Mens - @ William and Mary Wed 12/18 7pm Flo

[Spider B]

After 25+ yrs, this is likely my last yr.....

I was a season tickets holder for over 30 years. Gave them up 3 years ago. I used to be an active poster on here, but I'm much more of a casual fan now. I'll watch games if if I can and if they are on TV. I realized a couple years ago that I cared more about winning than the administration at UR. Add to it some of the things going on at UR and it just isn't a priority for me any longer. Pretty sad, but this is what UR is now. Bob said a few years ago that UR would just find new fans anyway. CM is a product of what the administration has created in the Robins Center. While I think he's an average (being nice) at best coach, I don't blame him for not leaving. The issue with UR basketball is much larger than CM. Apathy set in for me a while ago and I suspect it will do the same to other long time fans as this season goes on.

 

[spider23]

Agree, there seems no path to the success many of us want in any kind of near term. Let's just say Mooney decided to leave. Do we really think Hardt will pick an awesome new guy? Yes Roussell was a good hire, but that was lucky in that he pulled him over from his previous place of employment. Don't have faith in him to find a gem in this case.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

The thing I think I was most surprised about tonight was that we weren't willing to go zone to slow them down AND we were weren't willing to run with them. I don't understand those two things together, AT ALL.

If you wanna play man-to-man and you're getting decimated on the defensive side, then at least run with them and see if you can outscore them.... certainly you have to at least pretend that they're not more talented than us, right? Again, its f'in William and Mary.

But, instead, we struggled to beat the press the entire second half .... and when we did .... with them having three guys stuck in the back court... we'd still pull the ball out and try to set our offense with like 12 seconds left on the shot clock.

If that's the plan on offense why not go zone and try to slow the game down on the defensive side also? If you're not willing to go zone, then run with them. But the combination of those two things, strategically, makes ZERO sense to me. None at all.

And truthfully, im not sure what pains me more.... the fact that it appeared like we had no comprehensive plan.... or the fact that William and Mary dominated us athetically tonight. William and Mary. Seriously. Its William and Mary. Im kinda dumbfounded.

This legitimately looked like a mini VCU game. We were lost and getting pushed around. By William and Mary. Please dont make me say it again. I can't bear it.

Because you don't go zone against a team that is already crushing you from distance. That's not a good choice.

I did not pay for Flo, so didn't watch, so I'm only guessing based on the radio call, but it sounded like we continually over-helped and left guys open, and sagged off their big men at the top of the key. So same stuff that's been burning us in prior games. So the adjustment isn't "go zone", it's STAY CONNECTED TO THE GUY YOU ARE GUARDING AND DON'T EFFING RUN 30 FEET AWAY TO HELP ON SOMEONE ELSE

 

[whampas]

Quit!? He's making > a million/ yr with zero pressure......he's not going anywhere! #cushyjob

Said in jest. We know he won't get fired so one has to hope for some other way out of this shitshow. Merely pulling at straws.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

First, Roche should not start due to how poorly he plays defense and is one dimensional on offense.
Put Nescovic and AP in together. If team starts backing our guards into the low post, put Tanner in earlier
since he can handle the ball. Hunt and Tyne were man handled last night. Beagle needs to cover the lane better
and keep opposing bigs from driving the lane so easily. With White out, are we missing a lot of guard speed and
scoring?

 

[ur2K]

The thing I think I was most surprised about tonight was that we weren't willing to go zone to slow them down AND we were weren't willing to run with them. I don't understand those two things together, AT ALL.

If you wanna play man-to-man and you're getting decimated on the defensive side, then at least run with them and see if you can outscore them.... certainly you have to at least pretend that they're not more talented than us, right? Again, its f'in William and Mary.

But, instead, we struggled to beat the press the entire second half .... and when we did .... with them having three guys stuck in the back court... we'd still pull the ball out and try to set our offense with like 12 seconds left on the shot clock.

If that's the plan on offense why not go zone and try to slow the game down on the defensive side also? If you're not willing to go zone, then run with them. But the combination of those two things, strategically, makes ZERO sense to me. None at all.

And truthfully, im not sure what pains me more.... the fact that it appeared like we had no comprehensive plan.... or the fact that William and Mary dominated us athetically tonight. William and Mary. Seriously. Its William and Mary. Im kinda dumbfounded.

This legitimately looked like a mini VCU game. We were lost and getting pushed around. By William and Mary. Please dont make me say it again. I can't bear it.

Why would the coach make adjustments in game now, hasn't done that in 20 years?

Only hope for this crew might be to go back to Oumar Sylla ball and slow things down since we can't seem to stop anyone. Giving up 90+ regularly isn't going to work.

 

[spider23]

Yes, two small guards is an issue on D - in addition to all our other D issues.

Even our NCAA years - the first two under Mooney had big/normal size guards at the off guard - Gonzo and Brothers. Then we had big guard in Goose for the last one. Heck, I even remember Gravelle Craig's freshman year - Tarrant said he was one of our best players - but too small when we played him next to Atkinson.

 

[Eight Legger]

It's hard to be a great offensive team in this system when you are getting nothing out of the 2-guard spot.

 

[spiderman]

Woof. Hopefully moon and the W&M Princeton guy were able to get a nice dinner after the game - maybe Paul’s Deli or out for some pancakes.

Take a look at this Dutch masterpiece

View embedded media

this is a great video. wish it went back a second more, but the whole problem starts when Dusan gets blown by on the drive. it forces help from AP who does a good job there but sends us into a scramble. Hunt is forces to cover 2 weakside guys. he recovers to the ball well. AP then scrambles back to his man, the open shooter ... just doesn't break down on the close out. the guy probably would have shot over the breakdown anyway. but (as usual) our bad defense started with bad on-ball defense forcing a ton of scrambling help.

 

[97spiderfan]

The reality is I see it: There are so many problems with this team on both sides of the ball, pinpointing just one or two and trying to be better at is not going to overcome the overall roster deficiencies.

This is of course all on Mooney. He got a bunch of mediocre players out of the portal. His high school recruiting remains at has for the past 5 years, terrible. Our roster is terrible. We have a bunch of unathletic guys in our front court and our back court are two undersized guards, one of which plays like someone set his hair on fire at all times. The only guy on our team that would start on any legit A-10 team is Delonnie. And no, Mr. 55% is not gonna win with the level of talent we have on the floor. He is going to flop, flounder, and gasp for air like a fish out of water these next few months.

The result is we have what I think will be one of the 2-3 worst teams in the league. It looks like Duquesne and us are in the competition. Maybe some other team suffers a bunch of injuries and joins us. Teams like VCU and Dayton are going to destroy us, we will be playing in the play in games in the A-10 tournament.

 

[Eight Legger]

What I really and honestly don't get is why Mooney would not try something different. We suck. It's evident that we suck. We are not getting any better – we are actually getting worse! So we have 3 months to try to completely turn things around. Is it more likely that we will do that by continuing to try the same approach that so far has resulted in a 2-7 record against D1 opponents OR by trying something completely different? This is a pretty basic concept, but apparently a foreign one to him.

 

[spider23]

What I really and honestly don't get is why Mooney would not try something different. We suck. It's evident that we suck. We are not getting any better – we are actually getting worse! So we have 3 months to try to completely turn things around. Is it more likely that we will do that by continuing to try the same approach that so far has resulted in a 2-7 record against D1 opponents OR by trying something completely different? This is a pretty basic concept, but apparently a foreign one to him.

It goes against his system, and idea that he is building for the future, but by the time the future gets here he will have 90% new roster.

Still curious to find out what the big NIL donors think? Are they mad at their ROI, .....OR are they sad that they didn't spend enough to get big time players?

 

[mr.spider]

I logged on out of curiosity and amusement to see what the pulse was on here. I have no attachment or emotion tied to the results anymore, which is really sad because I used to be an all-in guy. I would feel strong emotional joy or hurt depending on the outcome. Not anymore. Partly because of Mooney and no upside with him and partly because of loyalty & pride lost out of the NIL era.

I'm enjoying watching the women! They have passion, a coach that knows what the hell he's doing and cares deeply about winning. Plus, NIL is not as strong on that side and so there seems to be more pride and loyalty.

 

[VT4700]

Yes, two small guards is an issue on D - in addition to all our other D issues.

Even our NCAA years - the first two under Mooney had big/normal size guards at the off guard - Gonzo and Brothers. Then we had big guard in Goose for the last one. Heck, I even remember Gravelle Craig's freshman year - Tarrant said he was one of our best players - but too small when we played him next to Atkinson.

Two small guards are not always an issue on defense. We had one of our best defenses ever in 2020 with Jacob and Blake starting and playing a ton of minutes. But, with our roster this year, and with our guards just not being as good defensively as Jacob and Blake, I agree it's a factor this year. This is what happens when you lose 4 starters, you recruit poorly the last several years, and don't find portal magic this year. It's just a slow, non athletic, bad roster. And, yes, it is on the coach when the talent level is not there.

 

[VT4700]

What I really and honestly don't get is why Mooney would not try something different. We suck. It's evident that we suck. We are not getting any better – we are actually getting worse! So we have 3 months to try to completely turn things around. Is it more likely that we will do that by continuing to try the same approach that so far has resulted in a 2-7 record against D1 opponents OR by trying something completely different? This is a pretty basic concept, but apparently a foreign one to him.

I agree. I think you have to try something different. Not only 2-7 against D1, but 2-4 against Q4.

 

[spider23]

Two small guards are not always an issue on defense. We had one of our best defenses ever in 2020 with Jacob and Blake starting and playing a ton of minutes. But, with our roster this year, and with our guards just not being as good defensively as Jacob and Blake, I agree it's a factor this year. This is what happens when you lose 4 starters, you recruit poorly the last several years, and don't find portal magic this year. It's just a slow, non athletic, bad roster. And, yes, it is on the coach when the talent level is not there.

True, that was a good defensive unit, with Jacob and Blake. Gilly was an all time great NCAA steal guy though. Blake was tough, but the eye test says he is about 3-4 inches taller than Tyne, despite what they may be listed at.

 

[VT4700]

It goes against his system, and idea that he is building for the future, but by the time the future gets here he will have 90% new roster.

Still curious to find out what the big NIL donors think? Are they mad at their ROI, .....OR are they sad that they didn't spend enough to get big time players?

We got no impact players from the portal. If we spent NIL on all 5, we would have been better off spending big on 1 or 2 impact guys, and then just filling out the roster with fits.

 

[spiderman]

What I really and honestly don't get is why Mooney would not try something different.

speaking of ...
W&M's biggest guy is 6'8".
Beagle only plays 21 minutes and goes 5-5 from the floor and 7-10 from the line for 17 points.
Walz only plays 15 minutes and goes 3-4 and 5-5 ... 11 points.
that's 28 points and 11 boards from the 5 spot in 36 minutes, with one missed shot.

what, we have to match up size-wise to defend W&M? how are we going to cover the perimeter?
uh, our 2 bigs scored 28 points on 16 possessions (including FTs). that's like shooting 87.5%.
don't matchup with W&M. make W&M matchup with us!
we had an advantage and chose not to use it.

 

[VT4700]

True, that was a good defensive unit, with Jacob and Blake. Gilly was an all time great NCAA steal guy though. Blake was tough, but the eye test says he is about 3-4 inches taller than Tyne, despite what they may be listed at.

The heights would be the same as far as Jacob/Tyne and Blake/Hunt. But, just look at the difference here. A+ (Jacob) and A (Blake) defenders then and maybe average Cish defenders now.

 

[VT4700]

speaking of ...
W&M's biggest guy is 6'8".
Beagle only plays 21 minutes and goes 5-5 from the floor and 7-10 from the line for 17 points.
Walz only plays 15 minutes and goes 3-4 and 5-5 ... 11 points.
that's 28 points and 11 boards from the 5 spot in 36 minutes, with one missed shot.

what, we have to match up size-wise to defend W&M? how are we going to cover the perimter?
uh, our 2 bigs scored 28 points on 16 possessions (including FTs). that's like shooting 87.5%.
don't matchup with W&M. make W&M matchup with us!
we had an advantage and chose not to use it.

We scored 87 points. Our offensive efficiency was really good, so hard to complain about that end last night.

 

[spiderman]

We got no impact players from the portal. If we spent NIL on all 5, we would have been better off spending big on 1 or 2 impact guys, and then just filling out the roster with fits.

even if we offered a high major kid high major NIL, he'd still pick the high major.

 

[VT4700]

even if we offered a high major kid high major NIL, he'd still pick the high major.

I didn't say anything about high major. We are 2-4 against Q4 teams. How about offering some top mid major type guys next year? Guys that other good mid majors would want.

 

[spiderman]

We scored 87 points.

perhaps we score more giving the ball more to the guys shooting at an 87.5% eFG clip?
perhaps our 2 point defense would be better than letting W&M shoot 18-29 (62%) from 2?
perhaps we wouldn't give up 12 offensive rebounds?

 

[spiderman]

I didn't say anything about high major. We are 2-4 against Q4 teams. How about offering some top mid major type guys next year? Guys that other good mid majors would want.

all the guys we got and offered had plenty of other offers. the portal is a seller's market.

 

[VT4700]

perhaps we score more giving the ball more to the guys shooting at an 87.5% eFG clip?
perhaps our 2 point defense would be better than letting W&M shoot 18-29 (62%) from 2?
perhaps we wouldn't give up 12 offensive rebounds?

So, play Walz and Beagle together? Sure. Worth a try.

 

[GKiller]

I agree. I think you have to try something different. Not only 2-7 against D1, but 2-4 against Q4.

Ironically that is the exact thing we've been saying about Moon tenure. Maybe u will finally get off that train that u, a few others and the admin have advocated. The Extend Mooney/Could not sell pussy on a Troop Train.

24 years. Try something different. It would be fine if there was good overperformance but we've actually gotten underperformance.

Also trying something different would have been burning those redshirts a few weeks ago. Clearly not happening. There is no reason to do anything different. Why would u. He's been rewarded regularly for the opposite, for the status quo. Try to build up in 3 years and get a little fortunate.

 

[VT4700]

all the guys we got and offered had plenty of other offers. the portal is a seller's market.

Plenty of offers from who? I'm not sure where you are going with this.

 

[spiderman]

So, play Walz and Beagle together? Sure. Worth a try.

right? not saying in every situation. but we had a huge advantage with them last night.

 

[spiderman]

Plenty of offers from who? I'm not sure where you are going with this.

you think we were the only team offering AP, Beagle, Dusan and GW3?

 

[spider23]

even if we offered a high major kid high major NIL, he'd still pick the high major.

I am in agreement with you here for the most part. All things being equal (the $ of course) a player is typically going highest level, most pub, etc. BUT, there are exceptions. And this an area that top mid major guys and programs exceed. St. Mary's finds these players. SDSU finds these players and beats them out enough to be top 25ish a lot of years. Mooney does on occasion ( I would consider Harper and to lessor extent Burton these type of talents) , but not at the clip the really good mid majors do. For instance, Utah State has guys that are in the rotation for the Cleveland Cavs and the Boston Celtics. You have to be able to find them, and then get the commitment - Have to SELL the opportunity. Curtis Blair had ACC offers and so did Jarod Stevenson. Tarrant and Beilein were able to sell the opportunity. We did get Dji as well, that was a good example of Mooney using a connection with Manning, who happened to get fired - and Wake's new coach not valuing Dji. But nice job of working to get a guy that was an ACC/SEC talent. You have to find and cultivate relationships and battle every minute to get players of that caliber. It can be done. We just don't have the coach that can do it on a consistent or semi regular basis.

 

[8legs1dream]

It's just a slow, non athletic, bad roster. And, yes, it is on the coach when the talent level is not there.

 

[VT4700]

you think we were the only team offering AP, Beagle, Dusan and GW3?

No. My point was if we focused on paying all 5 of these guys some decent money, try something different (that's the theme here) next year. Find a couple studs that you know will make an impact and give them the most money. Worry about the rest of the roster after that. My question to you would be do you think there are transfers who are playing at mid majors now who got better offers than the guys we got? I say yes. I don't think we landed some of the top mid major transfers out there.

I liked out transfers when we got them. I even wanted GW3 to start. LOL! But, looking at things now, I wouldn't want to go this same portal route next year of Dartmouth, Alabany, West Mi, and 2 guys from majors who didn't see the court. So, my point is try something different next year. Give an impact guy or 2 the money.

 

[spider23]

I get 4700's point. If we are able to land 2 impact guys by offering more NIL $, I do think their is more opportunity to fill in role guys. For example last year we were able to grab Tyler Harris. He probably would not command big bucks, but he was a very valuable role player.

 

[spiderstudent17]

We got no impact players from the portal. If we spent NIL on all 5, we would have been better off spending big on 1 or 2 impact guys, and then just filling out the roster with fits.

That is an interesting point and something I have thought of too. Would you rather try and spend big on 2 guys you feel very confident will be impact players or spend less on each player for 3-4 guys who have potential and could make an impact but not as confident (like AP and GW3 not getting much playing time but at programs like UConn and Michigan)?

 

[spiderman]

we all thought we landed 5 impact guys. it hasn't worked so far but it's not all on them.
Dusan shows signs, though I think we saw that he wouldn't be a lock down defender. but he can score.
AP has been slow coming around. if we were impatient we'd give up on him and go another way ... maybe even the redshirts. but I think we're being smart here. he's better than he's shown. 5-5 from 3 last night is no joke. and he rebounds.
Beagle is a really good big man. I'd love to see him as a big 4 next to Walz. I think he'd be a handful.
and I guess we're waiting on B Artis. guess he can't get healthy.

we went after some highly thought of guys. I was excited about the Manon kid that chose Vanderbilt. we'd probably have had to double our NIL offer to get him. and he's averaging 5 ppg at Vandy. there are no guarantees.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Winning on the road is hard.

Like 2021 hard.

Expecting different results at this point is on us for buying in (aka, crazy.)

 

[97spiderfan]

but I think we're being smart here.

Strongly disagree.

 

[Gallipoli]

Wow. I am glad I missed the game.

 

[spiderman]

Strongly disagree.

you think we should bail on AP?

 

[MrTbone]

Only hope for this crew might be to go back to Oumar Sylla ball and slow things down since we can't seem to stop anyone. Giving up 90+ regularly isn't going to work.

I already dislike losing fast, pretty sure I’d detest losing slow.