top recruits that they would prioritize first. If we had NIL back then, we could've offered him $500K if we really wanted him.
Conversation now isn't the same as the past 20 years because money is going directly to getting better players to win. So if we don't get better players and win, then there aren't other excuses to hide behind. That falls on him as the coach. Also I think the donors/BoT giving NIL will be less forgiving and want to see better results with the investments, otherwise UR would not have opted into the house settlement in the first place.
I am only basing my analysis off of reports I've seen, which is many power conference schools will follow Georgia's model of how NIL is allocated and that is giving the vast majority to football and about $3 million for basketball and many programs in A10 will allocate $3 million. If that changes and schools are giving $10 million for basketball, then yes we won't compete. If a school like BYU has a donor who wants to give an additional $7 million for the top recruit in the class, then yes we won't compete. But we were never getting the Cooper Flagg's of the world or other 5 stars anyway. There are a lot of talented players in this country who we can get. Think of people like Ian Schieffelin, a 3 star recruit, who went to Clemson. We were in his top 5 along with Clemson, App State, Dayton, and Virginia Tech. Maybe Clemson would have offered $200K or something because they have other top players on their rosters they want to keep or other top recruits that they would prioritize first. If we had NIL back then, we could've offered him $500K if we really wanted him.
Leafy colleges, with difficult admissions and academic standards aren't for everyone.
More than telling us his mentality, Mooney has showed us his mentality, and look at the results. Sorry but after a pathetic basketball year my frustration is showing. The thing is how can anyone other than enablers and those who slice and dice data really have long term confidence in this program? JC, it’s been 20 years, and look at where we are and look at the discussion points.
There was an ESPN+ article a week or so ago about coaching landscape, current openings, likely openings, 5050s, and then some potential retirements. Mooney and Anthony Grant were in that section.
Im not buying it, and he still seems pretty engaged on game day, albeit also still awful. Id be shocked if he gave up the money on the table too, but just saying it was there.
Right there with you @Ferrum Spider. It is sad, but it simply isn’t fun to watch the Men’s team play. There isn’t going to be any portal magic that suddenly makes the Spiders a top team in the A10. It is going to be a rebuilding year and I already went through that process with Moon at the helm and it wasn’t any fun. Based on recruiting history, CM and staff aren’t going to have a high hit rate. Plus, if the odds are defied, there are new outside threats. I just don’t see it happening.
The Women’s program is a different story and I think Rousell will be around next year. The year after that I am not so sure. So looks like I will be a in the stands Lady Spider fan for at least a year.
I really, really hope that with this new NCAA house settlement, we give a good amount to the women’s team. If we can give Roussell the resources of a P5 WBB program and he sees that we can have top 25 success here, I am hopeful he stays for the long term.
Can we use the NIL money to pay other schools to take a few off our hands?
I have no inside knowledge but here goes for players returning who have had significant time.
Walz - Back - he loves Richmond and wants to be a UR grad and will be the clear leader of the team next year and he won't mind Dusan headed to Euro bball. And no one questions when he sneaks onto the CCV Westhampton course to play and he is welcome to join me at any time.
Tyne - Back - Needs as others have said to not be a primary scorer but will continue to improve.
Soulis - Back for one more year. Realizes he won't start since per Mooney law #234, we can't play two players on the court > 6'9 at a time but he sees good chance of 15 minutes of game and then knows as a junior either here or elsewhere can get good NIL $$$.
Tanner - Will transfer to Southern, Big South, Atlantic Sun, or MEAC and start for his final 2 years,
Beagle - Not sure quite what happened here - but have to think he is on his way out .. headed to Missouri Valley, Ohio Valley, or MAC.
AP - Wildcard - hope he returns after he and coach both go to off-season emotional control sessions realizing AP's had one bad techncal and Coach has had 2.
Walz - Back - he loves Richmond and wants to be a UR grad and will be the clear leader of the team next year and he won't mind Dusan headed to Euro bball. And no one questions when he sneaks onto the CCV Westhampton course to play and he is welcome to join me at any time.
Tyne - Back - Needs as others have said to not be a primary scorer but will continue to improve.
Soulis - Back for one more year. Realizes he won't start since per Mooney law #234, we can't play two players on the court > 6'9 at a time but he sees good chance of 15 minutes of game and then knows as a junior either here or elsewhere can get good NIL $$$.
Tanner - Will transfer to Southern, Big South, Atlantic Sun, or MEAC and start for his final 2 years,
Beagle - Not sure quite what happened here - but have to think he is on his way out .. headed to Missouri Valley, Ohio Valley, or MAC.
AP - Wildcard - hope he returns after he and coach both go to off-season emotional control sessions realizing AP's had one bad techncal and Coach has had 2.
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U were 1 of the biggest champions of Mooney’s extension just months ago. The 1 that put him out 5 more years after a losing season & a 1st rd blowout NIT loss. & when we knew where this stuff was headed. He’s not getting fired in another year. Under any circumstances imo. Any real bball program would but not us. 2 minimum more likely 3 more years. We r stuck due to said contract. Hope that’s not another albatross but fear it is.
We’ve had lot more resources to succeed the last 20 years than we’ve actually produced. The excuses will be the same. everyone else is doing it, it’s hard & who else could we get better than Mooney lol.
Obviously he seems to know how to run a program, get to the top, and stay there. Admirable.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
Huge props to you for keeping track of all his flip flopping, it’s too much for me to keep a handle on
Really good discussion here. Great points all around but nothing really changes until Mooney is gone.
I think one piece your forgetting is the outside NIL - which will still be allowed and be a big part of the P5 pay scales. So while some P5 schools may only allocate $3 million to mens hoops (I actually think it will be more) they will still be able to negotiate those outside deals. And that is a window that I don't see can legally be shut.
So a school can say - we will give you a scholarship and 750K from the University, but we also have a collective and some other relationships that we can get your full NIL package up to $2 million, but only 750K coming from the school.
Its really no different than the state schools paying their coaches. They are on the books with taxpayer money as a salary of 400K, but the other 800K that gets their salary to 1.2 million is from foundation or donation money, not taxes. Same with player - will get a piece from the school, but then also a larger piece from the outside.
But there is nothing to stop a school from going all in on hoops. Could be a school without football or a school who has football but is not very good. Take UCONN for example - they could just throw 10 million at hoops and fully invest there. I could see some schools really making a decision, what is our key sport and go all in. And its likely between basketball and football.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
UConn is in a tough spot with that though because they need to throw enough cash at football to hopefully get it relevant enough to gain interest from the mega conferences.
Potentially - but I have heard on a number of talk shows that coaches are suggesting different conferences for different sports at one school. So your mostly non-revenue sports could play in a more regional conference affiliation. But your big time sports - football and basketball could play in other conferences. They would like to get rid of the entire school plays in one conference, and it might go sport by sport. I don't think it goes to that level of sport by sport, but I could see your bigger sports - football and basketball - having the ability to join a conference all on its own.
I think there will be new leagues (I have seen the name super league used) that would be the new governing body for football and basketball. I would guess that there may have to be 2 separate ones since more colleges/universities are likely interested in basketball. However it is just as probable that the Power conference leaders cut out the small guys. One would think within the super league(s) would be divisions just like the NBA or NFL.
All I am certain of is that this whole thing is going to take years to get settled.
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