True, football is revenue producing. However my guess is that revenue is minimal compared to bottom line expenses. Contributions probably make up a portion of covering costs, but I’d be curious of the bottom line losses.
Hardt on Bob’s show Wednesday
- Thread starter Eight Legger
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Yes, definitely hope there is a buyout in the contract. I have no intel on that. But obviously the resignation would be a forced resignation/firing, unless they actually mutually want to part ways. I’m saying it would play out in public as mutual
Agreed. He might. But let it be known there were plenty of people that warned him about Mooney for years now, voices he chose to ignore to double down on another couple years of the same crap. So, my confidence level is low that he will make the necessary course correction now and there still is that whole disregard he gave to so many, who have now been proven to be right.
Football is def not a revenue producing sport at UR or at many schools at the FCS level when you take all costs into account. Hell ole Mickey cited JMU losing money the year they won a natty. We dole out almost 5m a year in scholarships alone and that's before you get to travel/expenses/etc. No way we makeup for that in ticket sales/tv revenue. Maybe if you include donations.
I always wondered if an option would be to have Mooney "step-down" but he stays on as a special assistant to the AD? Unless he really wants to coach some more. Since he has been here so long, does he take an advisor role in the AD department. I say doubtful because you would have to create a position for him and guess what - you would have to pay him a salary - so that costs money, something UR doesn't like spending.
But I think what could happen and really cause Big Hat some Big problems is if we can finish the regular season 20-11, with one of these final 3 wins coming over VCU. Then get into A10 tourney and win 2 games (I am assuming we don't get a bye). That puts us at 22-12 territory. We are probably NIT bubble material at that point. But even if we don't make NIT, I think we all would agree on this board he needs to go - but I am not sure Hardt has the you know what in his Big Hat to fire the winningest coach of all time at UR after winning 22 games in a season and probably finishing top 5-6 in the league. AND - if by some chance we do make the NIT and win a game or two there, it make it even tougher.
I think at a school where winning is the expectation and making tourney's is the goal - it would be a no brainer. But I think at UR, where we just want to compete and be competitive, finishing with 21-22 wins this season would make Big Hat put on his Big Boots.
On the flip side - if your wanting a clear cut change. Finish the season 1-4, and lose first game in A10 tourney. That makes it pretty cut and dry - and even the record doesn't look good then at 18-14.
I just look at the history of UR sports and I can't remember UR ever firing a coach for not winning enough. Letting their contract run out doesn't count - as you didn't fire them, you just didn't renew them. I can't speak to the non-rev sports - but just in Basketball, Football, and Baseball - our coaches have either retired or moved somewhere else to coach.
And who is the ultimate decision maker in the process? I know for sure the Board at UR had to approve Mooney's contract because it was so big. SO I am guessing if he wants to terminate and pay the remainder or a buyout if one exists - he has to get Board approval as well. What if Hardt is on the fence about which way to go and the Board doesn't want to pay or they are happy with 21-22 wins.
And of course the next question would be - who do we think we can realistically GET to come to UR? We as fans I think are too biased and I wonder from the outside perspective what the experts and other coaches think of UR as a destination? We have good facilities. Good money. Good conference. But we have not made the tourney in 10 years. Now with Loyola joining - assume it will only get tougher. Recruiting could be difficult with admissions, and we don't have the greatest fan support in terms of students. So I just wonder if coaches looking to climb the ladder see UR as a good spot to do it anymore. I am sure someone will, but maybe not our top choices?
But I think what could happen and really cause Big Hat some Big problems is if we can finish the regular season 20-11, with one of these final 3 wins coming over VCU. Then get into A10 tourney and win 2 games (I am assuming we don't get a bye). That puts us at 22-12 territory. We are probably NIT bubble material at that point. But even if we don't make NIT, I think we all would agree on this board he needs to go - but I am not sure Hardt has the you know what in his Big Hat to fire the winningest coach of all time at UR after winning 22 games in a season and probably finishing top 5-6 in the league. AND - if by some chance we do make the NIT and win a game or two there, it make it even tougher.
I think at a school where winning is the expectation and making tourney's is the goal - it would be a no brainer. But I think at UR, where we just want to compete and be competitive, finishing with 21-22 wins this season would make Big Hat put on his Big Boots.
On the flip side - if your wanting a clear cut change. Finish the season 1-4, and lose first game in A10 tourney. That makes it pretty cut and dry - and even the record doesn't look good then at 18-14.
I just look at the history of UR sports and I can't remember UR ever firing a coach for not winning enough. Letting their contract run out doesn't count - as you didn't fire them, you just didn't renew them. I can't speak to the non-rev sports - but just in Basketball, Football, and Baseball - our coaches have either retired or moved somewhere else to coach.
And who is the ultimate decision maker in the process? I know for sure the Board at UR had to approve Mooney's contract because it was so big. SO I am guessing if he wants to terminate and pay the remainder or a buyout if one exists - he has to get Board approval as well. What if Hardt is on the fence about which way to go and the Board doesn't want to pay or they are happy with 21-22 wins.
And of course the next question would be - who do we think we can realistically GET to come to UR? We as fans I think are too biased and I wonder from the outside perspective what the experts and other coaches think of UR as a destination? We have good facilities. Good money. Good conference. But we have not made the tourney in 10 years. Now with Loyola joining - assume it will only get tougher. Recruiting could be difficult with admissions, and we don't have the greatest fan support in terms of students. So I just wonder if coaches looking to climb the ladder see UR as a good spot to do it anymore. I am sure someone will, but maybe not our top choices?
If there is an off ramp for Mooney, it will not be because he is fired. This will be some mutual decision type of arrangement. There is way too much face to be saving over there on everyone. Firing him will admit that they all were wrong a few years ago and lord knows they can't and won't even admit to that.
Call me crazy, but I prefer having an upgraded Robins Center and a wonderful training facility for both programs (and for other sports) than a few more plane flights.
Loyola joined the A-10 because it's a steppingstone to an eventual spot in the Big East.
Speaking of money, here's an article from JOC that provides a new and creative excuse for why we aren't good: we don't spend quite enough money on basketball.
richmond.com
VCU already has UR beat, in terms of men's hoops budgets on this A-10 financial scoreboard
VCU hosts the University of Richmond Friday night in men’s basketball and the Rams already have the advantage when budgets are compared.
Actually, it appears we spend .76% more than Fordham and I would say we are more than .76% better than Fordham, so it is succeeding?Speaking of money, here's an article from JOC that provides a new and creative excuse for why we aren't good: we don't spend quite enough money on basketball.
VCU already has UR beat, in terms of men's hoops budgets on this A-10 financial scoreboard
VCU hosts the University of Richmond Friday night in men’s basketball and the Rams already have the advantage when budgets are compared.
Good post. I’ll just add that the very least of our concerns should be “who could we get?” We could get plenty of highly qualified coaches, as long as we actually demonstrate that we care about winning. Making a change would be a big step toward demonstrating that.
Agree with the above. That said, I don't think 8L was using those capital improvements in his numbers.
If you include those, it's north of $100MM.
My concern with worrying about the next coach is how do coaches view us as a program? We want an up and coming coach who can win and get us back to the NCAA and I honestly would not worry if they come here for 5 years - take us to 2 NCAA Tourney's and leave. We just repeat the process.
BUT - what we don't want to happen is have a list of coaches we want, and we end up going further and further down the list because 1st choice goes somewhere else, 2nd choice stays put, 3rd choice goes somewhere else, etc. And my concern is two fold - how do coaches view us today - a program that made back to back appearances, but has never been back in 10+ years. Not to mention, we have admissions and recruiting struggles. And we have a rival school in the same city who has had much more success than UR in the same time frame.
If we are looking for a coach to turn us around, do they see us as a more difficult place to do so because of these issues? And therefore coaches will pass us by or decide to stay in their current situation.
Of course we will get someone, but it also doesn't look good if we get our 7th choice as opposed to our 1st, 2nd or even 3rd choice.
Cause honestly - this next hire HAS to get us back to the NCAA tourney or else we risk falling into a hole we might not be able to get back out of - a hole like LaSalle, Fordham, Mason, etc. Cause then I think good coaches will have pause as they will see a program that has not been to a tourney in 15+ years at that point. So this next hire, assuming Mooney is gone - is probably the biggest hire in our program's history.
Easy answers to every question, assuming Hardt wants to go for it:
• Why haven't you made the tourney for a decade? "Well, we had a long-term deal with a coach that in retrospect was a bad one we couldn't get out of, and then we thought we had a great chance to make the tournament with a veteran team the last two years and wanted to see that process through. We are making a change now because we care about winning and believe we have all the pieces needed to be regular NCAA tournament qualifiers."
• What admissions limitations are in place? "We make no apologies for the fact that UR is a top-level university, but we believe that is an attractant, not a hindrance. And we've loosened our admissions standards within reason. Davidson is another team in our league with high-level academics and tremendous basketball success – evidence that the two can work in tandem."
• Why haven't you recruited as well as necessary in the recent past? "We have had some of the best players in the A-10 during the past decade and a number of all-time great UR players, but the sum of the parts hasn't been what we expected, which is why we are making this change."
• Will you always be second-fiddle to VCU in your own city? "Absolutely not. We are committed to being a top-4 team in the A-10, winning regular season and conference championships and reclaiming our place in the city and region. VCU is a great program, but we have every resource necessary to be a great program, too, and to turn around our recent performance in the rivalry."
This is exactly what happened with tech football. They’re top like 10 choices went elsewhere or weren’t interested so they had to settle for a very uninspiring hire in Brent pry. Don’t want to see that happen here too. Also does anyone really trust Hardt to make the right hire? I don’t. I’m sure we’ll just end up with the low hanging fruit in Nathan davis.
no coach would look at UR as a no-win situation. we're a desireable program with top notch facilities. the only hesitation someone might have is that we only have 3,000 undergrads. but if a coach wants to lead a national power, he can win here and then move up like Beilein did.
but it's not like we don't regularly have winning seasons. we have fallen short of dancing but that's not an indictment of the opportunities here.
but it's not like we don't regularly have winning seasons. we have fallen short of dancing but that's not an indictment of the opportunities here.
No, the hesitation would be not having the leadership in place to fully support the program. To win big, you have to have everyone committed including faculty, president, and athletic department. That's what UR lacks.
I just don't see an up and coming coach having that concern. what would he base that on? the fact that we haven't fired the current coach more quickly? I doubt a prospective coach sees that as a negative.
And this is the devil advocate's response.
You have one of the nicest arenas in the league, new practice facility, fly charters, the school is by all means a "wealthy" school in terms of money and resources - yet, you have not been able to make the tourney in 10 years since back to back appearances and sending a guy to the NBA - something seems off here.......Sure - it seems like expectations are low, but I am looking to move up the ladder - not down after this job.
Admissions limitations - Can I be assured if I bring a recruit, he will get admitted? How do you feel about transfers as well since this is the new recruiting way of college athletics and especially basketball? I don't see a lot of transfers the last few years - is that an admissions issue? I would rather let a kid in below normal admissions level you are used to for student-athletes, and then give him all the resources he needs to succeed - tutors, summer school, aides, etc - is that possible at UR?
Second fiddle to VCU - they are a larger school, have been much better than you in the last 10 years, and they have little to no restrictions in recruiting - seems odd we are not more competitive with them on a yearly basis. If I am going to compete with them - I need as close to the same resources to them as possible. We need to be #1 in our own city before we can be #1 in the league. Can the administration commit to that?
I think after JB and even after JW since we had just made the tourney and both coaches moved up to bigger jobs - UR was looked at as a good spot to move up the coaching ladder. Even if Mooney would have left after the back to back appearances, we would have really looked good and been a good spot. But when you go 10 years without an appearance, and your rival just down the road has excelled at the same time - I think you become very "stale" in a sense. And I wonder if some coaches will not look at us or explore other options before us because of this - and therefore we end up with 5th, 6th choice - who may be good, but again - we need someone to get us back to the tourney or else we dig a major hole.
Trap aren't u the money talks guy, that nobody is turning down a big raise? Well there's an answer. Yes the next coach is a huge hire but I'm not sure why you're so worried about interest level. I got 20 names myself, give me the 5th or 6th I don't care.
I am a money guy - but what do you think the University will want to pay the next coach.
I am thinking if we can get a top name on our list and want to show we are committed - throw them 1-1.2 million a year.
If it is someone like Chris Mack - maybe 1.5 million a year.
But I got a feeling UR will be looking to downgrade the salary, save some money and look to pay 500K-700K.
So yes - I am a money guy and money does talk in these situations, but I don't see UR paying up for a new coach.
I am thinking if we can get a top name on our list and want to show we are committed - throw them 1-1.2 million a year.
If it is someone like Chris Mack - maybe 1.5 million a year.
But I got a feeling UR will be looking to downgrade the salary, save some money and look to pay 500K-700K.
So yes - I am a money guy and money does talk in these situations, but I don't see UR paying up for a new coach.
500-700K would probably put us at or very close to the bottom of the A-10...don't see any way they do that.
We aren't hiring a new coach and paying them 500K. Come on now. I would bet every A-10 school pays more than that. Our problem has not and never has been money. UR is a lot of things, cheap is not one of them. Next coach is going to be at least a million annually. That is the going rate these days.
Keeping Mooney has never been about money. Ever. Mooney is supported by Queally (so maybe inadvertently about money then) and I think Hardt and company really believed in the guy.
If we really wanted to fire Mooney, the contract is not an issue. You don't issue that contract if you can't pay it out if something goes wrong. We kept Mooney because our athletic leaders believed in him.
He will get terminated when they cease believing in him.
If we really wanted to fire Mooney, the contract is not an issue. You don't issue that contract if you can't pay it out if something goes wrong. We kept Mooney because our athletic leaders believed in him.
He will get terminated when they cease believing in him.
I disagree - I think money was a major factor. I think the school has the money, but I don't think they wanted to pay Mooney his buyout or rest of his contract AND pay a new coach as well. I think they have kept him on board to minimize that payment as much as possible AND to hope he turns it around so they would not have to make this decision. To my memory - UR has never fired a coach with time remaining on their contract in basketball, football, or baseball. Now they have to do it to the tune of $1 million plus. Do they have the money - YES. But the question is do they want to spend it - I think that answer is NO.
Extending an underperforming employee because you don't want to pay out his contract seems kind of ludicrous. But then again, it is our athletic department, so who knows.
If it is an up & coming coach, he'd probably see 1) a reasonable pay increase over his current employer, 2) possibilities for long term employment here and increased wages if he produces, and 3) possibility of long term employment if mediocrity (our current norm) is all that is expected.
On the other hand he could easily see UR as a stepping stone to bigger things if he produces.
Looks like an ideal position however you analyze it regardless of of all of the downside in place known due to Queally, Hardt, etc.
Maybe the hold Mooney has over them is that the admin has asked him to lose games on purpose to get higher draft picks? Nah, that could never happen.
I have so little confidence in them that I'm not sure this is a road they are capable of traveling.
Oh, I have zero confidence in our athletic leadership. Zero. They have shown repeatedly that winning is way down their priority list. I don't know why you get into athletic leadership if you don't care about winning as one of our pinnacle priorities.
I am very weary that even if Mooney resigns, forced out, whatever, that Hardt has the ability to really identify the best coach and hire him or her. And these hired search firms are just freaking terrible, I mean you pay a quarter of a million, half a million to get some recycled name, or the coach that was under you at the last school. How long do we think Hardt sticks around? He is only ~ 60, and this is a very low stress job for him, just like Mooney. I think it could really boil down to PQ stepping back and someone that cares about sports other than LAX stepping in to fill that void.
Ya we all know we’d either go search firm route because Hardt just likes to sleep at the wheel or he’s gonna hire Nathan Davis from Bucknell.
New Pres Kev was very visible in the crowd in DC … glad that he appreciates collegiate sports
Not sure if I saw the tweet on here or somewhere else, but this summer he visited two baseball players competing against each other in the cape cod league. Can’t think of any president reaching out in a manner like that. Cautiously optimistic about this guy.
Some of you think we should be Michigan or Ohio State. Not a small private university in
Virginia. We have a very strong athletic program based on our size, and the pathetic fan support.
I love my Spiders and am proud of our teams. But so many on this board live in La La Land.
Virginia. We have a very strong athletic program based on our size, and the pathetic fan support.
I love my Spiders and am proud of our teams. But so many on this board live in La La Land.
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Good thing #TheGipeUR doesn't think small!!
I get it - we don't have budget of athletics that tOSU has - actually no one does.
But, let's not think small. I think we can realistically target to be a more consistent dancer and mid major power like St. Mary's, VCU, SDSU, Dayton, and a few others.
I do agree with folks on here regarding uptick in recruiting. I think Mooney has improved and really doing a great job landing his top targets, including in the portal this year. Scheduling is next. We have had a lot of staff turnover, would love to get a top assistant that can really rev this part of the equation up. Maybe Gipe can do this in his free 5 hours a day
?
I get it - we don't have budget of athletics that tOSU has - actually no one does.
But, let's not think small. I think we can realistically target to be a more consistent dancer and mid major power like St. Mary's, VCU, SDSU, Dayton, and a few others.
I do agree with folks on here regarding uptick in recruiting. I think Mooney has improved and really doing a great job landing his top targets, including in the portal this year. Scheduling is next. We have had a lot of staff turnover, would love to get a top assistant that can really rev this part of the equation up. Maybe Gipe can do this in his free 5 hours a day
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