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3 Pt shooting

GKiller

GKiller

Spider's Club
Jun 3, 2003
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These are our 3 pt shooting percentage ranks the last 5+ years. Our best year we weren't even a good 3 pt shooting team just above average. Rest of the time...bad.

265 current 18-19'
250
208
129
185
270

We haven't had a good 3 point shooting team in quite a while. Yet for some reason Mooney has a rep of recruiting shooters but that's really a fallacy. I think it's because our style of play and recruiting net would have someone assume Richmond must be a dangerous 3 pt shooting team but those who closely follow the team like this board know we're not, and haven't been.

When you think about that 4/30 shooting display the other night it isn't so surprising. Playing with lack of confidence probably has lot to do with it too.
 
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When you evaluate Mooney and look at his recent teams, there is not really an identity. Early on it is the match up defense. That was figured out and he has nothing else. It's amazing for all the talk of recruiting shooters, we rarely have more than two on the court at a time. I do think that Gilyard's bad game is probably a result of injury and over use. I know folks point to KA's high minute rate, but he was a much different build than Gilyard. Moonbeam is just not in a position to take him out of the game.
 
spider23 said:
When you evaluate Mooney and look at his recent teams, there is not really an identity. Early on it is the match up defense. That was figured out and he has nothing else. It's amazing for all the talk of recruiting shooters, we rarely have more than two on the court at a time. I do think that Gilyard's bad game is probably a result of injury and over use. I know folks point to KA's high minute rate, but he was a much different build than Gilyard. Moonbeam is just not in a position to take him out of the game.
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Shooting starts in the legs, your legs go your shot don't fall.

Not in a positions to take him out of the game...... belies the problem; Mooney trying to win enough games to save his skin what the players need it playing time to improve.
 
gospidersgo said:
Mooney has a rep of recruiting shooters?
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Well it's certainly not rebounders. I think that impression is out there. I didn't say it was accurate. It's not and the stats bear that out. Think the impression comes from style of play, we're not going to overpower anyone with strength typically. & Mooney has regularly talked about looking to recruit good shooters at each position, positionless basketball. Seems all our PR releases on commits talk up their shooting. But hasn't translated. I wanted to take a look at the stats myself because my feeling was we haven't been good at shooting the ball in quite some time and that shouldn't happen. Too important in today's game.
 
GKiller said:
These are our 3 pt shooting percentage ranks the last 5+ years. Our best year we weren't even a good 3 pt shooting team just above average. Rest of the time...bad.

265 current 18-19'
250
208
129
185
270

We haven't had a good 3 point shooting team in quite a while. Yet for some reason Mooney has a rep of recruiting shooters but that's really a fallacy. I think it's because our style of play and recruiting net would have someone assume Richmond must be a dangerous 3 pt shooting team but those who closely follow the team like this board know we're not, and haven't been.

When you think about that 4/30 shooting display the other night it isn't so surprising. Playing with lack of confidence probably has lot to do with it too.
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Thanks GKiller. Our offensive philosophy involves good ball movement to find an open shot and having 5 guys on the court that can than hit that shot. And Mooney's response when we don't shoot well is that we need to start hitting shots. Except the players he recruits really aren't all that great at hitting shots. The cycle continues to repeat itself.

Mainly, I think most good college basketball teams just have better players than us. Outside of Grant and Gilly, losing anyone else on the roster wouldn't bother me on that much. Figure, a new coach will find a better replacement.
 
97spiderfan said:
Thanks GKiller. Our offensive philosophy involves good ball movement to find an open shot and having 5 guys on the court that can than hit that shot. And Mooney's response when we don't shoot well is that we need to start hitting shots. Except the players he recruits really aren't all that great at hitting shots. The cycle continues to repeat itself.

Mainly, I think most good college basketball teams just have better players than us. Outside of Grant and Gilly, losing anyone else on the roster wouldn't bother me on that much. Figure, a new coach will find a better replacement.
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Again, I think our offense works rather well to get people open shots. Prior to last game, we were what, top 3 in the country in 2-point %, and respectable (35%) in 3-point percentage? I think the criticism on shooting and offense because of this last game is a gross overreaction to one game. I knew that we would not shoot well after 10 days off, and posted that before the game on the ORU Predictions thread, and it came true. So I think this thread is misallocating what went wrong.

By contrast, I do agree with the criticism on not substituting, or finding time to rest Gilyard or Golden, and the effect that has on our end-of-game effectiveness on both ends of the court.

And any criticism on defense and rebounding is almost always on point.
 
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kneepadmckinney said:
I knew that we would not shoot well after 10 days off, and posted that before the game on the ORU Predictions thread, and it came true. So I think this thread is misallocating what went wrong.
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Well first off, please draft a quick memo going forward to alert the coaching staff to these scenarios, they don’t seem to be forecasting these cases themselves.

Second, I think it’s the obligation of the staff to come up with a different game plan once they determine the three point strategy wasn’t working. Seems like you have to coach your way out of something like that.
 
kneepadmckinney said:
Again, I think our offense works rather well to get people open shots. Prior to last game, we were what, top 3 in the country in 2-point %, and respectable (35%) in 3-point percentage? I think the criticism on shooting and offense because of this last game is a gross overreaction to one game. I knew that we would not shoot well after 10 days off, and posted that before the game on the ORU Predictions thread, and it came true. So I think this thread is misallocating what went wrong.[/QUOT
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Kneepadmckinney u probably have my favorite username on board. Everyone has good story about Boss.

Anyway yes we have good 2pt shooting this thread was specifically about 3 point shooting per thread title & content. 3 pt shooting is not good.

Gross overreaction of 1 game? There is 5 and half seasons of data. Granted the 4/30 got me thinking about the subject. And a 4/30 night hurts the stats sure but take it away & its 34% not 35%. 34% is just below average we’d be in the 170s still. Respectable is a stretch. Every game counts too. But the whole point was not too look at 1 game on micro level but our trends at macro level. We are and have been a very bad to mediocre at best 3 point shooting team for long time now. Don’t think we’ve even had 1 lights out shooter in a while. Sherod was closest.
 
GK I believe you are spot on. Some may recall I did a more complete analysis for about a three year period (I think it was 11 through 14) during a time we were discussing our rebounds. I took into account a comparison of rebounds, shooting, TO's and steals. There were very clear breaking points that would indicate winners and losers of each game without knowing the score. Prediction rate was about 95%, but I was beaten down pretty hard over my rebound conclusion. I don't want to do that exercise again.
 
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urfan1 said:
GK I believe you are spot on. Some may recall I did a more complete analysis for about a three year period (I think it was 11 through 14) during a time we were discussing our rebounds. I took into account a comparison of rebounds, shooting, TO's and steals. There were very clear breaking points that would indicate winners and losers of each game without knowing the score. Prediction rate was about 95%, but I was beaten down pretty hard over my rebound conclusion. I don't want to do that exercise again.
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So, if you are a lousy 3 point shooting team or a lousy rebounding team, statistically you are going to have a really difficult time winning. I suppose if you are both of these things, that winning really becomes difficult.

Fortunately, coach just offered up a solution to our woes. We need to shoot better in games and I think we are going to be doing some extra rebounding work this week in practice. That should fix everything up.
 
Fair enough. But then
ChoppinBroccoli said:
I think we all assumed you were just making an Oral joke.
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If I were making an Oral joke, I would have said that after 10 days off, we'll probably shoot too early in the shot clock against the pressure of Oral. It came to fruition.

If I had to put money on a number, I think this team will end up at about 36-37% shooting from three by the end of the year.
 
7/22 vs odu. Not bad basically hit our below average historical performance.
 
kneepadmckinney said:
Fair enough. But then

If I were making an Oral joke, I would have said that after 10 days off, we'll probably shoot too early in the shot clock against the pressure of Oral. It came to fruition.

If I had to put money on a number, I think this team will end up at about 36-37% shooting from three by the end of the year.
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I don't see how we end up at even 35% from 3 this year. We are only at 33% right now and have played more than half the season. We would need to shoot about 38% the rest of the way from 3 just to get to 35%, and over 40% the rest of the way just to get to the 36 - 37 figure. Not happening with this team.
 
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GKiller said:
7/22 vs odu. Not bad basically hit our below average historical performance.
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7-22 is barely inside the top 300 percentage wise. Teams are shooting more threes every year, and making more every year. Well, most teams. We have not caught on yet.
 
VT4700 said:
7-22 is barely inside the top 300 percentage wise. Teams are shooting more threes every year, and making more every year. Well, most teams. We have not caught on yet.
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True. PS you did not understand that post. Must. Use. Emojis. Next time I'll be better.
 
GKiller said:
True. PS you did not understand that post. Must. Use. Emojis. Next time I'll be better.
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Cool. I thought the above posts were from this morning. My mistake. I guess I am just frustrated with our 3 point shooting, and did not read your post well enough.
 
VT4700 said:
Cool. My mistake. I guess I am just frustrated with our 3 point shooting, and did not read your post well enough.
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Forget the 3PT frustration, are you finally frustrated enough with Mooney to say time for a new coach by year's end?

Plus let's not blame this loss on 3PT shooting woes. Martelli made haltime adjustment to zone and Mooney as usual couldn't make the counter move.
 
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One more symptom of the overall lack of talent in our program. We have recruited undersized, slow, unathletic players and really the only thing that can save your behind if you have a roster full of those guys is that you can bomb from 3 really well. But we suck at that too.

We are the least talented team in the A-10, bar none. St. Joes was pretty bad themselves last night, except they were missing two starters and a top reserve last night. We MAY have more talent than Fordham, only because I have yet to see them play, but that is it.
 
SouthJerseySpiderFan said:
Forget the 3PT frustration, are you finally frustrated enough with Mooney to say time for a new coach by year's end?

Plus let's not blame this loss on 3PT shooting woes. Martelli made haltime adjustment to zone and Mooney as usual couldn't make the counter move.
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I am very frustrated, but willing to see how the season ends before taking a complete turn on my pre season thoughts. It is looking more and more doubtful, but optimistic me is still hoping for some magic with this team somewhere. But, right now, I am probably closer to agreeing with you guys that disagreeing.
 
97spiderfan said:
One more symptom of the overall lack of talent in our program. We have recruited undersized, slow, unathletic players and really the only thing that can save your behind if you have a roster full of those guys is that you can bomb from 3 really well. But we suck at that too.

We are the least talented team in the A-10, bar none. St. Joes was pretty bad themselves last night, except they were missing two starters and a top reserve last night. We MAY have more talent than Fordham, only because I have yet to see them play, but that is it.
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Disagree. We have talent. Gilyard, grant and Cayo are talented enough to start for every team in the A-10.

Woj and Dre have talent but are young. They, like most freshman in the A-10, should be coming off the bench and grow into starting roles in the coming years.

From what I’ve seen of Sal, I think he’s talented as well, just hasn’t earned the trust of the coaching staff to play more? Maybe he gets lost on offense/defense? Regardless, I think the talent is there.

Also, Nick pre-injury has plenty of talent.

Moral of the story is that we have the talent, we’re just not using it well. I’ll admit we’re not leading the league in talent, but we’re not at the bottom either.
 
nathanw19 said:
Disagree. We have talent. Gilyard, grant and Cayo are talented enough to start for every team in the A-10.

Woj and Dre have talent but are young. They, like most freshman in the A-10, should be coming off the bench and grow into starting roles in the coming years.

From what I’ve seen of Sal, I think he’s talented as well, just hasn’t earned the trust of the coaching staff to play more? Maybe he gets lost on offense/defense? Regardless, I think the talent is there.

Also, Nick pre-injury has plenty of talent.

Moral of the story is that we have the talent, we’re just not using it well. I’ll admit we’re not leading the league in talent, but we’re not at the bottom either.
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No, we are at the bottom. That is why we were picked at the bottom preseason and why we are at the bottom right now. It is not because of Mooney's coaching acumen, but because of our talent. That is how these ranking go and literally everyone outside our program looked at our talent and said "basement A-10 team". Go back and look at what Dayton fans said about our team after their game.

We have 3 A-10 level players, that is it. Woj and Dre wouldn't ever be recruited at a program like Dayton, SLU, VCU, shoot even Duquesne at this point. And in no program (save maybe Fordham), would they be anywhere close to a starting role. Who else recruited Woj and Andre, basically no one. Same for Grace.

Sal may have some talent but what does it say about him that he can't even get 1 minute of playing time in this line-up we roll out.

And then you have Yates, JJ, and Verbinskis. Those guys are slow and don't have one A-10 level skill.

Mooney is not a great coach but it takes a combination of bad coaching and lack of talent to lose to bad teams like Wyoming, Longwood, Hampton, Oral Roberts and then get blown out by teams that are just decent like Davidson and Dayton.

Losing to a bad A-10 team like St. Joes who is down to 7 scholarship players. We got them missing 2 starters and a top reserve off a team that when they had those players was getting blown out in conference games and we got beat.

We need to stop deluding ourselves that we are talented. We are not.
 
kneepadmckinney said:
I think you are off on Woj and Goose, just like you were off on Cayo, and you will eventually have to admit it.

I don't think you are off on Yates, JJ, or Verbinskis.
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Fair enough. Time will tell. I was way off on Cayo and admit that. But I think I've been fairly on really early on players like Schneider, Tomas, AJ Ford, Diekvoss, Smithen, Kovien and the parade of lightly recruited players that Mooney has brought in.

When you sign guys that literally have only 1-2 other D-1 offers, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine the reason for that. Woj and Goose fit that profile as well. They have shown me very little to doubt why other D-1 programs had no interest in them either.
 
gospidersgo said:
For what it's worth I think we are more talented than GW.
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Agreed, I didn't see the GW game but I was going to throw them in with us and Fordham for least talented rosters in the league.

Except for Coppin State this year, there really hasn't been one game where I would say we had more talent than the other team we played this year. And we have played a whole lot of crappy teams this year.
 
Don't want to open new thread about getting on Jake so will do it here. Mooney gets just as much blame, probably/definitely more. Noticed it watching game and now will give details now looking at play-by-play.

GG having his way and at 4:27 scores layup to put UR up 37-23.
1) Spiders get ball at 3:54 and coming out of break Jake misses 3PT at 3:40 mark.
2) Spiders get ball at 3:34 mark and Jake misses 3PT at 3:17.
3) Spiders get ball at 1:13 mark and Jake misses 3PT at :57.

There's a reason you have a 30 second shot clock and good coaches take advantage of it. Yes Jake made 3PT at 5:23 mark but he's allowed to fire away at any time? We know how a few other young players see the pine for a small blunder. And not saying a Jake blunder but has to think better than that. And Mooney MUST let him know!

GG after making that basket at 4:27 got off only 1 more shot and made the basket and foul shot at :08 to put the Spiders up 43-31 at HT. Yes, GG was out a bit for the last 4 minutes but was on the court for all 3 Jake misses. I know Jake being who he is will learn from it, but unfortunately I'm afraid Mooney never will. His peak time at good coaching at the A10 level seems so far gone. :(
 
we need a knock down shooter at the 2, and I want a knock down shooter to take the open shot if there rather than burn clock and have to force a shot as it expires. Woj is getting every opportunity. if he doesn't grab it, then I hope Francis will. plus we'll have Nick.
 
Mooney has no bench. He could pull Jake for that but then we are putting in JJ, who brings about the same skill set (undersized, slow shooting guard, who can't shoot all that well), except he is a senior to the table as Woj.

I still for the life of me can't figure out why Sal is not getting anytime.
 
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97, a lot of people are wondering. Maybe Sal saw something so stupid in practice and snapped at Mooney. This broke Mooney's one rule: Don't be a jerk. Causing said loss of minutes.

Just a theory, but won't put anything by moonbeam at this time.
 
I am concerned that most of why these guys are struggling is that losing is in their head and the
pressure is mounting. When we start having teams make runs on us, we start tensing up, taking quick or
bad shots, missing easy ones. You see the frustration in their faces, this is a team that needs something good happen
now. They could finish January with just one win and looks very likely.
 
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spiderman said:
we need a knock down shooter at the 2, and I want a knock down shooter to take the open shot if there rather than burn clock and have to force a shot as it expires. Woj is getting every opportunity. if he doesn't grab it, then I hope Francis will. plus we'll have Nick.
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There you go with the IFs again. Everything you're suggesting is negative will happen if Jake doesn't take those shots. Only negative for sure was him missing those shots.

I think you're missing the point ..... not saying Jake has to come out ..... just saying work the ball around more. Or better yet, have Mooney call a set play. Wait that can't happen with Mooney.
 
Sal not playing over Julius is crazy. I appreciate JJ’s contribution to the program, but at this point he doesn’t need to be on the floor. I’ll say it again, nothing personal against JJ, but Sal can give you at least what Julius does in terms of production, but he has a much higher ceiling. Play the kid! What do we have to lose?
 
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SouthJerseySpiderFan said:
There you go with the IFs again. Everything you're suggesting is negative will happen if Jake doesn't take those shots. Only negative for sure was him missing those shots.

I think you're missing the point ..... not saying Jake has to come out ..... just saying work the ball around more. Or better yet, have Mooney call a set play. Wait that can't happen with Mooney.
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the one I'm thinking of looked like a set play, where Jake came through the lane off a screen to the corner to get the pass and take an open shot.
 
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