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Are we better without Grant/Blake?

97spiderfan

97spiderfan

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Feb 2, 2005
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Watching the game last night and the intensity of our young guys and role players, I think the question needs to be asked. As good as Grant is on offense for us, he is basically a statue on defense, told not to foul, so as to never get in foul trouble. So, yeah, Sal fouled out but you know what he was really aggressive on both ends of the floor. Sal should have been seeing more minutes all year, dude can play.

Blake is a terrific scorer for us but he simply does not play within the confines of what we want to do on offense. Wilson and Dji are raw players, both made mistakes last night, only scored 4 points. So, no they didn't replace what Blake does, but man Wilson is an active player, Dji in very limited minutes all year, is a very rangy guard, who is able to D up taller guards from other teams.

And probably most notable of all. Mooney was completely unrestricted last night in his substitution patterns, playing with different line-up combo's and this gave the guys freedom to just hoop it up, not under his overly prescriptive eye. I don't think it is unrelated that Grace had his best game as a Spider last night. After the first half (which was disastourous for him) he operated inside (which is where 6-10 guys should operate) and low and behold, he had some moves, scored some points, got some fouls. Amazing what a little confidence will do and a perhaps a little freedom from coach to do it.

So, my answer is no, we are not better with Grant and Blake (those guys are great players), but we became better last night because the team just played hoops and individual players were able to show off their skills without worry of violating all of the rules of Mooney ball. I'd like to think Mooney learned something last night, but I know him, give him an entire offseason with these guys and he will beat the rules of his fluidity and passivity into them.
 
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I'm going to say we're definitely not better without them, but you make some good points.

I think a healthy Grant would have absolutely worked that small Toledo team on the offensive end.

Isaiah and Dji ... Blake's really good and a 23 year old compared to 18 or 19 year olds.

I do think Gilyard is much more effective without Blake, but I put that on Gilyard more than Blake. he chooses to defer. he plays more confidently and aggressively when he knows he has to be a main guy offensively.
 
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One thing I will say, Blake and Gilly are very fun to watch - I know some didn't like watching Blake due to shot selection. However, the Small Guard U thing has definitive issues. Blake and Gilly are very very good at finishing at the rim in fast break scenarios, using the rim on reverses or just beating the defense. Great finishers.

BUT, in half court, they really really struggle to get shots off in the paint or even mid range sometimes.

It worked with Kevin Anderson, he had elite floater and pull up game. Gilly never developed that. Gonzo and Brothers were good sized guards, so it wasn't a problem for them, and Gonzo was a beast posting up similar sized guards.

From what I see of Nelson, I am very hopeful that he will have similar ability as KA. Also think that Wilson is more physical and athletic going to the hoop than Gilly/Blake. So am hopeful for improvement.

Really, really hope Cayo comes back. We are stuck with Mooney, so come back for one more year Cayo.
 
I said it in the other thread, but that was the old Gilly last night, and it was fun to watch. It's probably true that our backcourt is going to score about the same amount whether it's Gilly and Blake or Gilly and someone else – Blake just takes the points that Gilly would have otherwise if he's in there – but I think the fluidity of the offense suffers sometimes with Blake in there because he's such a volume shooter. That works both ways – when he is hot, it's great. When not, we get killed on the boards and get no second-chance points. We actually had some second-chance points last night because our guys were able to play around the basket more, I think because we weren't just hacking up crazy shots quickly.
 
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spider23 said:
Really, really hope Cayo comes back. We are stuck with Mooney, so come back for one more year Cayo.
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I'd love Nathan to come back too. he's so tough offensively inside.

but if he came back I'd want someone to focus 100% on his defense all offseason. when something goes wrong defensively and I use the rewind button to try to figure out why, too often I see Nathan. he can be much better defensively. it's on coach to get it out of him. just my amateur opinion.
 
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We are absolutely much better with a healthy Blake and Grant. We got lucky as hell last night that all of a sudden Toledo couldn’t buy a bucket the last 4 minutes. Pure luck. We made some big shots during that period and won the game. Toledo was purely a one dimensional team and missed 20 3 point shots. If UR wins the NIT and finishes 69th in the nation, I may change my mind. Toledo was not a good team.
 
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I think most of us could agree that last night showed we should have been using our bench more all season. Dji and Wilson might be our two best perimeter defenders, and Sal is far and away our best defensive big (even though he fouls too often). Those guys play with some fire too. With as many times as we came out flat, we really could have used some of that fire earlier in the year
 
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SpiderK said:
We are absolutely much better with a healthy Blake and Grant. We got lucky as hell last night that all of a sudden Toledo couldn’t buy a bucket the last 4 minutes. Pure luck. We made some big shots during that period and won the game. Toledo was purely a one dimensional team and missed 20 3 point shots. If UR wins the NIT and finishes 69th in the nation, I may change my mind. Toledo was not a good team.
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True but sometimes you make your own luck. We collectively played hard last, challenged shots, did not give up near as many easy interior buckets, crashed the boards better.

Also, we were not an easy scout last night. We rolled out the same starting line-up and really rotation all year. We became super predictable and I think good coaches and teams like the predictability because it makes it easy for them to scheme around that.

Imagine is Sal had been given 20 minute per game mid season and all of a sudden you have this guy with long arms making plays and putbacks around the rim. But teams knew they were getting 25-30 minutes of Grant and the rest from Grace. They knew Grant wasn't going to play defense and Grace was not a complete non-factor on any type of interior offense. The mere fact that Grace and Sal started to make plays inside last night, I'm sure hit Toledo out of the blue and altered what they wanted to do on both ends of the court.
 
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spiderman said:
I'd love Nathan to come back too. he's so tough offensively inside.

but if he came back I'd want someone to focus 100% on his defense all offseason. when something goes wrong defensively and I use the rewind button to try to figure out why, too often I see Nathan. he can be much better defensively. it's on coach to get it out of him. just my amateur opinion.
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Agree, I think that is as much of an issue on defense than scheme or anything else. There doesn't seem to be much emphasis on accountability. If you throw a bad pass Mooney takes you out and gives you a talking to. If you get blown by or back doored, doesn't seem as much an issue. Again, I see coaches that are up and urging on the defense on every play, we don't seem to be as concerned. I will say that our defense in the second half did seem to come out with much more urgency, so maybe a little half time pep talk helped.
 
Spider2020 said:
I think most of us could agree that last night showed we should have been using our bench more all season.
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we played a small MAC team. Sal and Matt played well but Grant is a much better player. Dji and Isaiah were serviceable but no way do they take time from Blake.

Spider2020 said:
and Sal is far and away our best defensive big (even though he fouls too often).
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whoa, not to pour a bucket of cold water on the Sal praise ... I love what he did last night. but best big defender is a stretch and I know that's a low bar. he fouled out in 13 minutes. half of that time we were on offense. so he didn't even play that many defensive possessions and he fouled on most of them. fouls aren't good defense.
 
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spiderman said:
we played a small MAC team. Sal and Matt played well but Grant is a much better player. Dji and Isaiah were serviceable but no way do they take time from Blake.


whoa, not to pour a bucket of cold water on the Sal praise ... I love what he did last night. but best big defender is a stretch and I know that's a low bar. he fouled out in 13 minutes. half of that time we were on offense. so he didn't even play that many defensive possessions and he fouled on most of them. fouls aren't good defense.
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I guess we can agree to disagree. I would've liked to see more minutes from the freshmen, and yes, less from Blake. Especially in games where his shot wasn't falling. Blake kept us in some games by himself (the SLU game especially), but he also shoots you out of games when his shots aren't falling. When Blake isn't out there, Gilyard is more aggressive, and we don't chuck up contested mid-range jumpers with 20 seconds left on the shot clock.

As for Sal, maybe if he played more than 5 minutes a game the last three years, he would've learned how to defend without fouling. He has the physical tools to be a plus defender, and you can see the potential in spurts. I don't think he should've taken many minutes from Golden, but I would've liked to see him get 10-15 minutes per game, mainly at the expense of Grace.
 
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No. Absolutely not. I think the argument that could be made, but you will never know is - would we be better with Blake and Grant, but also playing a deeper bench - meaning Sal, Grace, Wilson, and Bailey seen more time throughout the year. Not saying we should have 9 guys playing 20 minutes each. But if you see a game where Francis is struggling - maybe Wilson and Bailey get extended time. If you see a game where Grant is struggling - maybe Sal and Grace get extended minutes. I think this year - our bench knew as long as starters were healthy - they were not gonna play. Last night - bench guys played a little loose and free, because they knew - Grant and Francis were not over their shoulders.

SO take the LaSalle game - Gilyard played 39 minutes. 5 points - 4 assists and 4 turnovers. Not his best game, and that will happen. Wilson played 4 minutes and no Bailey. You see Gilyard struggling, why not see what Wilson can do for 10 minutes or get Bailey in there and move Francis over to point for a while if needed. I don't think we had a great bench, but I also don't think the bench got the opportunity to show what they could do either.
 
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Spider2020 said:
I don't think he should've taken many minutes from Golden, but I would've liked to see him get 10-15 minutes per game, mainly at the expense of Grace.
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fair enough, but Matt and Sal have gotten about the same amount of time and done about the same with it.
 
Trap, I just don't know when you make that call that a guy isn't going to make the next shot. like Jacob missed his first three 3s yesterday. doesn't mean he's not hitting the next one. I watched a game a couple nights ago where a guy was 5-17 before hitting a big 3 late. I think you play your best players.
 
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Spider2020 said:
I think most of us could agree that last night showed we should have been using our bench more all season. Dji and Wilson might be our two best perimeter defenders, and Sal is far and away our best defensive big (even though he fouls too often). Those guys play with some fire too. With as many times as we came out flat, we really could have used some of that fire earlier in the year
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but but but 4700 pom-poms was always so quick to tell us how ridiculous it would be to take minutes away from the best class ever and give them to mere freshmen
 
spiderman said:
Trap, I just don't know when you make that call that a guy isn't going to make the next shot. like Jacob missed his first three 3s yesterday. doesn't mean he's not hitting the next one. I watched a game a couple nights ago where a guy was 5-17 before hitting a big 3 late. I think you play your best players.
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It is a tough call and not saying in a game like LaSalle - you play Gilyard 20 minutes instead of 39. But for a guy that game with a stat line for 39 minutes of 2-5 overall, 1-5 from 3 and 1 rebound, 4 assists with 4 turnovers and 3 steals - I question, would giving Wilson 5 more minutes and Gilyard down to 34 - maybe Wilson gets a spark going, or maybe Gilyard gets a rest to reset himself and get back on track. And I am not picking on Gilyard, I think he does need to play 35+ most nights. Just using as an example of not giving our bench a chance.
Look at WVU game - we were down 20 at halftime. Lose by 16 - and Grace only gets 3 minutes and Wilson got 2.

Francis is probably the biggest culprit because he is such a volume shooter. They showed a stat on him last night from the Kentucky game and in my head I was thinking - really, this is what you want to show? He had 18 points - but was 6-19 overall and 3-10 from 3. Not a great game in my mind. That Kentucky game was won more by Cayo, Burton, and Grant than Francis and Gilyard.
 
8legs1dream said:
but but but 4700 pom-poms was always so quick to tell us how ridiculous it would be to take minutes away from the best class ever and give them to mere freshmen
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Shockingly, he has slunk back into his hole when we imploded. Oh, the number of posts he made that said we were in great position to be an NCAA team all year long.

As I say to all the defend Mooney, you can defend him all you want, but eventually he is going to make you look like a fool.
 
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He didn’t slink back into his hole. He was relentlessly attacked and bullied by a half dozen people on the board because his opinions offended so many people.

It’s ironic that you think he is the one that looked like a fool through all of this. It couldn’t be more of the opposite
 
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plydogg said:
He didn’t slink back into his hole. He was relentlessly attacked and bullied by a half dozen people on the board because his opinions offended so many people.

It’s ironic that you think he is the one that looked like a fool through all of this. It couldn’t be more of the opposite
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nope, he was a fool. pretty much everything he said was totally wrong and he got called out on that and ran away as a result.
 
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plydogg said:
He didn’t slink back into his hole. He was relentlessly attacked and bullied by a half dozen people on the board because his opinions offended so many people.

It’s ironic that you think he is the one that looked like a fool through all of this. It couldn’t be more of the opposite
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Yes, cancel culture is a bad regardless of who is doing the cancelling.
 
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97spiderfan said:
Watching the game last night and the intensity of our young guys and role players, I think the question needs to be asked. As good as Grant is on offense for us, he is basically a statue on defense, told not to foul, so as to never get in foul trouble. So, yeah, Sal fouled out but you know what he was really aggressive on both ends of the floor. Sal should have been seeing more minutes all year, dude can play.

Blake is a terrific scorer for us but he simply does not play within the confines of what we want to do on offense. Wilson and Dji are raw players, both made mistakes last night, only scored 4 points. So, no they didn't replace what Blake does, but man Wilson is an active player, Dji in very limited minutes all year, is a very rangy guard, who is able to D up taller guards from other teams.

And probably most notable of all. Mooney was completely unrestricted last night in his substitution patterns, playing with different line-up combo's and this gave the guys freedom to just hoop it up, not under his overly prescriptive eye. I don't think it is unrelated that Grace had his best game as a Spider last night. After the first half (which was disastourous for him) he operated inside (which is where 6-10 guys should operate) and low and behold, he had some moves, scored some points, got some fouls. Amazing what a little confidence will do and a perhaps a little freedom from coach to do it.

So, my answer is no, we are not better with Grant and Blake (those guys are great players), but we became better last night because the team just played hoops and individual players were able to show off their skills without worry of violating all of the rules of Mooney ball. I'd like to think Mooney learned something last night, but I know him, give him an entire offseason with these guys and he will beat the rules of his fluidity and passivity into them.
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No
 
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plydogg said:
He didn’t slink back into his hole. He was relentlessly attacked and bullied by a half dozen people on the board because his opinions offended so many people.

It’s ironic that you think he is the one that looked like a fool through all of this. It couldn’t be more of the opposite
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He could be annoying at times, particularly his straw man arguments.

But I only attacked him a couple of times, both when his "opinion" was that "math isn't valid".

One was when he stated that losing to #48 away was equal to losing to #193 at home...

I assume you agree that isn't a valid equation?
 
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plydogg said:
He didn’t slink back into his hole. He was relentlessly attacked and bullied by a half dozen people on the board because his opinions offended so many people.

It’s ironic that you think he is the one that looked like a fool through all of this. It couldn’t be more of the opposite
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He was a troll, needlessly hijacking thread after thread.

You can consider me a fool, I really don't care. I've been right about things more than I've been wrong and am man enough to admit when I am wrong.

And he wasn't bullied, his takes and opinions were challenged. He took every rebuke or challenge personally and always had to argue with anytime someone challenged him. And of course, when the going got tough and his mantra of the team is great, Mooney is great, were going to the NCAA imploded upon us all, he tucked tail and disappeared.
 
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4700 is a fan who chooses to be very optimistic. he always supported the team and feels supporting the coaches is best for the program. I don't know why that angers people so much. it's fine to disagree but no reason to mock him for it.
 
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spiderman said:
4700 is a fan who chooses to be very optimistic. he always supported the team and feels supporting the coaches is best for the program. I don't know why that angers people so much. it's fine to disagree but no reason to mock him for it.
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because realistic fans know that Mooney is not going to get this basketball program where we want it to be. why are so many people content with mediocrity.
 
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8legs1dream said:
because realistic fans know that Mooney is not going to get this basketball program where we want it to be. why are so many people content with mediocrity.
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There will always be things that defy reason, logic, and statistics. We need to allow those who follow these beliefs to travel roads contrary to reality.
 
We have fans that are fine with the status quo and we have fans that want better. Which are you? I think the man has been given a fair chance to get it done.
it is my understanding that we actually pushed for our neighbors to the east to be in the A 10. Why would we do that if we didn’t think we could compete with them. 7-20
 
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All you need to know is that when UR left the CAA for the A10, we basically snubbed our noses at VCU thinking we were the better program for moving up in conference. In the CAA - we did fairly well against VCU and had success. A few years later - VCU moved to the A10 and since they moved, they have surpassed UR by leaps and bounds. But if you want to use the argument that VCU has lower academics and can admit and recruit kids we can't - so be it. I don't like that argument because that is self-imposed restrictions. Its like running a race with a 20 pound backpack - then if you lose, saying you lost because you have this 20 pound backpack. Who told you to wear it? No one but yourself.
But forget VCU - look at Davidson. A school on par with us academically. And they jumped from an even lower conference - Southern Conference - where they were very successful. Even they have been more successful in the A10 than we have. (2 NCAA and 3 NIT since they joined). So what's the excuse there?
 
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we seem to do well against Davidson. I can't for the life of me explain why the rest of the league loses so often to them.
 
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