I never said bad seasons were because of everything other than coaching. And, I have said more than once I thought Mooney had a bad year last year. I also think Tony Bennett has had some bad years. But, I can separate that from just wanting to fire people all the time. This whole debate, if you can call it that, only started because EL erroneously mentioned our program makes all these excuses, and then someone else replied to a post of mine and said it must be coaching and recruiting related. Then, EL, of course, had to keep being EL, saying I am blaming players and all the other typical nonsense he puts on here, making it hard to have any normal discussion about anything. The bottom line is, I don't want Mooney fired, and most on here do, so chances are there will be little or no agreement between us when it comes to discussing our coach.
Left Behind Again?
- Thread starter mojo-spider
- Start date
Fair enough. You have a very different lens than a large group of board participants, as is your prerogative. We don’t all have to agree.
As for EL, he’s responding to adjacent arguments with asymmetric arguments. The back and forth is like a good tennis match. One of you is McEnroe, not sure which.
Whatever. I don't think FCS football players should expect to get much NIL. If football is the main sport, maybe, but it is not here. What do they really expect? Do they think they can just go anywhere in our conference and get money from other programs?
We speak of donations and number of donors - but realistically, do you think the administration cares a whole lot about that? A school with the endowment of ours and big donors out there, as long as those people are happy - and giving their normal amounts - I think that is all they ask. Its not like the UR athletics is trying to push the envelope and making a big donation campaign for some major project that will put us over the top in any one sports. Last one I can think is the football stadium and basketball practice facility and the football took way too long to raise the funds, and the practice facility was announced, postponed, and then announced again - so again, way late and took forever.
I just don't get the sense UR - for athletics purposes, care a whole lot about donations. Maybe on the academic side they care a lot more, for ranking purposes and endowment size - but not so much on UR athletics side.
I just don't get the sense UR - for athletics purposes, care a whole lot about donations. Maybe on the academic side they care a lot more, for ranking purposes and endowment size - but not so much on UR athletics side.
I am part of the problem? Because I support our program and am more positive about us than most on here? And, what exactly is "the problem"? Was winning the A-10 tourney and beating Iowa in the dance part of "the problem"?
I wasn't familiar with your board name, so I just checked some of your past posts to see what you were about on here. Well, not only are the past several ones I saw all negative, but you talked about being embarrassed to wear Spider apparel and about selling your Richmond tickets. So, if someone like you cringes everytime you read a post of mine, that makes me feel pretty good about myself, and I must be doing something right on here.
VT, lighten up. Go have a beer. Grill some burgers.
Enjoy Independence Day!
Enjoy Independence Day!
Funny that you would see my post and say this to me, but ignore the post I replied to. But, anyway, same to you, and I hope you have a great day today!
I usually let stuff like this go but will speak up this time.
Maybe football should be the main sport. Sure, it is FCS but over the years has proven much more a contender in its own right at it's level. Football has put more players at the NFL level than any other sport has put at respective top professional levels just as a general observation and that is at least some exposure for RIchmond. Multiple conference championships are exposure and A National Championship at any level is great exposer. Being one of only three private schools to win a National FCS Championship is a great recruiting tool for players that are smart and good to great, but not elite athletes, thus exposure.
Richmond's "flagship sport" getting in the NCAA tournament one of ten years (and no the NIT does not count as FB does not have a second chance at an also ran tournament) and taking three G League or maybe NBA level players (two of which were sixth year) to do it certainly was more exposure but does not move the needle much towards keeping Richmond in the conversation, when they follow up as a bottom feeder in a one bid conference the next year. Dang the roster has an open scholarship spot, last I saw, damn recruit a two-sport guy and release him to the FB team until Nov 1 (just kidding).
Of course, these are my opinions and I know they are not the prevailing thoughts of the University or fan base, but slighting FB will not help the BB program.
Now to the point of the reply, I read the tweet to mean the players were not aware the program even existed, so they did not know they could even apply. The loyal player(s) being referenced that are near finishing up their time at Rickmond and are guys that could have gone FBS in a flash for their final year or two, no question, but they were loyal to their teammates, coaches, and school and stayed for their final year (to their credit so did the basketball guys the one year and so did Burton this past year). This particular player mentioned in the tweet was just named the number one returning player in FCS to wear his number by Hero Sports and one of football's other guys (a couple more will be contenders with their number as well) will likely get the same recognition from that same organization in a few weeks. The football team lost a grad last year that just got drafted in the third round of the NFL draft but I did not get the impression NIL had anything to do with that one, and 5 more grads this year that will start or at the very least be in the two deep for their new FBS schools, those type players are game changers at the FCS level, and if a little NIL fund like the group is trying to get up will help keep them here, I commend the folks making the efforts if they pass some on in these situations. Our football players seem to come here and hang around to get a Richmond degree (they did lose an undergrad a couple of years ago that will likely end up in the NFL but made sure he was also in Dave Clawson's good hands to get prepared to get ready just like Coby Turner last year, who is mentioned above, so they both ended up at a great academic school for their degrees or masters work ), but some of the players are showing they are willing to start and/or get a master's degree elsewhere and football redshirts more than other sports when possible, so fifth year grad players will always be around in FB once covid years expire. If NIL keeps players here the coaches want or need for what should be their most productive football year to start and/or get a master's degree more power to the guys that make the money happen and I hope it gets recognized as a way Richmond can compete and win conference championships and be in the national spotlight consistently like the late 2000s and 2010s.
I could be wrong, but I again I believe that is what was trying to be conveyed about loyalty and the player not even knowing about the new program and he obviously did not, I suspect and hope the problem was more early program communication than intentional because if it was intentional, it was certainly a mistake, IMHO.
I do not think our players expect they can move around in the conference and get NIL money, but I suspect they would like to be appreciated and respected enough that they are told if there are options available (if they actually do exist) to them if they decide to stay here.
Many people who follow FCS football closely at a national level (me included) are seriously worried about FCS being an FBS minor league to draft players from as it is with NIL floating out there, and our football head coach has clearly stated he wants a traditional HS recruited football team, with a transfer mixed in once in a while to fill gaps. That makes Spider FB even more susceptible to the FBS draft when they find the undiscovered talent.
I give you Coby Turner and Savon Smith as examples of undiscovered talent, both walk-ons, one going to the NFL the other the Spider starting RB this coming year. Throw in Malik Mustapha mentioned above now at Wake Forest as another our coaches recognized when no one else did and likely going to the NFL. The no sit transfer rule was bad enough, now they can buy them, so yes loyalty matters.
I will return to the FB board and stay in my lane again.
Meant that sincerely, not snarkily.
Have another beer. Have another burger. Set off some fireworks.
Happy 4th!
I didn't read all of this, but want to say I follow our football program, love cheering for them, and want nothing but success for them. My post was mainly because I read what the post from a father of one of our player's had said about NIL and all that. My reply to him would be get over it. If you think your son ( who no doubt is a great player) can make a bunch of NIL money, go get it if you want. It just bothers me when parents get involved like this. And, I respect FCS football no different than I do D2 basketball, which is a heck of a lot. Both have a lot of talent, but I don't think D2 parents should while about NIL money either. I don't even think any basketball players or parents should whine about NIL here, so I definitely don't want to hear it from the football side. Just my opinion, and I love and respect greatly both our football and basketball programs.
When people find out I went to UR they sometimes mention the basketball team. Never had someone mention the football team, people are often surprised to find out we have one. The basketball team is more known nationally in my experience, playing FCS really reduces the exposure of the football team.
Especially in big cities, but are you often in Delaware, Montana, or North Dakota?
FCS is the only game in town in a broad swath of the country, admittedly most of it not heavily populated. If you are from a major metropolitan area, see why one would believe it is unimportant. In the hinterlands, this is certainly not the case.
Worn Spider gear many times in the upper Plains only to be greeted by effusive and knowledgeable FCS fans. Often felt as though they appreciated our teams more than we do.
Worn Spider gear many times in the upper Plains only to be greeted by effusive and knowledgeable FCS fans. Often felt as though they appreciated our teams more than we do.
This is a good point. Outside of my years at Richmond I have always lived in BCS territory or major metro areas.
8legs, I can only speak for myself, but I find your new profile photo as pretty
childless. You don’t like Mooney, okay, we all know that. But to put up a picture
of a billboard that got ridiculed by most, including the national press, demonstrating
your lack of regard for the school, or anyone that does support the program.
childless. You don’t like Mooney, okay, we all know that. But to put up a picture
of a billboard that got ridiculed by most, including the national press, demonstrating
your lack of regard for the school, or anyone that does support the program.
Just suggested Richmond Women's Golf to a friend and that his granddaughter might want to inquire, and his reply was "Yea right, Richmond", I had to explain to him the quality education available to her, and he actually seemed a bit shocked, so yeah, I get it, all that follow FB get it.
I do however believe FB is at the level it needs to be, and in the conference, it needs to be in. My remark about "flagship sports" was obviously not taken by some as the joke I intended to be.
Had you read it all you might have understood that my believe is not players were expecting NIL money, but it appears some might be available and they were not made aware of it. My point is FB is losing players moving up to FBS, not rivals like William and Mary, as BB has done to a cross-town rival. If we are indeed going to play FCS football and a group is trying to organize a little NIL fund (and bless them for doing so) why not at least try to keep them here if possible if the funds are going to be available to FB (and no amount of money may keep them here, they are competitors and want to compete at as high a level as possible in most case) and be as successful as possible at the level we have decided to play. I will say if they move on as graduates, I for one have no problem with it and appreciate the time any graduate has given their respective sport and hope their Richmond degree serves them well in life.
You might want to re-think that D2 things about Richmond FB, few D2 guys make the league, more than you think have gone there from here, you probably missed that fact not reading the whole post.
At any rate am done with the exchange. I usually stay off the BB board, but when I am here or on the FB board, I make a point not to go after players and family. Your business, but if doing so is getting you where you want to go in life go for it.
Our program is not D2, and it’s ignorant to compare it that way. That’s something our basketball rivals do, not something we do. Ridiculous.
Yes, we are losing players to FBS teams....just like a lot of teams are. I don't think a small amount of NIL money would change that, especially when it likely would not come close to matching what the 1-A team offers. As for BB losing Nelson, that was not NIL related.
I also have no issue at all with our grad transfers moving on. But, I will take it a step farther and say I also have no issue with our younger guys moving on. If guys want to leave and think they would be better off elsewhere, why stay?
As for the D2 comment, I said that because, like FCS in football, it is not at the highest level in hoops. Maybe I should have said lower 1-A basketball conferences instead of D2. My mistake. I do realize plenty of FCS players from here and overall have made the NFL, but my point was related to NIL, where I don't think there is a lot of NIL money at the next levels of football and basketball.
I also try not to go after players or families, but if a family member puts stuff out on a board, a tweet, or wherever, I feel perfectly comfortable responding to that and sharing my opinion. Parents should not be able to say what they want, and criticize who they want, without hearing some possible replies back.
I agree. I should have compared FCS with the lower conferences in 1-A hoops since we are D1 in football. My mistake.
8legs1dream
Team Manager
It's not new, been there for a few years now and if we had hired any one of hundreds other head coaches at the time that billboard was installed we would be in a better place today than we are now.
Time for change!
I agree, I don't see any children in your profile pic either.
We have been in the A10 now for about 20 years. I think we all can agree - one of the main reason, if not the main reason we moved from CAA to A10 was for the opportunity to get more at-large bids, especially after we got screwed out of one by the CAA and NCAA in our final year in the CAA.
But 20 years into the A10, we have the following results for NCAA.
2004 - NCAA - at-large
2010 - NCAA - at-large
2011 - NCAA - A10 Tourney Champion
2022 - NCAA - A10 Tourney Champion
I think the only year we would not have made the NCAA tourney is 2022 if we had not won the tourney. I think in 2011, by making the A10 finals - we earned our bid and would have made it anyways.
In terms of NIT - we did have the one year where we got a 1 seed and just missed the NCAA.
So really - in 3 at-large worth seasons, and 1 bubble season in 20 years. Now some might blame Mooney for that as he has been here for the most part of that. But as someone mentioned - is there any blame on the administration? Is this is a sign to change leagues? Maybe move to a league that aligns more with our "competitive" nature? I was thinking more Patriot league. Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, and Lafayette are more in line with UR.
Remember those days, many years ago when we thought UR had a real shot at the Big East????
But 20 years into the A10, we have the following results for NCAA.
2004 - NCAA - at-large
2010 - NCAA - at-large
2011 - NCAA - A10 Tourney Champion
2022 - NCAA - A10 Tourney Champion
I think the only year we would not have made the NCAA tourney is 2022 if we had not won the tourney. I think in 2011, by making the A10 finals - we earned our bid and would have made it anyways.
In terms of NIT - we did have the one year where we got a 1 seed and just missed the NCAA.
So really - in 3 at-large worth seasons, and 1 bubble season in 20 years. Now some might blame Mooney for that as he has been here for the most part of that. But as someone mentioned - is there any blame on the administration? Is this is a sign to change leagues? Maybe move to a league that aligns more with our "competitive" nature? I was thinking more Patriot league. Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, and Lafayette are more in line with UR.
Remember those days, many years ago when we thought UR had a real shot at the Big East????
8legs1dream
Team Manager
If we hadn't been a rudderless ship for 20 years we could very well be in the discussion for Big East expansion whenever it comes around. Instead we will watch big brother make the leap and further leave us in the dust.
I never thought the Big East would look to add a 3,000 undergrad school. and I don't see them adding VCU either despite their successes.
I definitely don't understand the longing for a Patriot league move, or SoCon/Big South. is that serious? yes, we'd have a better chance at a conference championship. is that all we want? play lesser teams all year and hope for a championship?
I don't get it. I like the A10.
I definitely don't understand the longing for a Patriot league move, or SoCon/Big South. is that serious? yes, we'd have a better chance at a conference championship. is that all we want? play lesser teams all year and hope for a championship?
I don't get it. I like the A10.
Realistically, it seems to be our best shot at getting the most frequent bids.
When your program's biggest financial supporter (by far) believes the A-10 will only be able to muster an at-large bid every other year and says our tough academics and spending level hamper our chances, then what other options are there? But yeah, he also says we'll never drop down from the A-10, so I guess it's full steam ahead with the status quo.
Sman, I think the point is that if we are unwilling to do what is necessary to win consistently in the A-10 and are instead going to lament the fact that VCU and whoever else can admit players we can't or won't, then what are we really doing here?
Either level the playing field and accept that same type of student athlete, or do better recruiting the ones who are great students AND great players, or drop down to a level at which we feel the playing field is more level.
Either level the playing field and accept that same type of student athlete, or do better recruiting the ones who are great students AND great players, or drop down to a level at which we feel the playing field is more level.
8legs1dream
Team Manager
If we had been winning at the clip that VCU has the past 20 years I bet we would be in the conversation instead of talk of dropping down to dominate the Patriot League 🤷♂️
Hi Coach Mooney! 🤣We are winning consistently.
Have we ever had an 0 for conference record?
I just think a new coach with a different approach would go a long way. The body of work is not forward thinking and set up for ongoing success. I honestly think we have the infrastructure and resources to be better. Setting aside perceived limitations and excuses that some want to make, our coaching is an anchor. We have plenty of potential, but not with the current coach. Who thinks we make the NCAA Tournament again during his tenure?
8legs1dream
Team Manager
I bet we can sneak back in there at least once in the next 30 years, sure!
So you're predicting two extra years of eligibility for all players after COVID-34?
I am not advocating the move to the Patriot League. I like the A10. But the I think we act more like a Patriot league team
But I think the administration is not concerned with NCAA appearances, but rather are we competitive (we are), are we winning (we are - Mooney is averaging 18 wins a season, even with the short COVID year), and get kids who don't get in trouble and who fit UR profile (coaches do that). NCAA tourney's to our administration are just a bonus I think. Great if we make it. But if we don't - no worries, we were not counting on the bonus anyways.
That is the issue. The definition of winning. Like I said before and many others on here have said as well. There is a difference in expectation. I think most on this board would like to see UR in the NCAA tourney every 3-4 years.We are winning consistently.
Have we ever had an 0 for conference record?
But I think the administration is not concerned with NCAA appearances, but rather are we competitive (we are), are we winning (we are - Mooney is averaging 18 wins a season, even with the short COVID year), and get kids who don't get in trouble and who fit UR profile (coaches do that). NCAA tourney's to our administration are just a bonus I think. Great if we make it. But if we don't - no worries, we were not counting on the bonus anyways.
Nailed it! I bet even Mooney could win 18 games a year in the Patriot league as well. He might even win more tournament titles as well therefore more NCAA’s. One and done most likely but hey
A once proud program, known throughout the Nation as the Giant Killers, has been reduced to discussing dropping down in conference to increase our outside chances of a NCAA bid.
So dismayed don't even know how to respond. That we are here is an indictment of leadership over multiple years.
So dismayed don't even know how to respond. That we are here is an indictment of leadership over multiple years.
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8legs1dream
Team Manager
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