GDT: Mississippi State vs. The Spiders

[spider fan]

When the review discloses, by indisputable evidence, that there was no foul, the foul call shall be reversed with no foul charged.


Thanks for the information. Question: common foul called, can team on which it was called ask for review to determine if it was flagrant? Did Mooney ask for the review? Probably refs reviewed it on their own initiative. Otherwise would give a team the opportunity to ask for a review on every foul.

 

[urfan1]

you miss my point, my understanding was that the initial call was a common foul not a flagrant foul -- I didn't think you could change a common foul to a flagrant foul, but with an initial call of a flagrant foul you can elevate, or decrease from one or two, or to a common foul, or a no foul. I'm not sure I'm right but I understand it all starts with was it an initial call of common or flagrant foul

 

[spider fan]

That makes a lot more sense. Thought that foul was a common foul, but with the announcers lost in the world of their own opinions, don't think they specifically stated what kind of foul was called.

 

[urmite]

That makes a lot more sense. Thought that foul was a common foul, but with the announcers lost in the world of their own opinions, don't think they specifically stated what kind of foul was called.

I suspect since Goose stayed down initially, they checked if the elbows were too high, to see if it needed to be a flagrant.

But as Fan1 states do the rules allow a common foul to be reviewed to determine if it should have been called a flagrant?

 

[nathanw19]

you miss my point, my understanding was that the initial call was a common foul not a flagrant foul -- I didn't think you could change a common foul to a flagrant foul, but with an initial call of a flagrant foul you can elevate, or decrease from one or two, or to a common foul, or a no foul. I'm not sure I'm right but I understand it all starts with was it an initial call of common or flagrant foul

Sorry, I did misunderstand.

But the rule book there says nothing about having to start with a flagrant, it just says when reviewing for a flagrant.

I would point to a number of reviews nowadays, both when a foul is called and when is no foul is called, where the refs are looking to see if the play was a flagrant foul. You don’t need to start with a flagrant foul call to review if there is a flagrant foul.

I read the quoted rule to say during any of these reviews to determine if a flagrant foul has occurred (not only when reviewing a flagrant foul call), they can downgrade a common foul to a no call with indisputable evidence.

And clearly that is the way the ref interpreted it last night and Mooney accepted by hat explanation.

 

[ur2K]

Feel like it happens all the time for a regular/common foul to be reviewed to see if it should be elevated to a flagrant.

 

[Gallipoli]

What bothers me is that Ado committed at least 3 more fouls in the last 3 minutes of the game. One was against Grace. It was a terrible no call.

 

[SFspidur]

So yes, officials can call a common foul and then go to the monitors to review for a flagrant on their own. And as in this case, they can completely overturn the common foul based on what they see.

It does seem a bit odd, as normally a common foul can't be overturned, but "checking for a flagrant" is apparently a loophole they can use to do it.

As for whether a coach can request a flagrant review, the answer is yes, but the rules only address it from the point of view of a coach who WANTS a flagrant. If they request and one isn't found, they are charged a timeout. So if the refs hadn't gone to check themselves, I guess Howland could have requested a review, "lost" the challenge, had the foul overturned, and been charged a timeout? Weird situation.

 

[spiderman]

What bothers me is that Ado committed at least 3 more fouls in the last 3 minutes of the game. One was against Grace. It was a terrible no call.

yeah, Ado's hip bump on Grace's drive was clear and obvious. yet they called some little hand check crap on I think Dji to put them on the line and tie the game.

2 things about the Ado call.
in the replays from in front and behind, it looks good. Ado doesn't move laterally. his elbows are down. looks like he's standing their like the announcers say.
if you have ESPN+ go to 1:28:00 now. in live time from the side, he absolutely leans into the screen. that's why he falls forward after the hit. I'd probably let it go but that's a foul. all bias aside, it's a foul.

the 2nd thing is the review. I understand the rule that you can take away the foul if you see it wasn't a foul while reviewing to see if the foul was flagrant. but there was absolutely no reason to review if the foul was flagrant. if the ref claims he was reviewing to see if it was flagrant, I think he's lying. he reviewed because he didn't agree with the call and he knew if he did he could take the call away, saying he was reviewing for a flagrant call. so I guess they can always review a common foul now with this claim.

 

[SFspidur]

Really good view of it here. He was definitely leaning into it.

 

[Eight Legger]

How can the refs be so inept that they first believed it was not only a foul but possibly a flagrant foul, then concluded that it wasn’t even a foul at all? Seriously? I guess they were worried about that the money they were promised by a Nigerian prince would disappear if they let the call stand.

 

[spider fan]

Yes Ado was untouchable as far as foul calls after the call was overturned. Definitely leaned in to make sure there was contact. It was a foul by the normal definition.

 

[Spider Bob79]

One call that bothered me was the foul call at the end. Goose is dribbling down the floor-this is probably the game. Then the reach out touch by Ado-foul call- clock stopped. Oh well.
I've seen many games where that reach touch isn't called, but usually happens in games where the outcome is inevitable, where the team with the ball has a big lead with a few seconds left. From the calling of that foul to the missed front end of the one and one to .... everything went right for the final three. I give credit to M. State for having poise at the end with no timeouts left. On the positive side, in the NIT, players who hadn't played much, got their chance, and did great! Matt Grace was terrific! And Gilly brought his A game. The freshmen were also great. If we have Grace and Gilyard next year, things will be looking up.

 

[Wood Hall]

I was yelling "Just roll the ball down the floor!" when the guy came at him. Clock won't stop and he could have just blown right through the guy to pick it back up. Plus we had someone open on the other side of the court who could have chased it down, MSU had no one near the play except the guy who fouled.

The biggest mistake players make in end-game situations is holding on to the ball. Pass it as quickly as you can to an open guy, keep it moving, don't let them foul you.

Magic did the roll-the-ball thing one time at the end of a playoff game against the Blazers. The ball took about five seconds to reach the other end of the court and time ran out.

 

[spiderman]

I was yelling "Just roll the ball down the floor!" when the guy came at him. Clock won't stop and he could have just blown right through the guy to pick it back up. Plus we had someone open on the other side of the court who could have chased it down, MSU had no one near the play except the guy who fouled.

The biggest mistake players make in end-game situations is holding on to the ball. Pass it as quickly as you can to an open guy, keep it moving, don't let them foul you.

Magic did the roll-the-ball thing one time at the end of a playoff game against the Blazers. The ball took about five seconds to reach the other end of the court and time ran out.

yeah, I was yelling to lob it ahead to whoever was on the left up there. I didn't even see the grab that earned the call. but I immediately had a bad feeling when they called it.

 

[Eight Legger]

Wouldn’t really have mattered. They still would have fouled Goose either way and likely not drawn an intentional foul.

 

[nathanw19]

Really good view of it here. He was definitely leaning into it.

View embedded media

I see the lean, but still don’t think it’s a foul. I see that as bracing for impact, which is natural and allowed. I would’ve gone full Plydogg if they called that a foul on us.

That being said, our disagreement on the call probably means that there wasn't indisputable evidence to overturn the call.

 

[urmite]

I see the lean, but still don’t think it’s a foul. I see that as bracing for impact, which is natural and allowed. I would’ve gone full Plydogg if they called that a foul on us.

That being said, our disagreement on the call probably means that there wasn't indisputable evidence to overturn the call.

So disputing it prevents it from being indisputable?

 

[spiderman]

I see the lean, but still don’t think it’s a foul. I see that as bracing for impact, which is natural and allowed.

• Moving Screen – When an offensive player is screening a defender, they must establish position and be set by the time the defender collides with them. If their feet are moving at impact, or they lean into contact at the last moment, it’s a moving screen, which is a foul and results in a turnover.

it's really not disputable.

 

[nathanw19]

• Moving Screen – When an offensive player is screening a defender, they must establish position and be set by the time the defender collides with them. If their feet are moving at impact, or they lean into contact at the last moment, it’s a moving screen, which is a foul and results in a turnover.

it's really not disputable.

The video shows him in a leaning position, but not leaning at the last moment. That’s why it’s disputable.

 

[97spiderfan]

Goose got laid out on that call. I think anytime a player in down on the court like that after a play like that refs are gonna go look at the monitor to see if their was any blow to the head or neck area.

Now, how they went from that type of review to reviewing whether a foul was actually the right call or not is a different story.

 

[fan2011]

Does it matter if a player is leaning forward or to the side? I feel like leaning to the side to screen a player that has avoided you would be a foul, but leaning forward into a player running directly at you might not be.

The “last moment” qualifier definitely comes into play here, leaning forward at the last moment to make the screen more damaging should probably be a foul.

 

[Gallipoli]

Last moment in real time is different than in slow motion. This was a terrible call.

 

[SFspidur]

Yeah, I really don't think it's a foul...agree that leaning into it to brace for impact is different than leaning to create the contact. Goose needs to be aware of picks, and his teammates need to be calling them out to him.

 

[nathanw19]

Yeah, I really don't think it's a foul...agree that leaning into it to brace for impact is different than leaning to create the contact. Goose needs to be aware of picks, and his teammates need to be calling them out to him.

Agreed. Whole heartedly put this on teammates not calling out the screen. Lucky and happy that Goose wasn’t injured on the play.

 

[32counter]

Howland postgame:

WATCH: Ben Howland on Mississippi State's dramatic win over Richmond

Bulldogs advance to NIT semifinals

www.si.com

 

[GKiller]

Not a foul

 

[Eight Legger]

Howland is older than death, and somehow we lost the game to the slop he trotted out there. Unreal. Hopefully they get killed tomorrow.

Also, I guess we are just going to ignore that Howland admitted their player who was out last night was out because of contact tracing. Pretty much the same reason SLU refused to play us earlier this year. But I guess when you are an SEC team, the rules don't really apply.

 

[SpiderGuy]

Foul or no foul. One play or another. Unfortunately these things happen.

However we CAN control our destiny in the game if we make a couple more free throws here or there. 60 or so pct foul shooting isn't controlling destiny in a close game. Sad that it came down to this. Better (even slightly better) makes the final 3 pointer end of game a non issue.

 

[spiderman]

you're seeing the lean in slow motion above. watch the ESPN+ replay at full speed in real time. he clearly leans in.

and no, you don't get to lean in to "brace yourself".

but I agree this blown call is not why we lost. we missed a lot of foul shots. we missed bunnies at the rim. a 65% foul shooting team hit 16 in a row. and a kid made a winning play with 2 seconds left.

 

[plydogg]

I didn’t think it was a foul in real time, and I didn’t think it was a foul in replay. At the end of the day the refs need “clear and indisputable evidence” to overturn a call. I’m trusting the people who do this professionally over fans of the teams the call went against.

Refs make a hell of a lot of bad calls, but when they have video they get the call right at an exponentially higher rate than just on the floor.

 

[urfan1]

See post 113 from SouthJerseySpiderFan.

He quotes the rule book. Seems pretty clear that during a flagrant review, if there is indisputable evidence there was no foul, it can be reversed.

That fits what happened last night: flagrant review and then indisputable evidence there actually was no foul.

The bummer for us, as SouthJersey points out, is that if there was no flagrant review, they couldn’t have overturned the call...

OK reading it quickly this morning I didn't pick up on the "when a foul is called"

 

[SpiderAlways]

Not a foul at all. He was there. He only moved after contact

 

[MolivaManiac]

Guys, big picture. This is what our program has become. We are two days later, griping about a foul call in a NIT Quarterfinal game. Any self-respecting program would be laughing at itself over a sting of conversation like this over an NIT game.

Mooney's Legacy.

 

[SpiderRick]

Y'all are debating this like it cost us A trip to the REAL Final Four. It's the NIT for crying out loud, move on to football ....

 

[I-M-UR]

What’s everyone complaining about we hit the UR apex of success this season by getting an NIT bid ( that others turned down). Isn’t that pathetic.

 

[nathanw19]

Guys, big picture. This is what our program has become. We are two days later, griping about a foul call in a NIT Quarterfinal game. Any self-respecting program would be laughing at itself over a sting of conversation like this over an NIT game.

Mooney's Legacy.

Agreed.

Though I must admit I found it refreshing to debate a basketball game again on this board for a second instead of just being depressed about the season/state of the program.