LOL. Yes, it is up to the coach. I am glad he is our coach. People I talk with, most of who know the game of basketball, think we would be crazy to let Mooney go. I agree with them. It is the same debate every year. You guys say we win games because of our players and lose games because of our coach. As a result, our coach will always get 100% of the blame and 0% of the credit. That hasn't changed for years, and will never change as long as a guy you all hate with a passion remains our coach.
Probably the worst of the year
- Thread starter Gospiders06
- Start date
Nobody hates your legend, Mooney. We are uncomfortable with the state of the long term .50+ pct program, 11 years between NCAA appearances, and strategies that don't seem to work.
How many of you fellas would hang onto a long term financial advisor if they returned your investments at the Mooney Clip? I know I wouldn't.
I cut and pasted some of your post & changed a few words. There is as much credibility on the flip side as what you posted.
LOL. Yes, it is up to the coach. I am not glad he is our coach. People I talk with, most of who know the game of basketball, think we would be better off to let Mooney go. I agree with them. It is the same debate every year. That hasn't changed for years, and will never change as long as a guy you all enable with a passion remains our coach.
I think I’m giving Dji some run at PG. I didn’t see the game Saturday and thus not how Randolph played, but perhaps him too. I also think roche has to get in and get shots up.
I’d probably drop time off Nelson and Quinn.
I like what Tyler and Bigelow bring, would leave them as is. Not sure about goose, seems better of late but can he be consistent.
Was thinking about the offense yesterday and this statement made me think…are we really running the same offense?
Empirically yes, but we clearly do not have an effective answer in Quinn playing the pivot and with grace out, we’ve resorted to unorthodox guys filling that spot (Tyler, Dji, others less so).
So I guess it’s the same system but it’s dubious to say it’s the same offense when clearly a key cog isn’t very well settled.
sman, I mentioned this somewhere else, but for me, the offense we've run isn't working for these players, in particular the start of games where it often forces the ball to Quinn or is a perimeter passing party that asks no questions of a defense (sorry, I've been watching British WC announcers.)
Square peg type of thing. The press and a more free flowing - and a little chaotic - game has suited the team so far. Yet no changes are being made despite some of the worst start of game first half droughts in memory, even by Moon standards.
Starts of games, points scored by UR:
VMI - 6 points first 6 minutes
UNI - 8 points first 6 minutes
CoC - 9 points first 9 minutes
WSU - 6 points first 7 minutes
SU - 5 points first 6 minutes
TU - 7 points first 11 minutes
WM - 7 points first 6 minutes (had additional 5 and 3 min. droughts as well)
This is when we come out running our sets - the offense. It's flat. Blame it on shooters if you like but I also see an offensive system being run that does not understand how to get the ball in positions to play to guys' offensive strengths and how to get them going. Or a system exploiting what we think is a talent edge we have where more possessions would be beneficial to UR, not fewer. There's a reason Princeton slowed games down - they were at a talent deficit and wanted to minimize total possessions in a game.
Believe you even said maybe this offense isn't suited for Roche. Well, if it isn't suited to an active / in motion player who's a lights out shooter, then it's not good. Because that is basketball's greatest weapon in 2022.
AMEN!! The coach's job is to put his team in position to WIN GAMES NOW. What worked 10 years ago or even last year may not work this year! Find what does work. Every team has different abilities. Are we going to bang our heads against the wall for an entire season trying to turn Quinn into Golden or asking Burton to dribble a lot or just hoping Roche can get some shots in a system offense, or are we going to proactively set our offense up for success?
As a follow up to the start of game stats above, another point:
Richmond has not "won" the first 5 minutes of any game as yet this year. All 8 games, UR has trailed after the first 5 minutes of play. Even VMI.
Richmond has not "won" the first 5 minutes of any game as yet this year. All 8 games, UR has trailed after the first 5 minutes of play. Even VMI.
Essentially it is maddening. Of course, any Spider fan who has watched this team for a long time knows that the "offensive system" is what Mooney loves and it takes time for the players to master it. It is a transition year and Mooney sought transfers with multiple years of eligibility because he knows that one year isn't enough time for players to master running his system. Hopefully a good Drake team brings out the best in the Spiders on Saturday and we end the regression we have seen over the last two games.
Or roche isn’t one of the best players on the team like he was at the CITADEL so he’s getting less shots? This offense is great for Roche, maybe if we had a bit more play making to get him more looks, it might help.
But this team averaged the same amount of assists as turnovers and that’s CM’s fault. He should tell them every single pass to make and tell them when the other guy isn’t open! LMAO
Shooters don’t struggle to master the offense because they just need to shoot. Not asking him to do much else. If you can shoot, you usually have success early in the system. Quite simple.
Yeah, he's only shooting about 45% from three so far this year, clearly he's terrible. 🙄
Kinda tough to get shots early in the system when your point guard stands at the top of the key dribbling for 20 seconds. And yeah, Mooney is telling him to do that. Quite simple, and foolish.
I would argue it makes him out best shooter not best player. I don’t think he’s saying he’s terrible. I certainly don’t think that but I agree with POM the A10 is a step up in competition and is different from the Southern Conf. Also like POM said we need more playmaking and we need to get more paint touches to make the defense react so those kickouts can be there for open shots.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
You won't debate it because you worship mooney like he is the god of basketball. We had a good end of season last year. That was great! However, we always underperform with him on good years and bad years, so how is it such a stretch to consider that we could win another game or 2?
I think your comment also falls under the 'whoa is Richmond' mentality that so needs to be dissolved. Greater things can happen here!
Along the same lines, why can we not question our 0-4 record in close games this year with the same pattern of losing leads in each? We're supposed to believe this happens to every coach. It doesn't. It is not a stretch to imagine a different coach winning a few of these.
Yeah, I don't think he's our best player but I would say he's one of the best, which POM doesn't agree with. I just think when you have a guy who is making almost every other three that he takes, you find a way to get him shots. The irony is that I thought our offense was designed to get shooters good looks, so I don't know what's going on.
the offensive system clearly works. I think it will eventually work for this group too. we're not going to suddenly scrap it and just ask Roche to run around off screens and hunt shots like he did at the Citadel.
replacing senior Gilyard with freshman Nelson is an issue for now. we can try Dji, or Goose, or Randolph ... I think regardless it's a bigger problem than we expected. I'm not sure why the ball gets stuck in Nelson's hands. didn't happen with Gilly. he moved the ball. no way Mooney suddenly changed philosophy and is telling Nelson to hold it. someone isn't moving correctly.
replacing Golden with Quinn is a hit too. still, it's important to note that our 293rd ranked shooting percentage is only that good because of Quinn's 57%! he's by far the only guy hitting a decent percentage. hasn't shot enough, but he's starting to be more aggressive offensively.
plus we miss Cayo offensively. late in the shot clock we'd give it to him and he'd go get his own shot. as good as Bigelow looks sometimes, end of the day he's shooting 32.5%.
replacing the super-seniors it not going as smoothly as any of us hoped. I still like what we brought in this offseason. I figured since they had college experience and success (at marginally lower levels) we wouldn't go through this learning curve. I was wrong.
replacing senior Gilyard with freshman Nelson is an issue for now. we can try Dji, or Goose, or Randolph ... I think regardless it's a bigger problem than we expected. I'm not sure why the ball gets stuck in Nelson's hands. didn't happen with Gilly. he moved the ball. no way Mooney suddenly changed philosophy and is telling Nelson to hold it. someone isn't moving correctly.
replacing Golden with Quinn is a hit too. still, it's important to note that our 293rd ranked shooting percentage is only that good because of Quinn's 57%! he's by far the only guy hitting a decent percentage. hasn't shot enough, but he's starting to be more aggressive offensively.
plus we miss Cayo offensively. late in the shot clock we'd give it to him and he'd go get his own shot. as good as Bigelow looks sometimes, end of the day he's shooting 32.5%.
replacing the super-seniors it not going as smoothly as any of us hoped. I still like what we brought in this offseason. I figured since they had college experience and success (at marginally lower levels) we wouldn't go through this learning curve. I was wrong.
And speeding up the game is where you can use our relatively deep bench to rotate guys in and out (but that won't happen). We play better when our pants are on fire and we are pressing and running (to claw back into games that we get down big in), not when we're being stagnant and running the "offense".
Now people had reservations about Quinn before the year?? He was a huge get for us at the time (I agreed), most people on here believed the drop off from Grant to him would not be a big one. After game 1 people were also already making the Gilyard comparison's for Nelson. Or can we just jump ship after the boat gets a little rocky for some of the takes that were made on here?
I agree the offense works with the right roster. It's a system designed to have 4 or 5 guys on the court that can each handle the ball and shoot. We don't have that right now. So you either have to recruit guys that fit the system or adjust to fit the roster you recruited.
Or, you realize that you have been in every game but one, realize we are only 8 games in with a bunch of new guys, don't panic, give your guys more time to gel, right the ship by conference time, have a very good year IC, and peak at the end of the year.
in theory ... but it worked with Goose, Cayo and Golden as pretty much non-threats from the perimeter last year. it can work woth this group.
we're better offensively when we press because we're not very good when we don't.
but we do give up too many easy baskets when pressing.
Well, I did, but then I bought the hype. Hoping he ends up somewhere in the middle. I had a good source that watched just about every game of his in person last year (former A10 player) tell me he was not athletic enough to play in the A10 - so that definitely influenced and backed up my initial thoughts - which were around his athleticism being a problem. I did go to the cuse game in person and thought he showed some good things. Just worried that he will be able to put it together this season, and stay healthy.
Its interesting to me, I have seen it mentioned by some that Bigs is a definite upgrade over Cayo. I do love Bigelow's game, though the shooting percentages are a concern. But he brings a lot in other areas.
The one area that we lose out is Cayo's post game. We definitely don't have that type of player we can dump it in to, and let him get a bucket or draw a double team. Cayo became very very good at posting and taking guys off the dribble. That is not really Bigs game, and Quinn has shown a few flashes, but not in Cayo's league at all yet.
Each year that goes by we seem more and more adverse to recruiting athletic players 6'8 or bigger, and over the course of a season, and when we step up against p5 teams, it creates problems. Cayo was recruited as a perimeter player, and we listed him as a guard early on. It was a nice job to develop him as a PF, but let's land some guys. While Reed is not athletic, he would have been our best perimeter threat at the 4/5 in a long time.
The one area that we lose out is Cayo's post game. We definitely don't have that type of player we can dump it in to, and let him get a bucket or draw a double team. Cayo became very very good at posting and taking guys off the dribble. That is not really Bigs game, and Quinn has shown a few flashes, but not in Cayo's league at all yet.
Each year that goes by we seem more and more adverse to recruiting athletic players 6'8 or bigger, and over the course of a season, and when we step up against p5 teams, it creates problems. Cayo was recruited as a perimeter player, and we listed him as a guard early on. It was a nice job to develop him as a PF, but let's land some guys. While Reed is not athletic, he would have been our best perimeter threat at the 4/5 in a long time.
Right, how many times does Mooney need to see this stuff work in small increments before he realizes we should be doing it 25+ minutes a game? We have a super athletic team that is deeper than in years past. And what we lack in shooting percentage, I bet we could make up for with fast-break layups.
We're 3-5 after losing 4 games we gave away. We have no chance at an at-large bid, and it's Dec. 7. I'm not sure when we should start to panic if not now.
I will play devils advocate here, I don't necessarily agree it is sustainable over the longer course of a game. We saw Toledo look like a middle school team for about 5 minutes, and then figured it out and started getting point blank looks.
My issue is timing, Mooney is very content to just let the flow of the game keep going and going and going. That is where a guy like JB could switch things up and do si do the other coach and game some extra points and possessions. Mooney seems to be about 3-4 clock minutes behind on these moves.
My issue is timing, Mooney is very content to just let the flow of the game keep going and going and going. That is where a guy like JB could switch things up and do si do the other coach and game some extra points and possessions. Mooney seems to be about 3-4 clock minutes behind on these moves.
Exactly. Adjust to fit your roster like a real coach would do. If it takes you all year to find something that works, you've wasted your biggest chance at post season. It would be nice to go to games with an at-large possibility on the line rather than just attend glorified practices to get ready for the 10% chance you win the tourny.
Excellent post, Sman. I was wrong too. I should have expected more inconsistent play from so many new guys. I thought it would be much smoother from the beginning, but I also do not think it is nearly as bad as many are making it. The close losses are frustrating, but they are close losses, not blow outs, where we have played well at different times throughout the game, and shown what we can do when things are clicking. I think all the guys in the rotation have shown what they are capable of, but most are just a little inconsistent right now.
Roche will get his shots. I'm not worried about that. I knew we would miss Jacob and Grant, but I downplayed how much, and should have known we would see a noticeable drop off, especially the first part of the year. I agree that something is not right when Nelson is dribbling out front for too long. No way is that by design. It could be a combination of just any one guy at times being in the wrong spot, or Nelson being a little hesitant and not quite confident enough to make the right play right now. I have no doubt this will improve greatly with time. I also think we missed Grace a lot while he was out. You know he will be in the right spot, and almost like Grant was, is kind of like a safety net for the offense.
Speaking of being up against the clock, our defense had the Tribe up against it numerous times the other night. Our guys are really busting their butts on defense this year, and that should keep us in nearly every game we play. When our offense catches up to our defense, hopefully sooner rather than later, we will be a very good team.
I was guilty of expecting more from Quinn at the beginning, but I have seen a lot of improvement from him, and he looked good at times on both ends last game. I still expect him to be a huge factor for us this year.
Good point on Cayo. We definitely relied on him down low, especially, as you said, when we were up against the clock. Every team will be up against the shot clock a few times each game because sometimes the defense wins out there. We had that happen with Jacob and Grant out there, so it should be expected to happen a few times now as well. I think we were wanting Quinn to be that post up guy who can bail us out at times, and maybe he still can. With Bigelow shooting a low percentage from outside right now, maybe we post him a little more at times.
I wanted to add that Tyler has been pretty solid so far. He played 40 minutes the other night, he worked hard on defense, he was jumping around on the press, he was active on offense, and it was awesome when he went off in the 2nd half. I wouldn't trade him for anyone in our conference.
I think we have been pretty good defensively when we don't press too. I think a lot of people who want us to press more don't realize that you can't press after a missed shot. We heard on here why did we wait till the 2nd half to press last game. Well, we only made 8 FGs in the 1st half, and between the 11 minute mark and the 1 minute mark, we made 1. Kind of hard to press when that happens.
I just don't think it is as easy to get those 6'8 athletic guys as you think. There just aren't that many tall, athletic bigs out there to recruit and nearly all them go to power schools because they are so rare. I'm not saying don't recruit them. I think we do recruit them. And, I'm not saying it is impossible to land one, but we aren't alone as a non power school who has a tough time trying to land that tall, athletic big. Several power schools don't have that guy either because there just are not that many out there. People hate when I say this, but the power forward position does not exist anymore, so now we have tall, athletic bigs playing AAU who can do a lot more than just post up. As a result, they are wanted by all the power teams.
Are you saying if we are up 6 with 4 minutes left. Mooney DOESN'T tell Nelson to dribble at the top of the key for 45 seconds the rest of the possessions and he DOESN'T say "we will hold the opponent to 4 points"?
Maybe something will change, but Dji has been here 3 years and I still haven't seen him play PG. From what we heard on here, I was assuming he would either share time with Nelson or back him up, but the other night when Nelson was sitting, Goose and Randolph were the main guys. But, it's still early, and things could chang, so maybe he will at some point get some run at PG.
Same reason. There aren't that many versatile, talented 6'8, 6'9 guys out there. But, I hear you. I want to get as many solid players as possible. I wanted Reed too, but I have been pretty happy with our recruiting the last several years.
I will say this. I don't like taking the air out of the ball with 3-4 minutes left. With the 3 point shot, a team can turn a 6 point deficit into a tie in less than a minute. I don't want Nelson out there dribbling for 20 seconds. I don't think the coaches do either. Now, maybe you don't want to chuck up a 3 with 25 on the clock when leading late, but keep running the offense, and if we can get a good look for our guys with 15 on the clock up 6 with 3 minutes left, let's do that. I hear on here how Mooney always has his guards dribble the clock down, but I don't think we saw that a lot with Jacob. He would dribble off some time, but then get us in our offense, and we could get it to Grant at the key, or get it to Cayo when we had to. So, I agree we have seen it a few times this year, and my thinking is it is more an issue because of the new guys instead of being a strategy issue. But, whatever it is, I agree we don't want to keep seeing it.Are you saying if we are up 6 with 4 minutes left. Mooney DOESN'T tell Nelson to dribble at the top of the key for 45 seconds the rest of the possessions and he DOESN'T say "we will hold the opponent to 4 points"?
