Durkin sucks, we never wanted him, he'd be sitting on the end of our bench for four years, etc. I think we all agree on that. Now, moving on...
Bobby Durkin - 2023 Offer
- Thread starter SFspidur
- Start date
Not getting Durkin is unfortunate, but it is far more important to look at who we do get. Based on who we have been getting lately, it is likely that our next recruit will be at Durkin's level or higher. Two thirds of our incoming recruits are rated higher than Durkin, and probably 2/3 of our transfer portals as well. So it isn't like we are now going to have to add another Chandler Deikvoss to our roster because we missed on Durkin. Mooney made it clear there is no longer a Plan B highschooler in the age of the portal.
sman agree some overlap with Tanner and Noyes. IMO it seems this guy is the more polished and accomplished shooter and talent at the same stage. And will no doubt benefit from IMG. He has a very similar player in Reed - who had multiple high level offers ahead of him at Davidson. We shall see. Hopefully Noyes gets some run this year. Not a big fan of guys getting stuck on the bench for years, and then coming back and being super impactful. I'm sure there are hundreds of examples, but hopefully Noyes is good enough to get some good PT this year.
Deikvoss wakes up this morning, logs onto Spiderfans ... "oh come on!".
I think that Noyes is going to be a pleasant surprise. Time will tell if it is this year or next.
with his athleticism and shooting ... I think it would be a surprise if he isn't a pleasant surprise.
only thing holding him back out of HS was strength and opportunity.
Only issue with Noyes, is I think he has to get some playing time this year or else its probably not looking good for him. I don't think many players under Mooney have gone 2 years without playing and then turned into something on Mooney's team. And just not sure how many minutes he can find this year with Quinn, Grace, and Bigelow likely ahead of him and then you still have Burton who might help out some when needed. Noyes opportunity might be more of next season - when Grace, Burton, and Bigelow are gone - but if that is the case, I would like to see him get some experience this year - even just 5-10 minutes a game.
I hate to say it - but Noyes might be the stereotypical "I need to find him more minutes" guy.
I hate to say it - but Noyes might be the stereotypical "I need to find him more minutes" guy.
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I think the point is that the momentum has ended. It is always disappointing when a recruit picks another school, but really hurts when it is another A10 program (especially Davidson).
It could turn out fine depending on what the portal may bring as well as the fact the staff now has more time to determine the greatest needs.
I think everyone has to be pleased with the recruits that have verbally committed and it does seem like recruiting is on the upswing.
unlikely that Bigelow is gone next year. like Quinn, he has 2 years of eligibility. we expect them here for both years.
Quinn has no bearing on his playing time. Noyes will probably find a little time this years and compete for time with Tanner next year.
Help me if I'm not reading you right, but are you saying Reed and Durkin are similar type players...because the only thing they seem to have in common is they can shoot, but totally different players/games
I was not aware Bigelow had another year - this year will be his 5th year of college, so possible he could leave. But may depend on how this year goes. I think Quinn could impact his playing time because with Quinn at 7 feet and if he is dominant like some on this board hope he will be - then you might look at the forward spot and think differently about that position, depending on how many minutes and how well Quinn can play. Like a guy like Burton - who is not a PF, but with a dominant center who can rebound and take care of the inside work, Burton could probably play more PF type position - but in reality - we play smaller with the other 4 positions because we have a dominant big man in Quinn. It would be a nice problem to have - so we will have to wait and see.
yeah, Mooney mentioned that all 3 transfers have multiple years left and that was important in targeting them. Quinn and Bigelow have 2 while Roche has 3. so I think the assumption is he'll be here next year but I guess we can't be sure.
He's talking about Reed Bailey, who Durkin will be competing for time against at Davidson. Bailey is also a wing, though he's listed at an astounding 6'11".
We absolutely brought Bigelow in with the expectation that he will be here for two years, Mooney has mentioned it several times. Could he decide to move on after this year...sure, but that's not the current plan.
Yep, I messed that up with the two kind of first name thing. But I was thinking this guy used to be listed at 6'8 and a wing, did not realize he was that big. That certainly may have helped sell Durkin on the opportunity at the wing spot as it seems he is listed as a PF and his coach mentions him as an interior player.
True but I dont think we’ve had many years where there were this many experienced guys ahead of the freshmen and he did redshirt as a result. If he hasn’t played much by next year then I’d be more worried.
I think Noyes should have a mentality that he is going to step up and win the minutes over Bigelow and others. If not, he won’t see the floor much in his career.
Agree with this. Not just Noyes, but I want to recruit guys with this mentality in general. I know Reed mentioned that he wants to play early.
reading between the lines in the JOC article, I'd expect 3 freshmen to play ... at least early on when the rotations run deeper. Nelson obviously will play the most.
sounds like Dread and Randolph are long shots to get any time.
Walz might be an early surprise and get the minutes behind Quinn at the 5.
that means Grace plays almost all his time at the 4 backed up probably by Bigelow, possibly Noyes.
there aren't many minutes available behind Burton at the 3, but that's a fight between Crabtree and Noyes.
Goose/Roche split maybe 25/15 at the SG spot.
same for Nelson/Bailey at the point.
sounds like Dread and Randolph are long shots to get any time.
Walz might be an early surprise and get the minutes behind Quinn at the 5.
that means Grace plays almost all his time at the 4 backed up probably by Bigelow, possibly Noyes.
there aren't many minutes available behind Burton at the 3, but that's a fight between Crabtree and Noyes.
Goose/Roche split maybe 25/15 at the SG spot.
same for Nelson/Bailey at the point.
Sman, you got all of that from the article? And, no way is the rotation a case of one guy coming in for another at a specific position. I know you refuse to come off the 1-5 position stuff, even though no coach out there coaches like that anymore, but at some point, you need to realize that is not how coaches sub. You have Goose and Roche at 25/15, saying they never will be on the floor together? Grace, Tyler, Bigelow, Noyes, Crabtree, Roche, and Goose are not locked into specific position spots. Why would we do that? What's the benefit of limiting your line up possibilities by coaching that way? We will go smaller at times, so you can't just lock in Tyler at your 3. You want to lock Grace into your 4 spot, but I see no reason why Grace can't both back up Quinn and play with him. It is common for PGs and bigs to have back ups, but I just don't know of any coaches out there who rotate each of the other 3 spots like you say.
yes there will be flexibility. especially if/when Mooney tightens the rotation.
I started based on JOC's comments on Walz. he's getting that from Mooney. Walz is clearly a 5 (yes, the positions still have numbers). so while JOC said he can backup both Quinn and Grace, I believe if he's getting time it's only behind Quinn at the 5. so there aren't many minutes at the 5 for Grace. that makes him primarily a forward.. of course, foul trouble or injury or poor play can move Grace to a bigger role at the 5.
I agree Burton could spend time as the bigger forward on the floor when Grace is out. yes, Goose and Roche could spend time together. but it will be tough to find much time for that if Burton's playing a forward spot 35 mpg and Grace is playing forward a lot. I know Mooney has mentioned Goose at point, but it doesn't compute if Nelson is starting and if Dji is going to be a big factor. I guess you can play Goose and Dji and call Goose the one, but they're both playing the guard spots.
back to position flexibility ... you start with someone that can play the 5 and someone that can play the point. those positions are a must in every lineup. there is flexibility by player for most of the wing spots. but we're never going to have Burton or Grace (and probably not Bigelow or Noyes) as the 2nd guard on the floor. there will always be a guy who's more of a guard type. that guy's the 2. just as we're never going to have Goose or Roche as the biggest wing on the floor. there's a bigger guy out there that most people will call the 4.
I know you'll come back with "that's not how coaches substitute", but they do. look at every lineup we put out there. you can always see where everyone fits, even though some (most) players have the flexibility to play more than one spot.
I started based on JOC's comments on Walz. he's getting that from Mooney. Walz is clearly a 5 (yes, the positions still have numbers). so while JOC said he can backup both Quinn and Grace, I believe if he's getting time it's only behind Quinn at the 5. so there aren't many minutes at the 5 for Grace. that makes him primarily a forward.. of course, foul trouble or injury or poor play can move Grace to a bigger role at the 5.
I agree Burton could spend time as the bigger forward on the floor when Grace is out. yes, Goose and Roche could spend time together. but it will be tough to find much time for that if Burton's playing a forward spot 35 mpg and Grace is playing forward a lot. I know Mooney has mentioned Goose at point, but it doesn't compute if Nelson is starting and if Dji is going to be a big factor. I guess you can play Goose and Dji and call Goose the one, but they're both playing the guard spots.
back to position flexibility ... you start with someone that can play the 5 and someone that can play the point. those positions are a must in every lineup. there is flexibility by player for most of the wing spots. but we're never going to have Burton or Grace (and probably not Bigelow or Noyes) as the 2nd guard on the floor. there will always be a guy who's more of a guard type. that guy's the 2. just as we're never going to have Goose or Roche as the biggest wing on the floor. there's a bigger guy out there that most people will call the 4.
I know you'll come back with "that's not how coaches substitute", but they do. look at every lineup we put out there. you can always see where everyone fits, even though some (most) players have the flexibility to play more than one spot.
I am glad you cleared some of that up, and that was my point about the position flexibility. I agree about us having a PG and a big, and then we have the other 3. This post was dramatically different than your previous one, as it seemed like earlier you were saying a 1 will back up a 1, 2 a 2, 3 a 3, 4 a 4, and 5 a 5, and most guys will only play those spots.
Anyway, I'm not sure Walz will be Quinn's main back up. If he is, that is maybe 15 minutes a game for him if Quinn is at 25. If he is ready for that, great, but being a true freshman at that spot, I doubt he is, and I think we would be better off playing him less when we have so much other experienced talent on this team.
I could definitely see Roche and Goose on the floor with Tyler and either Grace or Quinn. If Roche is hitting 3s and Goose is taking an opponent's key guy out of the game, as we expect to happen a lot, it would not make sense to limit our best defender and our best 3 point guy to 40 combined minutes.
Anyway, I'm not sure Walz will be Quinn's main back up. If he is, that is maybe 15 minutes a game for him if Quinn is at 25. If he is ready for that, great, but being a true freshman at that spot, I doubt he is, and I think we would be better off playing him less when we have so much other experienced talent on this team.
I could definitely see Roche and Goose on the floor with Tyler and either Grace or Quinn. If Roche is hitting 3s and Goose is taking an opponent's key guy out of the game, as we expect to happen a lot, it would not make sense to limit our best defender and our best 3 point guy to 40 combined minutes.
I know that there has been some evidence to support Grace starting at the 4, and Walz playing as a true freshman, but I still don't like it. Apart from a potentially impotent offense with just 1 college proven 3 point shooter in the starting lineup, there just aren't enough minutes to go around if Walz is playing. And we lose Walz for a potential redshirt senior year.
Here is a possible minutes breakdown with Walz redshirting and Grace the backup 4/5:
34 Burton
28 Quinn
28 Nelson
25 Roche
25 Gustavson
25 Bailey
20 Grace
10 Bigelow
5 Crabtree/Noyes/Randolph/Dread
Even without Walz, I suspect multiple players will be unhappy with their playing time. Where do you want to take the minutes to give to Walz? There could be some information I don't have, like Walz doesn't want to redshirt or Burton doesn't want to be the 4.
Here is a possible minutes breakdown with Walz redshirting and Grace the backup 4/5:
34 Burton
28 Quinn
28 Nelson
25 Roche
25 Gustavson
25 Bailey
20 Grace
10 Bigelow
5 Crabtree/Noyes/Randolph/Dread
Even without Walz, I suspect multiple players will be unhappy with their playing time. Where do you want to take the minutes to give to Walz? There could be some information I don't have, like Walz doesn't want to redshirt or Burton doesn't want to be the 4.
makes sense, Moutain, but I don't think we'll "developmentally" redshirt Walz if he's healthy and ready to contribute. I would think JOC/Mooney would be quieter about him if he wasn't going to play. but we'll see.
Grace's best position might at the forward anyway. and despite the stats, we've heard a lot about him as a shooter. we do need shooting.
Grace's best position might at the forward anyway. and despite the stats, we've heard a lot about him as a shooter. we do need shooting.
Burton was the 2 during stretches vs. Iowa, when Goose was in foul trouble and Moon went Gilly, Burton, Cayo, Grace, Golden. So there is very recent precedent to do so against a big team.
The Auburn game Burton's freshman year, both our bigs got 2 fouls in a matter of minutes and Burton had to play a defacto center in a small lineup (he also then picked up 3 fouls that half, refs were the worst that game.)
Whoever plays the best will fit in wherever Moon can slot them in, simply by playing better. Shooters, defenders, scorers, bigs, ballhandlers - all needed, but UR has guys with a lot of flexibility this year so Moon has options at guard and wing.
The Auburn game Burton's freshman year, both our bigs got 2 fouls in a matter of minutes and Burton had to play a defacto center in a small lineup (he also then picked up 3 fouls that half, refs were the worst that game.)
Whoever plays the best will fit in wherever Moon can slot them in, simply by playing better. Shooters, defenders, scorers, bigs, ballhandlers - all needed, but UR has guys with a lot of flexibility this year so Moon has options at guard and wing.
I think more minutes for Bigelow. He can give you 3s, rebounding, size, and defensively can guard a lot of different players. Dji can give us ball handling and can guard other guards, but I wonder about scoring, and I don't think he is as versatile as Bigelow. Time will tell, and I could be wrong, but I am thinking more like Grace 25, Bigelow 20, Dji 10 if you are giving those 3 a combined 55 minutes. As for Tyler, he should welcome more time at the "4" if you want to call it that because a lot of NBA teams are going smaller and have a guy like Tyler as their 2nd biggest guy out there. I don't think any NBA lineups have the old school power forwards anymore.
Hmm, just thinking about front court (wing/PF/C) -
I feel like Quinn and Burton are going to get big minutes every night if not in foul trouble, and Bigelow and Grace will be more situational depending on the game, opponents strength, etc. I don't see Walz getting a ton of time, but he may surprise.
Bigelow | 23 |
Grace | 24 |
Quinn | 29 |
Burton | 35 |
Noyes | 6 |
Walz | 3 |
I feel like Quinn and Burton are going to get big minutes every night if not in foul trouble, and Bigelow and Grace will be more situational depending on the game, opponents strength, etc. I don't see Walz getting a ton of time, but he may surprise.
Yes, the minutes could definitely be different than what I suggested, but my point was simply we don't have enough minutes to go around, so I prefer Walz redshirts to mitigate the issue. He will offer us much more in a fifth year than he will this year.
Don't have an issue with that at all. Redshirt him unless we need him. If Quinn and Grace stay healthy, we likely would not need him this year.
With more guard heavy lineups out there these days, and thinking we will have Goose and Roche out there together at times, I am thinking the guys you listed at maybe closer to a combined 110 minutes instead of 120.
Agree, definitely could see three guards out there and eat into those minutes. Between Goose, Dji, Roche and Crab - all those guys can guard decent sized wing.
I don't know where the time comes from, but we're really light on Noyes.
we've read multiple times he's been impressive this summer. we know he's a shooter and probably a top 2 leaper on this roster with Burton.
the only question was strength and apparently he's gotten stronger.
I'm not big on projecting minutes without seeing them play, but this kid has a lot of potential.
we've read multiple times he's been impressive this summer. we know he's a shooter and probably a top 2 leaper on this roster with Burton.
the only question was strength and apparently he's gotten stronger.
I'm not big on projecting minutes without seeing them play, but this kid has a lot of potential.
I think the portal really changes how coaches need to think about playing time. Seems that gone are the days where you can not play a guy at all as a freshman while he develops and you are telling him his day will come. Coaches need to manage the outgoing side of the portal as much or more than the incoming side!
Guys now just leave if they don't see some commitment to them etc. We have been better than most at keeping guys, but its still a factor for us too. I think coaches now have to be looking down the road and guys they see contributing down the road have to get some playing time now - - perhaps earlier than they are truly ready for and sooner than they would have pre-portal.
This may be a little of what we see with Walz this year. He shown enough that we see him being a contributor down the road, so we are going to find some PT to show him we are committed, when in the past this might have been more a pure developmental year.
Its an interesting time to be a coach - - - portal management (both incoming and outgoing) is a whole new thing these days and very very important.
Guys now just leave if they don't see some commitment to them etc. We have been better than most at keeping guys, but its still a factor for us too. I think coaches now have to be looking down the road and guys they see contributing down the road have to get some playing time now - - perhaps earlier than they are truly ready for and sooner than they would have pre-portal.
This may be a little of what we see with Walz this year. He shown enough that we see him being a contributor down the road, so we are going to find some PT to show him we are committed, when in the past this might have been more a pure developmental year.
Its an interesting time to be a coach - - - portal management (both incoming and outgoing) is a whole new thing these days and very very important.
interesting point.
Mooney talked about managing players expectations in the interview with Katz. very important to be honest with players. you can't promise them the world and then not follow through. for some guys it will be a process. they can't all play right away.
Mooney talked about managing players expectations in the interview with Katz. very important to be honest with players. you can't promise them the world and then not follow through. for some guys it will be a process. they can't all play right away.
I think your under estimating some guys. Mooney almost always has 2, if not 3 guys over the 30 minute mark. While this team has a lot of new pieces, I still think this occurs.
36 - Burton
30- Nelson
30 - Goose
25 - Bigelow
24 - Grace
24 - Quinn
15 - Roche
8 - Crabtree
8 - Bailey
I think Goose, Roche, Crabtree and Bailey will see major swings depending on the game and performance. I can see games where Roche gets hot and plays a lot, and others where he doesn't and Goose plays a ton of a minutes. But I think to begin the season - Goose gets the benefit of the doubt and most minutes.
I also think Nelson dominates minutes early and often. I put Grace and Quinn equal - but I could see one jumping ahead of the other, but I feel Grace gets first crack at minutes early, but if he doesn't produce - I could see Quinn overtaking him. But I think it will be pretty even most of the year.
I just think we run out of room for Noyes. Maybe he gets minutes here and there - but I fear he falls into the all too famous line of "We got to find minutes for him".
You figure you got Quinn and Grace at the 5, and I think at times they may play together - not a a lot, but here and there depending on the opponent. I think Bigelow has the 4, and even Burton will play there some because I rarely see Burton coming off the floor. So that leaves very limited time for Noyes as I don't see him being on the perimeter too much, he doesn't seem athletic enough - and if you were to say he will play on the perimeter - he is not playing over Burton or Goose at this point.
I think we just run out of room for him this year.
I hope to hear something more soon on Bigelow. I can't get a feel for how much we'll use him. could be a 30 mpg guy or a 10 mpg guy.
not sure about your opinion on Noyes. he's crazy athletic. probably the biggest vertical on the team. and as I understand it he's a perimeter player, not an inside guy. no idea about lateral quickness, but anyone that can jump that high should be physically capable.
I'm thinking Crabtree might be the "I've got to find minutes for him" guy.
