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spiderman said:
guess I still wasn't clear. he had 2 years remaining. it was suggested that we could extend but have no buyout after the original 2 years. so essentially he'd still have the same 2 years of guaranteed contract with 2 more years at the school's option. you don't sign that. you got nothing.
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The reason this would have been my offer if I were Hardt is that there was NO reason to extend him at all – he hadn't earned it – but it would have been a way to throw him a final lifeline. "Hey, here's two more years on paper, go recruit and bring in talent, take the next two years and show me you deserve these two extra years. I don't have any reason to offer you a real extension right now, but I'm giving you the possibility of one if you earn it."

The reasons Mooney might have declined the offer:
• He had a better offer to go somewhere else right then;
• He believed he would go to the tournament two years in a row and earn a real extension with a buyout or a better offer from someone else;
• He was ready to move on from UR;
• He doesn't like Hardt.

I think the second one is the only plausible one. Hardt had all the leverage. Mooney hadn't earned an extension, and Hardt had no reason to offer one but did anyway.
 
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spiderman said:
www.coachesdatabase.com

Hot Seat Report - 25 College Basketball Coaches on the Hot Seat

The Coaches Database College Basketball Hot Seat Report lists men's D-I head coaches in danger of losing their jobs and is updated regularly.
www.coachesdatabase.com www.coachesdatabase.com
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I read the Mooney blurb and made a couple corrections as needed . I hope the author doesn't take exception. See below strike-through and change in bold.

Chris Mooney (Richmond)
  • It seemed like Mooney finally had some job security after 2019-20, when the Spiders won 24 games and would have been NCAA-bound. But with high expectations last year and a fast start that included an impressive win at Kentucky, the team fell flat and finished 8th in the A-10. Expectations were high again this year with so much coming back, but the Spiders are four games back at 9-6. Mooney will likely miss the NCAA Tournament again (the second-to-last year of his deal), so we think he is done, but it really doesn't matter since he is a protected coach who will coach at UR forever regardless of results. Conference championships and NCAA appearances are not goals at UR when evaluating coach retention. Mooney will be back next year to lead a much younger team.
 
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Eight Legger said:
The reason this would have been my offer if I were Hardt is that there was NO reason to extend him at all – he hadn't earned it
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he was coming off a 24-7 year and we had a very strong core coming back. sure we could have just let the deal continue. we chose to stick with him and give him the ammunition needed to recruit. but I'm sure he thought he'd dance with that group, and so did Hardt and some of us. it wasn't as one sided as you believe.
 
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spiderman said:
guess I still wasn't clear. he had 2 years remaining. it was suggested that we could extend but have no buyout after the original 2 years. so essentially he'd still have the same 2 years of guaranteed contract with 2 more years at the school's option. you don't sign that. you got nothing.
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Disagree, you still have the appearance of a job in two years. If that’s what he claims he needs to recruit then that might be as good as it gets.
 
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Exactly, the recruits will never know if there's a buyout or there isn't. He can legitimately tell them her has four years left in his deal. That's a win for him.
 
man, I'd love to negotiate with you two. here's nothing, but go tell your wife you got a bonus.
 
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MrTbone said:
Are you CM in this fictitious scenario? You sure as hell wouldn’t get a two year extension out of me.
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no, I'm Hardt (shudders) obviously. you guys are implying you'd sign a 2 year extension with no guaranteed money. heck, I'll give you all the term you want with no guaranteed money. that's barely a contract. I'm not contractually obligated for anything! but you think a coach would sign it.
 
spiderman said:
no, I'm Hardt (shudders) obviously. you guys are implying you'd sign a 2 year extension with no guaranteed money. heck, I'll give you all the term you want with no guaranteed money. that's barely a contract. I'm not contractually obligated for anything! but you think a coach would sign it.
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If he doesn't sign it then he left on his own. I'm good.
 
whampas said:
If he doesn't sign it then he left on his own. I'm good.
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I understand that. but he did sign something. so I think it's safe to say it wasn't what Tbone and 8Legger and maybe others are suggesting ... that we could have offered an extension that gave him no money. because he wouldn't sign that. nobody here would. he just went 24-7 and had the projected #1 or #2 team in the conference returning.
 
It’s amazing what it takes to get a coach fired these days. How the hell is Will Wade still at LSU and Juan Howard at Michigan?
 
spider23 said:
UR and LSU are polar opposites. LSU doesn't care what you do, just win. We don't care if you win, just be clean.

I think we could find a happy medium and win sometimes while running a reputable basketball program.
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Very true. LSU would whore their university out to win a Natty, we won't leave our rooms after sunset to avoid appearing loose.
 
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spiderman said:
no, I'm Hardt (shudders) obviously. you guys are implying you'd sign a 2 year extension with no guaranteed money. heck, I'll give you all the term you want with no guaranteed money. that's barely a contract. I'm not contractually obligated for anything! but you think a coach would sign it.
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I’m implying that he had very limited leverage. Why is it so implausible to you that his money may not be guaranteed? What are his alternatives? He has two years coming that may or may not be guaranteed (we don’t even know what those years included), is he going to try to walk from that if he doesn’t get two more? Where’s he going to go? You’re giving way too much credence that he had some upper hand in this situation.

btw, I’m not suggesting he’s going to extend for nothing, but there’s zero reason to think he somehow maxed out an extension based off the multi-year body of work. Of course Hardt may be an idiot and my argument is predicated on the AD having some reasonable degree of competence and interest in making the tournament.
 
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MrTbone said:
Why is it so implausible to you that his money may not be guaranteed?
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not saying all of it is definitely guaranteed. saying at least part of it is. because we linked a site showing all publicly known head coaching contracts and they all have some level of guarantee. many at 100% but all at something.

it's implausible to think a coach signs an extension that commits him for 2 more years but commits the school to nothing. again, why would he or you or anyone sign that? your argument is that he has no leverage? so then he'd not sign that ridiculous contract and play it out. you didn't offer him anything. I can't believe you think he'd sign a contract giving him nothing just to trick recruits into thinking the school is more committed in him then they are.

if we let him go, he'll be getting paid something.
 
spiderman said:
not saying all of it is definitely guaranteed. saying at least part of it is. because we linked a site showing all publicly known head coaching contracts and they all have some level of guarantee. many at 100% but all at something.

it's implausible to think a coach signs an extension that commits him for 2 more years but commits the school to nothing. again, why would he or you or anyone sign that? your argument is that he has no leverage? so then he'd not sign that ridiculous contract and play it out. you didn't offer him anything. I can't believe you think he'd sign a contract giving him nothing just to trick recruits into thinking the school is more committed in him then they are.

if we let him go, he'll be getting paid something.
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He would sign it because the argument being put forth is that "he has to have four years to recruit". The argument not being put forth is that he deserves it.

It is entirely opaque to recruits, none of them would ever know what the school's actual commitment to CM is, so it's entirely plausible.

and I do agree that he'd be getting paid something elsewhere if he chose to leave, but it's not going to be $1.3M. So he could very easily decide that his best play is to take 2 non-guaranteed years that allow him to recruit better and gives him a chance to be successful.

I am not an agent or a lawyer and know little about the best practice for contracts of a D1 basketball coach, but I write a lot of contracts and am skilled at negotiating and if I'm offering anyone a contract where they have had dubious historic performance, I am building plenty of outs into the agreement so that if that signatory isn't executing I am not holding the bag if I terminate them. But hey, maybe that doesn't happen if UR doesn't seem to really care about performance on the one metric they stated they cared about 3 years ago, which was making the NCAA tournament.
 
MrTbone said:
He would sign it because the argument being put forth is that "he has to have four years to recruit". The argument not being put forth is that he deserves it.

It is entirely opaque to recruits, none of them would ever know what the school's actual commitment to CM is, so it's entirely plausible.

and I do agree that he'd be getting paid something elsewhere if he chose to leave, but it's not going to be $1.3M. So he could very easily decide that his best play is to take 2 non-guaranteed years that allow him to recruit better and gives him a chance to be successful.

I am not an agent or a lawyer and know little about the best practice for contracts of a D1 basketball coach, but I write a lot of contracts and am skilled at negotiating and if I'm offering anyone a contract where they have had dubious historic performance, I am building plenty of outs into the agreement so that if that signatory isn't executing I am not holding the bag if I terminate them. But hey, maybe that doesn't happen if UR doesn't seem to really care about performance on the one metric they stated they cared about 3 years ago, which was making the NCAA tournament.
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Seriously just asking, do any of your signees have professional agents negotiating for them? I am sure they have lawyers read over any contracts they may sign.
 
spiderman said:
man, I'd love to negotiate with you two. here's nothing, but go tell your wife you got a bonus.
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Negotiation happens when both sides have something the other wants. In this scenario, if I were the AD and you were Mooney, you would have nothing that I want and I would have everything that you want. You can take my offer and make the most of it or go pound sand.
MrTbone said:
He would sign it because the argument being put forth is that "he has to have four years to recruit". The argument not being put forth is that he deserves it.

It is entirely opaque to recruits, none of them would ever know what the school's actual commitment to CM is, so it's entirely plausible.

and I do agree that he'd be getting paid something elsewhere if he chose to leave, but it's not going to be $1.3M. So he could very easily decide that his best play is to take 2 non-guaranteed years that allow him to recruit better and gives him a chance to be successful.

I am not an agent or a lawyer and know little about the best practice for contracts of a D1 basketball coach, but I write a lot of contracts and am skilled at negotiating and if I'm offering anyone a contract where they have had dubious historic performance, I am building plenty of outs into the agreement so that if that signatory isn't executing I am not holding the bag if I terminate them. But hey, maybe that doesn't happen if UR doesn't seem to really care about performance on the one metric they stated they cared about 3 years ago, which was making the NCAA tournament.
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Yep, all of this. Essentially it would have been two "option" years, which gave him a chance to earn them with solid performance.
 
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Eight Legger said:
Negotiation happens when both sides have something the other wants. In this scenario, if I were the AD and you were Mooney, you would have nothing that I want and I would have everything that you want. You can take my offer and make the most of it or go pound sand.
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yes, I fully understand that you and others here wouldn't offer him anything. you wouldn't even offer him this hypothetical nothing contract. because you've wanted him gone. I'm saying (repeating) that I bet Hardt did offer him something. because nobody offers nothing, and nobody accepts nothing.

but if we lose tonight I think we'll hear more details about it.
 
You're interpreting it as nothing, when actually it would have been the chance to earn another $2.6 million over two years -- a chance that didn't exist at all at that point without the offer. To me, that's not nothing. And again, he could have freely turned the offer down and gambled that after another year or two (while recruiting with only two years remaining on his deal), his team's performance would prompt a better offer from Hardt or someone else.
 
Eight Legger said:
You're interpreting it as nothing, when actually it would have been the chance to earn another $2.6 million over two years --
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yes, after two years he'd have a chance to earn $2.6 million ... if Hardt chose to pay it. with no obligation.

as opposed to without this hypothetical BS extension, in two years ... he'd still have the exact same chance. or a chance to earn more if he danced.
 
Well first, the extension option would have given him a chance to improve recruiting and therefore his odds to get the extension to kick in. And in my scenario, he could have added some automatic clauses. If you win the A10, it kicks in. If you make the NCAAs, it kicks in. Etc.
 
Eight Legger said:
If you win the A10, it kicks in. If you make the NCAAs, it kicks in. Etc.
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ok, I like that. not sure it's been done before, at least not per that website of contracts. but I'm in favor of incentivised contracts. at least you're giving him something. maybe the salary increases in the case where he meets those goals.
 
Those sorts of incentives are pretty standard...$50K for making the tournament, and then more for each round you advance, for example. Usually a bonus for winning conference coach of the year, sometimes a bonus linked to academic performance, etc.

They're typically small numbers relative to the guaranteed salary, but it would be interesting to see deals with heavier incentivization. Of course, that also provides more temptation to bend the rules or cut corners somehow toward a win-at-all-costs mentality.
 
SpiderK said:
Seriously just asking, do any of your signees have professional agents negotiating for them? I am sure they have lawyers read over any contracts they may sign.
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No, they have Procurement peeps doing that. Then the lawyers get their mitts on it.
 
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SpiderTrap said:
How about Todd Golden from San Francisco. Maybe he secretly sent Hovde out here to scout out the Richmond area and administration, knowing Mooney might be on the way out, and this would be a good place to come following SF. 1 million in Richmond, VA goes a lot further than 1 million in San Francisco. No idea what he gets paid out there, but he has done a very good job with SF.
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May need to revive this thread once Mooney gets a P6 job after this season, so worth noting that Todd Golden will be taking over at Florida.
 
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