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Secret Scrimmage vs ECU 90-90

a couple things:

10 of the 12 guys on preseason all A10 first and second teams are between 6'2" and 6'7" - the exceptions are Robbie Avila (6'10") and Posh Alexander (6'0"), and even the 6'2" dude is Reynolds from SJU who absolutely torched UR at Barclays late and is a tough matchup for any sized defender. So yeah, we do need some dudes to be defensive minded against bigger guards and wing spots. Especially considering our biggest guard of the 4 expected in the rotation is 6'0". I'm primarily concerned with our wings defending in space and getting beaten off the dribble leading to (as mentioned yesterday) recurrences of the flying dutchmen and mad scrambles on d.

I think the only way a very big lineup like against Iowa works - where Burton was at the 2 and Cayo the 3 - is if you have a PG like Gilyard who can handle all pressure by himself, never turn the ball over and play the entire game. I don't think anyone is a Gilyard level ball handler, game manager on this roster, so I think we will always have 2 traditional guards on the court. Whether that means a trickle down effect to only every having 1 traditional big (Walz/Beagle) play at a time remains to be seen, but I don't think we'll ever get any kind of jumbo team of say, a PG alongside Tanner/Dusan/Beagle/Walz.
 
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brooklyn brownstone said:
a couple things:

10 of the 12 guys on preseason all A10 first and second teams are between 6'2" and 6'7" - the exceptions are Robbie Avila (6'10") and Posh Alexander (6'0"), and even the 6'2" dude is Reynolds from SJU who absolutely torched UR at Barclays late and is a tough matchup for any sized defender. So yeah, we do need some dudes to be defensive minded against bigger guards and wing spots. Especially considering our biggest guard of the 4 expected in the rotation is 6'0". I'm primarily concerned with our wings defending in space and getting beaten off the dribble leading to (as mentioned yesterday) recurrences of the flying dutchmen and mad scrambles on d.

I think the only way a very big lineup like against Iowa works - where Burton was at the 2 and Cayo the 3 - is if you have a PG like Gilyard who can handle all pressure by himself, never turn the ball over and play the entire game. I don't think anyone is a Gilyard level ball handler, game manager on this roster, so I think we will always have 2 traditional guards on the court. Whether that means a trickle down effect to only every having 1 traditional big (Walz/Beagle) play at a time remains to be seen, but I don't think we'll ever get any kind of jumbo team of say, a PG alongside Tanner/Dusan/Beagle/Walz.
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Tyne is so quick that he could be the one to handle pressure but sometime his dribbling could not keep up with his foot speed. He reminds me of Kendall Anthony in quickness. Now if his shooting and ball handling catches up to Kendall, we
will be in grat shape
 
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spider23 said:
Cayo guarded big forward. Cayo only shot from 10 feet and in. Cayo dunked with one step. Cayo boarded. Cayo was a big 4. If it quacks like a duck :).
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yeah, not everyone fits into one position. many can play 2. but Cayo was about as traditional an old school 4 as you'll find these days.

most of our forwards like Dusan, AP, McGlothin and Robinson can play either forward spot depending on who's on the court with them.
guys like Tanner and Roche can play the 3 or the 2 ... though both seem destined to play the small forward spot with 2 guards on the floor with them who would help with ball handling.

Walz is clearly a 5. Beagle ... tbd if he'll play some forward. but he looks like primarily (or totally) a 5 here. We'll see if Mooney plays him much with Walz. Soulis I think will be a guy who can swing between 4 and 5 like Grace did, if he ever gets on the floor.
 
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32counter said:
richmondspiders.com

Jaylen Robinson - Men's Basketball - University of Richmond Athletics

Jaylen Robinson (24) Forward - HIGH SCHOOL • Graduated from DME Academy in Daytona Beach, Fla. • Played at Providence School through his junior year • Led Pr...
richmondspiders.com richmondspiders.com

From the 5thQ on Saturday,this kid is a real player.
Click to expand...
Good stuff, I know Sec9 was really high on his performance at the NIL intrasquad scrimmage. His HS highlights he looks explosive to the rim. Looking forward to Jaylen working his way into some game minutes.
 
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brooklyn brownstone said:
a couple things:

10 of the 12 guys on preseason all A10 first and second teams are between 6'2" and 6'7" - the exceptions are Robbie Avila (6'10") and Posh Alexander (6'0"), and even the 6'2" dude is Reynolds from SJU who absolutely torched UR at Barclays late and is a tough matchup for any sized defender.
Click to expand...

You beat me to this so thanks for doing the research and discovering that not only do these type of players exist in the A10 (🤯🤯🤯) but they are everywhere.
 
spider23 said:
I understand your position, and would love to see the tape of this scrimmage. Because we got a first hand report that they had a big guard that bullied us. And the 75% from 2 point range really really really indicates to me that we were getting blown by. Because as you have noted, teams don't shoot mid range any more. Even with Walz and Beagle solid down low, blow bys create a 2 v 1 against them. And I don't think Hunt and Tyne would give up blow bys. So somehow this mid/decent ECU team had dudes at the wing - it would seem.
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That's a lot of assuming. Are u saying they just had one guy consistent attack us and score at will because we didn't have a guy who could guard the 3? So, no one on our team could guard this one guy? Or, does ECU have some kind of amazing team where they hVe multiple wing guys who can light it up?
 
Boy, I don't know, struggling to come to any conclusions on how you give up 75% 2pt fg shooting. Somehow they scored a lot of buckets from 2. My assumptions would be drives or post ups to shoot that high of a percentage. And again, I don't see Hunt and Tyne giving up drives to the bucket.
Hoping it was not Walz and Beagle getting worked.

In any case, hoping it can be chalked up to some sort of cosmic wrinkle in time, and not just poor defense on perimeter and wing. But I usually go for the logical explanation, an based on the roster make up that would be poor D from our wings. And the anonymous first hand poster, stated that Tanner's defense was not good. So all does lead me to ASSumptions :)
 
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brooklyn brownstone said:
a couple things:

10 of the 12 guys on preseason all A10 first and second teams are between 6'2" and 6'7" - the exceptions are Robbie Avila (6'10") and Posh Alexander (6'0"), and even the 6'2" dude is Reynolds from SJU who absolutely torched UR at Barclays late and is a tough matchup for any sized defender. So yeah, we do need some dudes to be defensive minded against bigger guards and wing spots. Especially considering our biggest guard of the 4 expected in the rotation is 6'0". I'm primarily concerned with our wings defending in space and getting beaten off the dribble leading to (as mentioned yesterday) recurrences of the flying dutchmen and mad scrambles on d.

I think the only way a very big lineup like against Iowa works - where Burton was at the 2 and Cayo the 3 - is if you have a PG like Gilyard who can handle all pressure by himself, never turn the ball over and play the entire game. I don't think anyone is a Gilyard level ball handler, game manager on this roster, so I think we will always have 2 traditional guards on the court. Whether that means a trickle down effect to only every having 1 traditional big (Walz/Beagle) play at a time remains to be seen, but I don't think we'll ever get any kind of jumbo team of say, a PG alongside Tanner/Dusan/Beagle/Walz.
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There are only 2 guys out of 18 on the all A-10 teams who are 6'6 or 6'7. My point was we just don't have a lot of stud, tall "3s" in the A10.. Why are you going all the way to 6'2 when the discussion was who do we have to guard a 3? Most guards 6'5 and under play on the perimeter and can shoot the 3. This is where we want the quickness of our guards to come into play.
 
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VT4700 said:
There are only 2 guys out of 18 on the all A-10 teams who are 6'6 or 6'7. My point was we just don't have a lot of stud, tall "3s" in the A10.. Why are you going all the way to 6'2 when the discussion was who do we have to guard a 3? Most guards 6'5 and under play on the perimeter and can shoot the 3. This is where we want the quickness of our guards to come into play.
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but on the 1st and 2nd team preseason all conference teams, there are 5 guys who are 6'5".
if someone like GW3 can mark them and rebound with them ... awesome. I haven't seen him play yet. it would be unusual.
and if someone like Buchanan or Santos is playing the 3, there's no way imo we can handle a guy that size with a guard.
 
spider23 said:
Boy, I don't know, struggling to come to any conclusions on how you give up 75% 2pt fg shooting. Somehow they scored a lot of buckets from 2. My assumptions would be drives or post ups to shoot that high of a percentage. And again, I don't see Hunt and Tyne giving up drives to the bucket.
Hoping it was not Walz and Beagle getting worked.

In any case, hoping it can be chalked up to some sort of cosmic wrinkle in time, and not just poor defense on perimeter and wing. But I usually go for the logical explanation, an based on the roster make up that would be poor D from our wings. And the anonymous first hand poster, stated that Tanner's defense was not good. So all does lead me to ASSumptions :)
Click to expand...
You give up 90 points, sure, assume the defense was bad. I'm thinking everyone probably could have done better, especially if a team shoots 75% from 2 against you. Like when we lost 107-105 to GW a few years ago...everyone could have done better. Although SDad gave us the "no one scored on Dji" nonsense. LOL. You give up 107, or even 90 like the other night, it's safe to say everyone got scored on or had some bad plays defensively. Seems like you want to say we gave up 90 because we couldn't guard the 3. That's where we disagree. Do we even know who ECU played at the 3? If some guards in the A10 light us up, why is it our 3 guy's fault? Why not try multiple bodies on him? As I said earlier, unless he is this 6'6 or 6'7 athletic stud, any of our guards should be able to guard him at times. Maybe you are right and will be proven right, but hard for me to agree until I see us play. I am just not gonna read that we gave up 90 and then start blaming our wing guys.
 
spiderman said:
but on the 1st and 2nd team preseason all conference teams, there are 5 guys who are 6'5".
if someone like GW3 can mark them and rebound with them ... awesome. I haven't seen him play yet. it would be unusual.
and if someone like Buchanan or Santos is playing the 3, there's no way imo we can handle a guy that size with a guard.
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There are a lot of things you can do defensively. You can put multiple guys on these guys, double them, prevent them from even getting the ball at times, and more. These guys rarely post their man up anymore. If they drive the ball, stay in front of them. Just make it as tough as possible for them. Some guys will still score because they are really good. Reynolds scored on everyone last year. But, until I see our wing guys being exposed, I will feel like that is the best spot to be less solid defensively.
 
in general, doubling or over-helping leads to openings. a really good defensive team won't resort to that kind of help on one player. and I don't think we ever did last year.

but yes, great scorers will score. just have to limit their efficiency.

we don't know how the ECU scrimmage went, but what 23 is saying is that we know from the past that both Hunt and Tyne are strong perimeter defenders. that's really all we know. Walz and Beagle "should" be solid inside. so to give up 90 points and 75% from 2 ... we're just tryng to connect the dots as to what went wrong.
 
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spiderman said:
in general, doubling or over-helping leads to openings. a really good defensive team won't resort to that kind of help on one player. and I don't think we ever did last year.

but yes, great scorers will score. just have to limit their efficiency.

we don't know how the ECU scrimmage went, but what 23 is saying is that we know from the past that both Hunt and Tyne are strong perimeter defenders. that's really all we know. Walz and Beagle "should" be solid inside. so to give up 90 points and 75% from 2 ... we're just tryng to connect the dots as to what went wrong.
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I'm saying an occasional double. Just mix it up if it is one guy going off against us. And, I can't start throwing guys under the bus for a lack of defense when I didn't see the game.
 
Lot of reference to 3s that no longer exist! But it was never 6'6 or 6'7 guys. It was big guards or wings. 8 dudes on 1st & 2nd team are 6'4 to 6'7, tho just 1 6'4. The thought that a guy 6'6 is tough to guard but someone one inch shorter at 6'5 is not nobody buys. Yes, we'll throw some shorter guys at the 6'4 or 6'5 big guards we'll probably have to with our roster. U can be a great defender at ~5'10 & try to disrupt, but when u r giving up 6 inches & more w wingspan it's still difficult.

We have been trying to identify the player on our team who would guard a go to scorer, so many of whom are 6'4-6'7'. This was before the ECU scrimmage. The reports on the scrimmage only seem to confirm that previously identified worry. We likely have to be more efficient offensively to overcome. But yes we will all see with own eyes how we handle in the future and how big of a problem or not it actually is.
 
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I believe that a scouting report doing the season will pay off, I doubt if we had scouted them prior to the scrimmage.
 
GKiller said:
We have been trying to identify the player on our team who would guard a go to scorer, so many of whom are 6'4-6'7'. This was before the ECU scrimmage. The reports on the scrimmage only seem to confirm that previously identified worry. We likely have to be more efficient offensively to overcome. But yes we will all see with own eyes how we handle in the future and how big of a problem or not it actually is.
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That's all I'm saying. Had a fear going in, dudeness confirmed suspect defense from one wing defender, this is a message board. Easy to connect the dots. Will say this was probably Tanner's first real extended PT in a game like situation in a while, so by no means saying his story is written. But yes, seems that D was a problem scrimmage 1. And yes to 4700's point, very well could have been the whole team including a player at LSU that contributed by being at LSU :):):)
After carefully reviewing our comments, fully expecting Mooney and Boyden to right the ship in scrimmage 2 and hold ODU to 37% shooting overall.
 
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brooklyn brownstone said:
I think the guy who did damage for ECU (Felton) was described as being a bigger guard, 6’2” / 215 lbs IIRC.
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6’3” Felton 6 of 9
6’4” Riley 5 of 7 from Temple
CJ Walker 10 of 12 (not sure which one)

Just not sure of the heights since I think 2 are transfers…
 
urmite said:
6’3” Felton 6 of 9
6’4” Riley 5 of 7 from Temple
CJ Walker 10 of 12 (not sure which one)

Just not sure of the heights since I think 2 are transfers…
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing. Walker is listed at 6'8. As I said earlier, when u give up 90, team defense, and not just one individual or position, is usually the issue. Maybe we worked on some different stuff that is far from perfected. I'm not ready to get too concerned until I actually see us and we play some real games. I doubt anyone comes close to 75% from 2 against us in a real game.
 
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So, the reason we were good defensively last year is because Bigelow, Harris, Dji were interchangeable and so picks and screens really didn't have much effect on us. They could all switch onto a guard or wing, and in emergency onto a big, and stay in front of them on the perimeter and not get bullied anywhere, and they were also experienced and aware of how and when to pick up the roller, or rotate to the roller from an off-ball position, etc.. While they might start a possession guarding a "wing", after picks and screens they were often guarding someone else. I have a lot of concern that we will lose that ability this year. Tyne and Hunt are gonna get screened basically immediately, and unless we play a defense where we basically don't switch at all and require them to fight through screens, we'll need our other guys to be able to adequately guard a ball-handler on the perimeter. Boyden can help scheme around it a little w/ drilling on rotations, but ultimately, guys are gonna have to stay in front of people after getting switched. Dji, Harris, and Bigs were great. It remains to be seen if Dusan, Glou, Tanner, and crew can do it. But I have doubts.
 
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Good analysis Kneepad. My analysis is much more obtuse, but you laid out my concerns here in more detail. Having 2 of 3 of Dji, Harris and Bigs on the court provided a lot of versatility and switchability. Of the three current players you mentioned, I am most hopeful that Glou can be that guy, but have no idea if he has the footspeed to do so. Hopeful he does.
Robinson anyone? Again, expecting him to be a bit raw on offense, but thinking if he can be a plus defender, he will get hoops by attacking the rim. Like Section9, I am hopeful he can force his way into the rotation.
I do think as Brooklyn has pointed out on a few occasions, we may very well be able to make up what we lose a bit by being even better on offense. But I am a defense first guy, and loved how last year's team could set the tone and no easy baskets from the jump. I am fearful the "let's outscore them" mentality can prevail otherwise. Would love to hear Boyden's take on the D for the scrimmage.
 
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totally agree with pad & 23.

recruiting-wise, we typically cast a wide net and take the best players we can land. then we develop them. we usually focus on skills. but rarely do we get a group of plus defenders. somehow we ended up with a cluster of them in last year's graduating class. not sure it was by design but it worked. Dji, Bigs and Harris were long and athletic. Robinson seems to be in the same mold. maybe McGlothin too, though I think offense is his calling card.

urfan ... after that 1st look at Robinson's highlights when we landed him, nothing he does will be a surprise to me. that guy looked like an SEC level athlete. I'm with 23 hoping he forces his way into the rotation early. ton of upside there. it's tough earning time as a freshman in the portal days, though, when teams keep bringing in talented upperclass transfers.
 
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yeah, he jumped over a guy in a dunk. Crazily athletic. If skills-wise he can ramp up, we may see him this year force his way into a mix.
 
VT4700 said:
Thanks for sharing. Walker is listed at 6'8. As I said earlier, when u give up 90, team defense, and not just one individual or position, is usually the issue. Maybe we worked on some different stuff that is far from perfected. I'm not ready to get too concerned until I actually see us and we play some real games. I doubt anyone comes close to 75% from 2 against us in a real game.
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Thanks, I think there are 3 CJ Walkers. This seems the Oregon/UCF one.
One seemed to graduate from Ohio St, but not drafted in the NBA.

Not worried from 1 scrimmage, just something to keep an eye on.
If ODU and Mount Olive do the same then it is a serious concern.
 
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spiderman said:
not sure what the CJ Walker confusion is about. the only one we're talking about is the one on the ECU roster.
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The only confusion was when we first started discussing the scrimmage. He wasn’t on either Torvik or KenPom ECU rosters. So I Google searched, it listed multiples and none were listed as transferring to ECU.

I was doing too many things at the time to take the path of least resistance ;)

C.J. Walker - Men's Basketball - East Carolina University Athletics

C.J. Walker (14) Forward - 2023-24 (at UCF): Played in 19 games, starting in 15 to average 7.8 points per game and pull in 4.7 rebounds per contest … Shot 39.8%
ecupirates.com ecupirates.com

This all started because I was checking if all 3 scorers were big guards…

{Yes, autocorrect resistance is a word and doesn’t need to be changed to distance}
 
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my only question is whether ECU plays him at the 3 or the 4. if the 4 we probably started Dusan on him? if the 3 then Tanner.
 
spider23 said:
Boy, I don't know, struggling to come to any conclusions on how you give up 75% 2pt fg shooting. Somehow they scored a lot of buckets from 2. My assumptions would be drives or post ups to shoot that high of a percentage. And again, I don't see Hunt and Tyne giving up drives to the bucket.
Hoping it was not Walz and Beagle getting worked.

In any case, hoping it can be chalked up to some sort of cosmic wrinkle in time, and not just poor defense on perimeter and wing. But I usually go for the logical explanation, an based on the roster make up that would be poor D from our wings. And the anonymous first hand poster, stated that Tanner's defense was not good. So all does lead me to ASSumptions :)
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, It seems the 1st hand reports - as well as the empirical evidence, and my assumptions, from this secret scrimmage have played out in the regular season on the defensive side of the ball.
If the offense could have converted a little it would have been a much more exciting team to watch so far.
 
And - in addition to the tape on JRob - we had a first hand report from this scrimmage - and the NIL scrimmage as to how good he looked. Classic case of Mooney not adjusting. Really could have been a guy that brought energy and maybe a spark, and maybe carried over to other guys. Every bit helps.
 
spider23 said:
Unfortunately, It seems the 1st hand reports - as well as the empirical evidence, and my assumptions, from this secret scrimmage have played out in the regular season on the defensive side of the ball.
If the offense could have converted a little it would have been a much more exciting team to watch so far.
Click to expand...
If we had 6 guys shooting 50% from three, as expected, the defense would be less of an issue…
 
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