FAIRNESS IN TAXES

[WebSpinner]

the CBO just published stats, i know, am not a stats guy, that reflect the following: the lower 20% of our population paid 1/3 of 1% of taxes captured in the years 2006-2009, while the top 20% paid 70% of all taxes. is this fair, not fair, just right? that is for those who feel in their heart that there should be "fairness" in our tax system.

 

[GKiller]

fair. you're not a stats guy or a heart guy. one, are you talking about income tax? That is not the only tax. they pay their share in social security, medicare, sales taxes. if not talking about income taxes, property taxes makes up big number and bottom 20 dont own anything. we have a progressive federal income tax structure and if that structure shields the poorest 20 fine. other taxes undo that. & what % of national income do the lower 20% make. that has to be considered. while Its not 1/3 of 1% its a very very low number. on average the poorest 5th of households do pay a percentage of their income in federal taxes. I do not know that average but I do know its far from an insignicant amount given their average income is around 20k. there seems to be this thought that the bottom 20% have it easy re: taxes. if u have that thought your next one should be they are the BOTTOM 20 and then the first thought disappears. but perhaps you are advocating taxing these people deeper into poverty.

 

[BillyWayne]

"& what % of national income do the lower 20% make."


Maybe a better question is what % of the national income do the lower 20% take? I have absolutely no problem with the government assisting those who truly need it, but I do have a problem supporting those who are able to earn for themselves but do not. As I see it, our system in many ways encourages this. For example, the constant extending of unemployment. Many would rather remain on unemployment than find a job. I understand that studies show that most find jobs after unemployment runs out, but not before.

 

[WebSpinner]

don't have a dog in this fight, but others think that the "so called rich" should shoulder more or all of this mess, they think that is fair. close to 50% of americans pay no income tax so the figure (1/3 of 1%) for the bottom 20% must be social security and medicare taxes. i do feel we have too many folks in the wagon and too few pulling the wagon and that is not a good trend.

 

[MolivaManiac]

GK, you make valid points, but which of the taxes that the 'lower 47%' pay or not pay go to the Federal Government's P&L?

I don't think Spinner's point was to discuss state or local taxes, but we can probably drill down that far if we need to.

 

[tarrantula]

SOME STATS;


I am not an accountant and although I made a decent grade in Carl Davis's tax classes, I am anything but an expert on taxes. I get a CPA to do mine each year. I don't know enough to feel comfortable jumping into this discussion. I have always felt that an individual making 7 figures plus and paying federal income taxes at a 35% rate would feel the pinch less than a guy and his wife making $8.00/hour, paying 15% each and trying to raise two kids.That's strictly a philosophical opinion. My wife and I kept exchange students from 6 different countries for a year each and we visited the families of three kids living in Finland, Sweden and Denmark(all of which have income tax rates well above 50% for wealthy tax payers and I talked to each family about their system. These countries have some of the highest standards of living in the world, have government paid benefits that would drive Spinner over the edge(our Danish son went to golf school in spain paid for by the govt) all of these families were well to do, paid high taxes, complained a bit, but acknowledged that they were basically satisfied with the status quo. Below are some stats I found on the internet, Ihope you folks talk about these figures as you aqre more able to anyalize this stuff than I am.


According to the CBO, the top 1% of income earners pay 38% of income taxes paid in the country. Their share of total income taxed is 20%.


The share of total income in the US going to the lower 80% of income earners after taxes was less than 50% in 2007.


The highest tax rates in the world belong to some of the most prosperous countries: 1) Belgium 2) Finland 3)Germany 4)Denmark 5)Italy.


The lowest tax rates belong to 1) Switzerland 2) U.S. this is based on average rates per tax payer, not top and bottom figures. In U.S. the top rates on corporations are 38%; for individuals ..35% Scandanavian countries have top rates that are higher than ours.


The U.S.has the highest rate of inequality of earnings in the world. A 2011 study by CBO found that the top 1% of households gained 275% after Federal taxses and income transfers betwen 1979 and 2007. In other words, the rich are getting richer. The increase is not due to a widening gap between the poor and the middle class, but between the middle class and the top income earners. From 1992 to 2007 the Top 400 earners in the US saw their income increase 392% and their average tax rate reduce by 37%. (The article did not give details, I can only presume that these tax payers were able to shelter more of their income.)

 

[WebSpinner]

sorry T, but italy has a run on its banks and is just about to throw in the towel financially, translated, they are broke. what is the population of those other countries, do they send money to foreign countries, do they police the world? have they created an underclass of individuals who completely rely on the govt for their existence or do they make them work? sounds like the ultimate but bet it is not and europe and their fairy tale socialist culture is just about to go BOOM! why do we want, or why do you want to emulate that? that is not how we were founded, not what made us great.

 

[GKiller]

you guys are trying to take this in other directions & thats fine I have a few comments on those. but remember my response was in regards to what the bottom 20 pay in taxes. you cant squeeze blood out of that turnip. those that do I question their math and heart.


no dog in fight spinner? odd since you comment on every thread re: govt, obama, bush or taxes. although I like your idea of across the board cut in govt (defense is still biggest US expense), military & govt pensions cut them, govt employees have as much tenure as professors it seems. need to cut people & pensions as much as programs. I dont know what of the lower 47 goes to P&L do you know moliva? That 47 figure is bit high due to US recession it should be lower. I sure want it to be lower. btw decent amount on that lower 47 are elderly especially poor elderly, disabled, or students (the latter presumably eventually added to taxroll), unemployed or choose not to work but do not receive unemployment benefits. none of those groups would u expect to have income tax. BW, I dont have an answer to fixing unemployment. someone - not me but Ive heard it - could argue most benefits paid from UI go right back into GDP. I believe that study u reference to be accurate. All I say there is unemployment affects the low income hell of a lot worse than high income levels. Many low income are in service sector & when consumer spending is down they're screwed. higher income are more insulated from it. not sure any of us can really relate to unemployment at those levels.


I looked up my own question and read on AVERAGE the bottom 20 pay 4% rate in income taxes. that was from CBO too. that may not sound like much but it is. u factor in other taxes and its heavy burden. if we're drilling into state & local taxes ok. not sure if that was an insuation they dont bear much. they do. just b/c we may have a high property tax and I hate mine doesnt mean we have all the burden. there are lot of taxes out there besides income...sales, federal excise, biggest is payroll. income tax is 1/5 of all taxes.


look at the payroll tax, fed govt almost gets as much from that as income tax. payroll tax is regressive. anyone on a payroll in bottom 20 pays higher % of earnings. payroll tax is capped. its a higher burden on 90% of wage earners.


of course the rich pay most $$ in taxes that is simple math but corporate and wealthy taxes have shifted disproportionately to their benefit over the years due to loopholes, decuctions etc. I don't think that is in dispute.


anyway this wasn't my intent, I want to keep my money as much as the next guy but the last place I'll look for it is from the bottom 20.

 

[MolivaManiac]

T, it appears that the 5 nations you mention average about $10-15k less GDP per capita than the Swiss and USA. If we keep going the way we're going, we'll get there sooner of later. And yes, Italy doesn't seem like a nation worth emulating.

GK, I understand your points and am not necessarily arguing but the income taxes you reference that lower income taxes are paying are state and local taxes. Yes, they are still taxes and they are painful, but the thought that nearly 50% of American pay no federal income tax is mortifying to this voter in federal elections who pays income taxes.

Last thing. Payroll taxes. We have Medicare and social security. Medicare is underfunded and being pushed aside for Obamacare. Social security taxes are supposedly our retirement trust funds, right? Why would the rich, the middle class or the poor have any objection paying taxes that supposedly fund our retirement? Heck, our respective employers are paying more than half of it for us!

I would have loved privatized social security, but we were told that we 'couldn't trust Wall street', so nothing happened. Then, after reinforcing how sacred the social security system is, social security savings errr tax was cut from 6.2% to 4.2%.

Why didn't the government just force me to save less in my 401k as 'stimulus'? My Social security is sacred!


This post was edited on 7/11 10:14 PM by MolivaManiac

 

[WebSpinner]

have no dog in the so called "fairness" fight Killer. i do not go around moaning that some rich guy pays no taxes, none of my business, i don't really care but certain politicians have to have victims and bogey men to go after and create class envy and hatred, i do not. i don't get any joy if someone has to pay more taxes. to me the bottom line is, we could tax the rich at 100% and it would not put a dent in our overspending and that is my fight, we need to get that under control. payroll tax, as i understand it, is what is withheld in advance, per paycheck, to cover an individual's income tax, thus is income tax, plus the social security and medicare taxes, not really a separate tax.

This post was edited on 7/11 10:22 PM by WebSpinner

 

[KESpider]

Some comments reference Europe as a possible model for the U.S., not directly, but the inference is there. Say again? That model is unsustainable as recent and current events make evident. I'm not suggesting what would work, but the European model is clearly badly broken.

 

[WebSpinner]

we have slowly evolved into following the european model but hope we can fix that but we may be too far gone at this point. the govt is now touting that social security is a govt benefit, so laughable. it is the individual's money and the money of the company you work for over the years, except that our legislators have spent all of the money supposedly set aside for the demographics we are now seeing. why can't some see, realize that the govt could screw up a one car funeral?

 

[MolivaManiac]

Just an update, Moody's downgraded Italy bond grade to Baa2 today.

 

[WebSpinner]

the rating services are so far behind the curve and guess are trying to keep from causing runs on these entities. knock all of their ratings down by several notches and you might get closer to the real deal.

 

[tarrantula]

Spinner, on a daily basis, I see members of that bottom group that you constantly talk about. I doubt that you have much first hand dealings with these folks. A few are habitual criminals, but the much larger portion are folks who can't find a job or who are trying to raise a family working very hard for $8.00 an hour. Our area once prided itself on the quality of its workforce, but the jobs are gone now. You have no idea how many good people are being crushed by economic conditions in this country. I don't know how we fix things, but characterizing out of work folks as deadbeats...denying folks who are working, but make such meager incomes that they can't afford health care for their kids while the wealthy see their incomes go up and up and up with no additional tax burden seems unfair. What really seems to me to be the most bleak circumstance is that politicians from both sides seem more interested in blasting the other side than in acknowledging the situation and trying to find practical ways to make things better. Is government spending leading us down a road to disaster? Yes! I agree with you absolutely on that issue, that's why I admire Ron Paul. But, I don't put the blame or the solution for that on the backs of our own population. The military is where we spend the most. Foreign aid. Unneeded domestic programs. But, trying to enable American families to have affordable health care is in my mind a worthy project. Obamacare, as it is called, may be badly flawed, but we should be trying to fix it, not can the whole project. Yes, let's cut spending, but let's cut what we don't need and keep what enables our decent citizens to provide for their families. And, yes, our tax system needs to be reexamined. By fair minded men who look at what works for other countries and whose goal is to protect the financial health of our country for the benefit of all our people. We need to ensure that the folks making our laws are working for the public good and not the good of some private interest that puts money in their pockets. The dispair in this for me is that the public is buying into a cadence that goes Right! Left! Right! Left! The choice should not be right- left, it should be necessary-unnecessary, fair-unfair.

 

[WebSpinner]

T, i grew up as one of those people you describe, so think i have a pretty good handle on it. healthcare is where it is because of guaranteed payments to docs, hospitals, all providers by ins cos, govt programs, maybe others. take that away and we probably get much more affordable health care and maybe even house calls again. just don't think the answer is creating more folks dependent on the govt for anything, that is a recipe for complete disaster, know our family did not depend on anything or anyone, did it ourselves. poor folks have access to healthcare without a govt program or insurance, they will get and deserve treatment. have stated and will do so again, not against social programs, though do believe they have created dependent people not independent people and i believe in cuts and eliminations in ALL areas of govt, not just social programs. did you ever read the book ALIVE? true story of a group of guys and some fam members are flying from uruguay to chile to play rugby and their plane crashes in the andes and they are all alone at the top or near the top of a peak. about 13 or 14 survive and they have to work hard to stay alive but there are two guys who decide they wish not to work and help provide and they do nothing yet expect to enjoy the fruits of the other's labor, work. i do not mind helping those who cannot work but do not like having and yes, even creating, more like those two guys who just want others to provide for them. the occupy movement was mostly those people who want others to do for them. we need to quit creating more and more people dependent, expecting, others to do for them and that is the aspect i hate, detest.

This post was edited on 7/13 10:59 AM by WebSpinner

 

[MolivaManiac]

I don't see characterization of anyone as 'deadbeat', on this thread at least. I think everyone understands there is real pain out there.

I think the question I would ask is "How does raising taxes on anyone, no matter their income, help right now?"

 

[LKNSPIDER]

A point that is often overlooked regarding high unemployment rates in a community as referenced by T.
in Martinsville is the lack of people's willingness to relocate for a job or to accept employment below their education and experience levels. Ten million (estimated) Hispanics have crossed the border and migrated wherever necessary in the U. S. to find employment. I have heard this point from T and a friend in Coshocton , Ohio ….another town that has been passed by with technology and jobs moving off shore.
There are thousands and thousands of jobs across this country if people will relocate or accept entry level employment to get their feet financially back on the ground.

I do not support increasing tax rates …period. The Fed along with many city and state governments are so poorly managed, have wasted our tax dollars and used up all available credit…..that now facing bankruptcy and credit downgrades are the only alternatives Finance and economic courses teach that no one will loan or make capital available unless there is a creditable story that it can repaid. Yet our governments usually only considers one alternative…..raise taxes and take more from those who have it. Private industries would fail by the minute if the only economic strategy was to raise customers' prices.

Now my platform to fix the mess this country finds itself is fairly simple …….but sadly has no chance in
my life time: ·
Term limits…. term limits and term limits for Congress…2 senate terms ….. 4 house terms!!! (No exceptions)

Every American must spend two years of service in the US government…..civil or military….and then will be vested in the appreciation of liberty, justice and freedom for all in the USA . ·
Every American should pay some income tax no matter how small the amount.

Without a doubt, TERM LIMITS on politicians would rid the country of grid lock faster than any other ideas that have been presented. It is as simple as getting the foxes out of the "hen house".

This post was edited on 7/13 2:26 PM by LKNSPIDER

This post was edited on 7/13 2:27 PM by LKNSPIDER

 

[MolivaManiac]

How about a 1 term limit on the President? I used to think it was weird how Virginia does it, but have really grown to love it.

You wouldn't have to deal with this "Spend everyone's money for 3 years ... campaign for 1 year" BS that we currently get from the Executive Branch.

 

[WebSpinner]

LKN, was thinking the same thing. remember sam kennison (sp) the standup comedian and actor while discussing the plight of those living in an area of africa that was being taken over by desert and saying, MOVE, MOVE!! southside VA has been hit very badly for a long time and those folks really do need to look at the real world and decide if continuing to live there is in their best interest, maybe it is, maybe not but they have options, are not mandated, at least yet, by the govt, to have to stay there.

 

[urfan1]

The "just move" is not as simple as it sounds. Just a few factors, the age of the person, their family, the number of the family, the health of the person, they are unwater in debt and cannot finance a move, the list can go on and on... I'm sure though some would say "just more excuses". BTW, I know several companies that hire "legal aliens", I have spoken to some and they often come to the US on a short terms basis, ie come in make enough money and go home. I recall speaking with one group that told me their average stay was four years because they cold come here, works their butts off, go home with the money saved and they would live comfortably at home for the rest of their lives with minimal income


I agree with Spinner and others, government spends way to much money, they are one of the most wasteful, inefficent entitties I know of; but there are certain things private industry, cannot or wil lnot provide and the government must. I think public housing was a huge mistake, it congregated the poor and the illiterate. Generations are still stuck in the lifestyle (often beceause they do not know better), but nobody wants them next door to them, so we continue putting them in compact groups with likeminded poor role models.


I like LKN's list, I would add to it, anyone receiving public aid is limited to 6 months and then must prove they are still "needy" or "qualify". Some would give up rather than fight this headache, we would catch more fraud, and we have a better chance to see who's trying and who's just taking advantage. Another thing I would do is, with exception of certain core services and capital projects, every bill passed would have sunset provision built in. If it's a good program it will be continued, if it has outlived itself it will be ended or at least modified. Can you imagine the waste cut from government if every program had to prove its worth every five years!

 

[WebSpinner]

most of these ideas are just plain common sense but you will probably never see them discussed, voted on or implemented with the current mindset in DC. too many legislators who feel that we should be providing cradle to grave freebies to all and that govt is the answer to all problems. moving is very difficult, have done so myself numerous times but certainly there comes a time when one must evaluate their situation and do what is best for them, no matter the difficulty and uncomfortableness involved. we just moved to texas after retirement, mainly due to being closer to our grand kids but was not easy. the fact that we had lived in various states during my career, was a big factor in our decision in that we knew what it was like to go to a new location, how long it takes to acclimate, etc. the housing market here is great, first house we looked at was 5 bedrooms, 4 baths, 3300 sq ft, pool, immaculate yard and neighborhood, $210,000. i asked the realtor if it was built on a waste dump or something, was not and we did not buy it. no state income tax, low cost of living, yet pro sports, college sports, beaches, not nearly as nice as the atlantic beaches in VA, NC or SC but beaches. there are nice places all over our country to move to, some with better job opportunities and people should consider doing it if it fits or if they need to change, no matter how painful.

 

[tarrantula]

Aha! Common Ground! I would agree with my good friend LKN's list of priorities for the most part. I would mention to him in regard to the comment that the unemployed need to go where the jobs are...many here are doing that. Quite a few folks here commute to Greensboro/Winston/Raleigh these days. These folks come from both management and labor positions. The problem for many of the wage earners is that they don't know where to go... are not sophisticated enough to know where to find jobs that would justify a move...don't have any money at all and can't pay for the move, etc


Management folks have moved away. On one dark day not long after I moved here about 70 local management jobs were abolished in the course of moving manufacturing to Asia.Our neighborhood was hit hard. My next door neighbor who is a graduate level engineer signed on with a company that sends experienced engineers to companies who have short term need for such experience. For the past five years he has commuted to various places...worked in Louisianna for an oil company on a project for about 8 months, then in California, then in Germany and currently commutes to Washington state and Iowa. He is forced to be away from his family for long periods of time. He is a very talented man and is paid well, but has found that the market for permanent positions for a 60 year old man is limited. Others have moved on, but their homes are still vacant...the for sale signs dot our neighborhood. Very few people moving here with the income to afford even the sharply reduced prices these sellers are asking. Several in my golf group were among this group. Five years ago we had a seniors group that would have 4 to 5 foursomes each outing. Now, many of those have moved elsewhere and others who had to take early retirement have withdrawn from the club. We have not been able to raise more than one foursome this year.


This is not a taxing issue, but speaks to the perception of some that large numbers of the unemployed block choose to stay that way. There are limits and conditions to unemployment benefits, you can't just stay on the dole forever. But there are folks who live by the support of their families, by illegal income(selling drugs is popular), or through the help of churches, etc. The portion of the population who pay no taxes include the handicapped, the elderly, the homeless and those who are temporarily making so little that they pay no taxes. Insurance companies force hospitals to sue folks who have no insurance and can't pay the large bills that come with inpatient treatment of an injury or illness. The hospitals then garnish wages to recover the debt.. and folks have to choose between buying food and medicine or paying the landlord, so they are evicted from their homes. I have seen this many times. It's not the fault of the people, nor the insurance comparies or hospitals. It is a product of hard times that have seen companies reduce benefits such as low cost insurance and a sparsity of better paying jobs.


I come back to my main complaint. Our representatives are too focused on partisan differences to sit down together and work on answers to our share of a world wide problem.

 

[tarrantula]

To follow up on the last thought of my previous post, I would submit to you a portion of an article from the AARP BULLETIN
which I picked up after leaving my computer. It is titled: "Try Greatness, Not Meanness". The author, who is unnamed, talks

of the bitter rivalries that existed between Washington, Adams and Hamilton in the early years of our governent. He goes on to commend "what they accomplished when they set aside their vanity, ideology and shortsightedness: a federation of distinct regional and economic interests bound by core principles and liberties upon which a carefully balanced national government could function and thrive." He quotes a cooment by the President of Allgheny College James Mullen on the current gridlock: "a disgracefull stew of invective...a continuing contest in which each side of the partisan divide sees itself as right and the other as evil, uncaring or unpatriotic." The author goes on to say that the crisis on the National debt must be resolved now. "To do nothing all but guarantees a second recession, according to the Congressional budget Office...John Adams could just as easily been talking about today when he wrote in 1776 of his fears that the Continental Congress' decisions would be dictated by "noise, not sense; by meanness, not greatness; by ignorance, not learning; by contracted hearts, not large souls." We need to find statesmen on both sides of the aisle who can get their hardheaded companions to listen to the need for reason and compromise and come up with solutions rather than settling for a chance to apportion blame.

 

[WebSpinner]

first, the people have to decide which direction the country needs to go, more govt, less govt, more spending, less spending, free enterprise, govt controls or take over of industries. we seem to be divided on these issues, core issues. if we do nothing, at some point, it will take care of itself and we will collapse financially and have to start over from zero. if all people, legislators will look at the debt clock, spend some time with it, then even those who do not know a dollar from a penny, will realize we cannot sustain what we have been doing for decades, hiding money, spending too much money, taking on programs we cannot afford and should not be involved with at all. some just want to do things that make them feel good even though it is not the right thing to do at all but, they say, we had good intentions. intentions, good or bad, don't cut it, common sense does. from my experience of looking, studying, a compromise is no good if they do not follow thru. have seen so many times where we have raised taxes and promised to cut spending but the spending cuts just do not happen so think that it is futile for any legislator to compromise on that issue but we do need to spend less, everyone can figure that out. if they do not figure that out, we will go down, no other way, then we will all be miserable not just a small percentage. no matter what kind of society one lives in there will always be those who struggle are at the bottom, could be mental illness, addiction, laziness, whatever but they will always be there. in other years, those people took care of themselves, maybe with some help from family members, their church and they pulled themselves out of it but today, they just look for someone to take care of them. T, our bud WA, told me about a woman who lives near them and that she was always complaining about not having any money to pay for the things she needed so he began helping her out but then one day visited her place and found a 60# flat panel and full direct tv and other stuff that a destitute person should not have a all and he cut her off immediately. that is one prob, no matter one's income, they seem to think that they still deserve the non-essential items that others have, live way beyond where they should be living. not throwing all folks in need into that pot but it does happen. everyone feels for those in need, especially if not their fault, have been there but you have to possess the will to fight, have confidence in yourself not the govt to pull yourself out and go on, not fall back on green checks for your entire life.

 

[tarrantula]

Yeah, Spinner it's all about fairness. We cannot make people perfect. some are lazy and iresponsible; some are well motivated but inhibited by circumstances. We need to first see to the common welfare....what is best for the geater mass of people and the economic stability of the country. The questions are about spending, taxing, apportionment of money taken in to various purposes...priorities. We need our decision makers to sit down withthe attitude that fixing this thing is the priority and that "fixing" means emerging with a stable economy, security from foreign threats, preservation of fair and equal opportunity so much as our means afford and protection of the principles of our constitution.

 

[WebSpinner]

T, agree with you but we both know that "priorities" are so skewed right now, some want everything free, others know that is not possible or right, at least within our culture. not sure what is going to happen but feel we will have to endure a catastrophic event in order for us to get our heads screwed on straight. maybe we start shipping those who want socialism to those countries, communism, to those countries, libertarian views to those countries and immigrating those who pine for free enterprise and our way of life or maybe former way of life....lol. also agree that our country is about providing opportunities not outcomes. know very rich people who are miserable and very poor people who are so happy with their lives.

This post was edited on 7/14 2:28 PM by WebSpinner

 

[SpiderRick]

Originally posted by GKiller:




anyway this wasn't my intent, I want to keep my money as much as the next guy but the last place I'll look for it is from the bottom 20.

Here's an idea. Maybe if Congress quit spending so much, maybe we wouldn't need to look for it anywhere.



BTW, with my job I'm driving through housing projects every day. You wouldn'd believe the number of healthy looking able-body people sitting around just hanging out (but only in the afternoons, they usually sleep in til then).



And one more thing. I have little sympathy for the poor who don't want to work. I grew up poor, my dad was a high school dropout from coal mining country of WVa. I worked hard, and I think I did okay.


This post was edited on 7/14 5:37 PM by SpiderRick

 

[LKNSPIDER]

T........You have more insight into the troubled segment of our population and work force than most and your comments drive home good points about fairness and human souls.

At the risk of sounding too cynical how can you explain your comment "The problem for many of the wage earners is that they don't know where to go... are not sophisticated enough to know where to find jobs that would justify a move...don't have any money at all and can't pay for the move, etc" ...[/B]when millions of Hispanics and legal immigrants (especially Asians) come into our country with nothing in their pockets and establish themselves as wage earners? Why can they find jobs but unemployed Americans cannot?


Last point ...back to the term limits idea.....sounds like a solid platform for a third party.

 

[Anachnoid]

"BTW, with my job I'm driving through housing projects every day. You wouldn'd believe the number of healthy looking able-body people sitting around just hanging out (but only in the afternoons, they usually sleep in til then)."


Maybe they're trust fund 'babies" or have night jobs.

 

[WebSpinner]

unfortunately, all third parties do is take votes away from one party or the other and ensure a winner who probably would not have won otherwise. clinton would not have won if perot had not been in the race, for example. if a party could rise and be funded and be accepted quickly then OK but just don't see that happening though would love to see it. both of these parties are too entrenched in DC and want to grow govt more and more, no matter what they say in public.

 

[LKNSPIDER]

Spinner ....maybe terms limits is an issue that disgruntled from both parties could get behind. This is not a divisive conservative vs liberal issue. I agree that Clinton defeated George 41 only because of Perot taking away votes from Bush. Term limits would be the biggest constitutional issue since integration in 1954. It is the only answer to "grid lock".

 

[tarrantula]

LKN...to answer your question about traveling to find work and a comparison of our citizens and the folks moving here from South America, I would first say that I am not informed enough to give a credible answer. The Spanish speaking population is well informed and industrious. How they travel and how they know where to go is a mystery to me for the most part. I do know that Latino fruit pickers who came to Patrick were recruited in Texas and brought there by companies to do the work. Many stayed in the area and took other jobs.



Many of our own furniture workers did leave when the jobs disappeared in 2005-2007. I mentioned the management folks who lost jobs on one dark day in 2008...there were hundreds of laborers for every one of them. Many of our folks from management and labor have scattered across the country. As for the thousands of folks still here who once worked in our factories, many found other jobs only to see those jobs go away. It is not just industry that is declining here...our local mall is mostly empty storefronts.The building industry has slowed and jobs there have been lost, etc, etc. But I think that many of you make assumptions about the unemployed that are not completely accurate



I live on the opposite side of town from my workplace and on the way each morning I pass many folks walking or riding bicycles to work. Whenever there is a new job opportunity announced here, it is met by a flood of applications.Rick, did it ever occur to you that the folks you see in those neighborhoods could include people who answer job calls, but get turned down again and again. It's tough when there are 1,000 applicants for 130 jobs. Can you grasp the dispair of their poverty?. The bottom line is that there has always been a segment of the population that prefers to loaf, but today there are many unemployed who answer every job call, have had job after job that was lost to downsizing, have lost their homes, walk because they can't afford a car, have no health insurance to get treatment for family members and live in dispair and humiliation. I don't assign blame for that..the poor economy is a worldwide problem. but, to hear those who enjoy security, luxury and comfort make assumptions and accusations about people they don't know, who live in poverty, strikes a wrong cord with me. The economic problems of our time were not created by the working class.. they didn't create the banking crisis, the wasteful government spending, the removal of workplaces to Asia and South America, etc. Many of those folks walking the streets may be folks who have tried again and again, but the opportunity wasn't there. People who live in large houses shouldn't throw stones.

This post was edited on 7/15 11:47 AM by tarrantula

 

[WebSpinner]

don't live in a big house, never have, have lived with no food or money and do not throw stones but i do read a lot, observe things that work and do not work and certainly have ideas which i do not mind spewing. feel all understand and have empathy for those who are out of luck or have hit a wall but guess there are differing opinions as to what should happen. do know, and you do as well, that the "great society" has created a vicious cycle of poverty with very few ways out but the folks who live below the poverty line in our country, on average, have two tvs, a car and a roof over their heads as opposed to other countries' poor. even if we are lucky enough to turn this world, probably depression, around over the next few years, we are still going to have poor people, always have, always will. there are twice as many whites living under the poverty level as blacks although a higher % of the black population reside there. we do need to change the mindset and not have folks receiving checks all of their lives, must have some end-date or other incentive to stop it. that is not being mean or insensitive, it is to attempt to end this madness of just paying people all their lives and keeping them where they are rather than giving them hope of getting out of that deal. just doing things because it feels good, is done with compassion, does not mean it is the right thing to do. do not know the solutions but bet there have to be better things we could be doing to try and make people's lives more productive, getting their heads up and feeling better about themselves. one thing we can do is get our work atmosphere back to where businesses want to do business here not over there, have to make it attractive, more financially feasible......was reading about a company CEO who wanted to build his new plant in the US, really wanted it here but it was going to cost him something like a $100,000,000 more to do that, so he built overseas. that just should not happen. if we want to put our people back to work have to quit calling business, crooks, and profits evil and creating an atmosphere where they have to, want to go elsewhere. of course, those who are crooks, should be charged and sent away, am talking about the majority of business not the small number who do things the wrong way. the current admin vilifies business, states that profits are evil and then wonders why businesses are afraid to expand, create jobs, do anything positive. they have to change their mindset, if they are truly serious, about creating jobs and turning this mess around. we can bring our businesses home, if we create the right atmosphere and understand what is needed to keep them here and badmouthing them and pointing fingers at them is not the right way to do it.

This post was edited on 7/15 4:27 PM by WebSpinner

This post was edited on 7/15 4:28 PM by WebSpinner

 

[spider fan]

Part of the dynamic is that the USA has the highest corporate tax rates in the industrialized world, and proposed higher rates on capital (gains and dividends) will reduce U.S. corporate investment or drive it overseas. The government's (federal, state, and local) share of GDP, formerly GNP, is at its highest levels since World War II and on a continuing projected increase along with our national debt. It may be called the "dismal science" but the rules of economics do not change and our present course is unsustainable.

 

[tarrantula]

spider fan, I was surprised to find that you are right...after Japan recently reduced their rate, Reuters reports that we now have the highest rate at 39.2 %. Our tax code does include loopholes that allow entities income shelters that don't apply in other countries, but the perception created by the naked rate has to have a negative effect on business.




All of us who have posted here have spoken to the need for reduced spending, but I expect that when we get to the specifics of that premise there will be great disagreement. I hesitate to have that discussion because I fear angry responses. Nonetheless, my interest is in developing my own sentiments on these issues and I can't understand the issues without study and debate. It is just too late tonight to begin the conversation. It's easy to find the pie charts that show percentages of spending, but we need to discuss each area in detail. I would enjoy being part of this as long as the discussions are civil. Maybe next week we can begin an analysis, category by category on how our money is spent. I would advocate talking about one small piece at a time.

This post was edited on 7/15 10:15 PM by tarrantula

This post was edited on 7/15 10:16 PM by tarrantula

 

[WebSpinner]

my take is to cut 10% or more from every piece of the pie, period. that is just a start. also i don't mean fake cuts, like reducing the rate of increase by 10%, i mean a real 10%. most people do not realize that when congress talks about cutting, they are talking about reducing the rate of increase in a budget, not actually cutting back, that is a sham. we need to eliminate departments, reduce departments, eliminate programs, reduce programs. defense has been gutted ever since the berlin wall came down and is still being cut but have not seen similar reductions in other areas. i don't care about fairness or anything else, just want our govt to spend within their means and quit running up trillion dollar deficits each and every year, stupid, scary, unsustainable. also want them to quit creating new programs when we cannot pay for the ones we have now. no business is allowed to run themselves financially like this, the govt will not let them so why should they be able to do this? we cannot run VA or TX like this, so why should they be able to do it? this is just common sense, no compassion, crying, feeling sorry, just plain common sense. would suggest besides the cutting, no new laws pass for several years and spend that time taking laws OFF the books that are antiquated and asinine and bet there are thousands of them. would also recommend that each state do the same, quit legislating new stuff and get your old legislated stuff out of our faces. we are being smothered by rules, regulations, laws.

This post was edited on 7/16 7:16 AM by WebSpinner

 

[tarrantula]

That's a proposal that would be a good starting point for a discussion. I have done no more research than looking at the pie chart, so can't respond in agreement or disagreement. This study would take time and I will never use what I learn other than to form an opinion, but that alone (pure curiosity) is a good incentive.


By the way, I did have a job that brought me in constant contact with all levels of our population, but more frequently with the low income folks than other segments. I did something that Spinner might appreciate and which educated me a bit to the fact that we are all individuals and can not be summed up by generalities. I started a jobs program for my regular "customers". This was back in the '80s when things were flourishing here. I assumed that if they were working regularly, they would be less likely to spend as mush time with me. I called friends who were in management at companies here and asked them to provide me with two jobs each(minimum wage) that I could use as an alternative to the regular "results" for these folks. I ended up with 8 jobs. The results were a mixed bag. In some instances, the folks I sent over did not show up regularly and were fired. But, in other situations, I got compliments on their perfomance. One fellow known as "Cool John", a very tough customer got rave reviews. The plant manager of a local knitting mill was a very good friend and reluctantly agreed to use one of mine to fill a job the company had trouble filling anyway. The job was in a boiler room...very hot and lonely work. My friend called me a month after he started and reported that he was an excellant worker, did tasks withour being told and was kept on by the company until the plant closed about 10 years after I last saw him.. I don't know what happened to him after that, but he did not reappear in my world.


My real window on what its like to live in poverty though came from my time in AAU basketball. I did this for 10 years and worked with some very fine teams. There were always kids whose families were involved, came to the games, traveled with us on the road. But, there were also others who family circumstances were mysteries. I have told some of those stories on here before and won't go back through that again, but with some kids I was shocked to eventually find out about their home circumstances. Noone on here can imagine how these kids lived...no TVs here, Spinner, in some instances the families didn't even have electricity. So, when we complain about our taxes, we have to remember that among those who pay no taxes are some folks whose lives are bleak beyond our imaginations.

 

[SFspidur]

Yes, defense spending has just been gutted, hasn't it?

Although maybe you're right if you correctly classify some of those expenditures as offense rather than defense.
This post was edited on 7/16 10:04 AM by SFspidur

 

[WebSpinner]

T, no amount of sad stories changes the fact that our country cannot continue what it is doing. i realize that there are people who are just in terrible shape, for various reasons, some out of their control some because of their choices or work ethic. i remember having no food and i also remember my parents taking action and me as a boy taking a paper route and working, underage, in a restaurant to help. am not trying to say my circumstances were as bad or worse than some of the folks you have encountered but do know that you can try and beat it or just give up and depend on others. i know we will have to support some folks with our taxes but we should not just continue to do it for a lifetime, we have to be better, do better than that, not acceptable. for sure we have to agree that the defense of our country is one of the core basics and is provided for in our constitution, taking care of poor people is not. we do it because that is who we are as a people, we have sympathy and we want to help but we need to define "help" as opposed to creating dependent people instead of productive people. i don't care how the pie is sliced, we have to cut it down to size and no amount of taxes being increased is going to help our spending addiction. that is the core problem, spending and both parties have to understand that, and make actual cuts, not fake cuts, not just words, not just promises but actual action, actual cuts. i doubt that they will do anything other than make promises for cuts over the next 10 years or something stupid like that and if we see that, then they are not serious and we will see no cuts at all. they have to make cuts NOW and across the board, no exceptions, everything gets cut. the easiest or best way is to just cut all govt checks, ALL, by 10%, that way it is immediate and across the board and we know it is happening, not promises but actually addressing the problem. i will never count on that happening, have seen it too often, they will not do it and it is going to take a financial catastrophe for anything meaningful to happen and that is a shame because this is just common sense and there should be no bickering, no negotiations, just action.