2024 Offseason Grade - A minus

[brooklyn brownstone]

FWIW, I love our offseason, very high on it and don’t understand any downplaying of goals for next year.

Last year my inseason grades had to be in 3 parts.

OOC - C minus. (BC, UNI and WSU)
A10 season - A. (Would have been A+ except for GMU debacle)
Postseason - F (no sugarcoating it. We lost multiple good leads and won zero games as the 1 seed in A10 tourney. Would have been an F on its own but the VT blowout in the NIT sealed the grade.)

I want OOC to improve first and foremost. Worry about the rest later.

 

[spiderman]

FWIW, I love our offseason, very high on it and don’t understand any downplaying of goals for next year.

nobody's downplaying goals.

don't mistake expectations for goals. when I talk of expectations, I'm talking about an unbiased look at our talent vs that of the rest of the league. like what bustingbrackets.com did. analyze the league and rank the teams. they have us 8th. can we be better than 8th? of course. but for me to say I "expect" to win the league, that would mean I feel we have the most talent in the league. without bias, I don't think anyone here can say that. but I'm hopeful.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

I guess maybe where I differ is that I do have expectations that Moon needs to be / is bringing in a top 3 set of players each year. Not 8th (or anywhere near it) and this that we should be near top of A10 every year.

All structures are in place. There is no instability to scare a player off and a record of recent team and individual success.

If not now bringing in consistent top 3 classes - yes lined up against anyone in A10 - then when?

 

[spiderstudent17]

wrong hire can set u back, but less likely at UR - 75% of prevous 4 coaches did better

Mooney results r better recently but Covid gave him extra year with same vet group, there is some duplication there imo. without Covid there is no 2022.

firing & hiring is #1 way to show urgency by far

I don't agree w many self imposed obstacles - academic is really only and there r examples of that. I hoep its chnaged. However we've otherwise had more resources than most of our peer schools. VCU has pull out bleachers their gym is garbage.

UR gave Mooney an extension before the more recent results, yet after he was still on 10 year deal. I think results as long as mediocre and u r not an AHole is what matters. Now he gets another with 3 years already left, its insane but I called it.

let me ask u - should a 20 year coach at 1 place have increased expecations and standards?

Agree with what you’re saying here. I am not a fan of giving any coach more than a 4-5 year contract length at a time. Expectations of NCAAs/A10 championships should be the same year 20 as year 1. Not to rehash my earlier points on this, but will reiterate that there is more nuance that I’m sure the admin looks at to determine whether a season was “successful” than just NCAA appearance or not. You can have goals, but failing to meet them isn’t always a “failure”.

I also believe UR should remove as many self-imposed obstacles as possible first as it would be hard for any coach to do well with more restrictions. UR appears to have gone that route first (I don’t know for a fact only what others have said here) and we can’t deny that our results have been much better recent years. Yes, COVID bonus year is a reason why we were in a position to win A10 tournament in 2022, but every team was operating under the same rules. Also kudos to Mooney and our culture that Gilly, Golden, and everyone stayed when they could’ve easily gone to any school in the country for their last year.

I do believe that UR likes the fact that Mooney is a is a nice guy who represents the university well and runs a clean program. They may be putting more weight into that than they should. I will say that is of course important, but I would also say that being a nice guy who runs a clean program and represents the program well should be the expectation and bare minimum for any coach. Failing to meet that should be reasons to fire, meeting those expectations aren’t reasons themselves to extend.

 

[spiderman]

I guess maybe where I differ is that I do have expectations that Moon needs to be / is bringing in a top 3 set of players each year. Not 8th (or anywhere near it) and this that we should be near top of A10 every year.

All structures are in place. There is no instability to scare a player off and a record of recent team and individual success.

If not now bringing in consistent top 3 classes - yes lined up against anyone in A10 - then when?

it seems like you're talking more theoretically that "we should make the tournament because we have a nice arena, a practice facility, and we think a solid NIL program so we should have top 3 talent".

I'm more focused on current reality ... will we make the tournament next year based on the players we have and the players the rest of the league has?

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

So am I.

You left the giant, hulking aspect of the program out of your equation. We have all that and a coach with a lifetime deal. After 3 ncaas, 2 of which were when the current freshmen had not yet entered kindergarten.

So yes, for that kind of security, with these resources I want NCAAs. I don’t want leafy excuses.

If the guys we just brought in are not making up a top 3 team with our returnees - after all the giant success 5 year success I’ve heard about and seen stats for here - when will we ever get that talent? Some mythical year in the future.

20 years on, time is now. We’ve got a winning program, guys are winning individual awards. I reset my expectations that the winning will continue. Now I want NCAAs regularly.

As a fan, my opinion is that is the goal and the expectation. You want to measure yours, fine. But I don’t buy that. Otherwise wtf are we even doing?

Stay leafy.

 

[Eight Legger]

I don’t really understand continuing to immediately give extensions after one good year when we had 10 years without a conference title of any type or an NCAA bid. In my mind, the recent success has started to make up for those down years, and I am in favor of keeping Money at this point, but I m not sure why we need to reward him twice in three years for doing what he should have been doing all along.

And from a business standpoint, it’s sort of pointless. No one else is trying to hire him, and he’s made it clear he doesn’t ever want to go anywhere else. We’re bidding against ourselves.

 

[VT4700]

How do you know no one would hire him? I'm pretty sure ADs looking to hire a coach would look more at the last 5 years than go back 6 years and farther. I know that's not the popular way to judge our coach on here, and never will be, but it's certainly the way ADs would judge him.

 

[8legs1dream]

pure comedy in here from the Cult of Mooney, totally delusional but still comedy.

 

[spiderstudent17]

I think the point about interest level in our coach from a P5 as a proxy indicator for how well we are doing is an excellent point overall. Typically, mid major coaches who do well will move on to P5 programs and that's likely a reflection of how well the program is doing. VCU has had numerous head coaches over the last 10 years as an example. Of course some will stay like McKillop at Davidson or Few at Gonzaga (who is essentially a power conference team). As far as I am aware, despite not having very bad or very good results from 2014-2019, we did not have any P5 interest in Mooney at that time. I think that could certainly have been a piece of information factored in to the overall conversation on whether Mooney should've been fired in 2016-2019.

But what was then and should've done is different than now and what we should be doing. Mooney is doing well now and is operating under different conditions than 10 years ago. Who isn't to say if in the next 3 years we continue to have some very good results and Mooney gets more coaching recognitions that a P5 school won't explore the interest in him? I don't know how much genuine interest Mooney would have in return, but any good agent would tell the coach to at least keep the door open. Also keep in mind that P5 schools likely want coaches working under similar conditions and backgrounds to their institution. I don't see Mooney being offered by schools like Mississippi State or Oklahoma State even if he were to continue doing really well, but rather the Wake Forest, Boston College, Syracuse, etc. Same way a lot of our coaches have come from Patriot League or Ivy league backgrounds. Not saying I agree with that approach either, but just what I have noticed.

 

[gcarter52]

I think the point about interest level in our coach from a P5 as a proxy indicator for how well we are doing is an excellent point overall. Typically, mid major coaches who do well will move on to P5 programs and that's likely a reflection of how well the program is doing. VCU has had numerous head coaches over the last 10 years as an example. Of course some will stay like McKillop at Davidson or Few at Gonzaga (who is essentially a power conference team). As far as I am aware, despite not having very bad or very good results from 2014-2019, we did not have any P5 interest in Mooney at that time. I think that could certainly have been a piece of information factored in to the overall conversation on whether Mooney should've been fired in 2016-2019.

But what was then and should've done is different than now and what we should be doing. Mooney is doing well now and is operating under different conditions than 10 years ago. Who isn't to say if in the next 3 years we continue to have some very good results and Mooney gets more coaching recognitions that a P5 school won't explore the interest in him? I don't know how much genuine interest Mooney would have in return, but any good agent would tell the coach to at least keep the door open. Also keep in mind that P5 schools likely want coaches working under similar conditions and backgrounds to their institution. I don't see Mooney being offered by schools like Mississippi State or Oklahoma State even if he were to continue doing really well, but rather the Wake Forest, Boston College, Syracuse, etc. Same way a lot of our coaches have come from Patriot League or Ivy league backgrounds. Not saying I agree with that approach either, but just what I have noticed.

 

[spiderman]

So am I.

You left the giant, hulking aspect of the program out of your equation. We have all that and a coach with a lifetime deal. After 3 ncaas, 2 of which were when the current freshmen had not yet entered kindergarten.

So yes, for that kind of security, with these resources I want NCAAs. I don’t want leafy excuses.

If the guys we just brought in are not making up a top 3 team with our returnees - after all the giant success 5 year success I’ve heard about and seen stats for here - when will we ever get that talent? Some mythical year in the future.

20 years on, time is now. We’ve got a winning program, guys are winning individual awards. I reset my expectations that the winning will continue. Now I want NCAAs regularly.

As a fan, my opinion is that is the goal and the expectation. You want to measure yours, fine. But I don’t buy that. Otherwise wtf are we even doing?

Stay leafy.

not sure what I need to say to be more clear ...
you have expectations to make the tournament. you feel we fans deserve that. we have a good school, a nice arena, a practice facility, we pay our coach well, we think we have a solid NIL. so the tournament is an expectation, a goal, a demand even. I get that.

but I'm not talking about that! I'm talking about our 13 guys vs the rest of the league. are we better than the rest of the A10? if so, or at least top 4, then I EXPECT to make the tournament.

I thought we were really good in 2019-20. I expected to make the tournament. covid cut it short. 20-21 was weird. we never got it together. that was disappointing. but I expected to make the tournament that year too. 21-22 I expected to make the tournament. I doubted it for a while, but Gilly came through.

last year, we had a lot of new faces. I hoped, but can't say I expected it. think I'm in the same boat this year. we have potential. but like bustingbrackets says, we're middle of the road talent-wise. or at least there are some unanswered questions. we'll know more soon.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

I fully understand what you're saying. I disagree on some of your points (20-21 we had it all together early and it all fell apart and the staff absolutely deserves blame for a few high-profile incidents and results) but overall, I don't understand why you think our talent should not be top 3 in the league, following our recent success?

If it's not, I think that is an issue - and a major coaching staff failure - because we have everything in place following the past few seasons. So therefore, I'm believing we do have top 3 talent. I get that there are question marks but based on where our program is at, if it is not top 3 now, I tend to think it will never be. And I refuse to accept that. If it's true, then UR is content to be a minor blip every 4-5 years, which is a total failure of ambition.

What I'm saying is that I'm fully bought in. I think we should be top 3. If we finish 8th and the staff spent their "success capital" recruiting 8th place talent, I think it is a gigantic failure following our recent success and re-evaluation needs to take place.

 

[GKiller]

how can we not be top 3 regularly in the past and going fwd if we've continued to be one of the top basketball programs in the nation

 

[urmite]

how can we not be top 3 regularly in the past and going fwd if we've continued to be one of the top basketball programs in the nation

I swear I saw an article recently with UConn behind Ohio ST (both around 10th) as a basketball program last 20 or 25 seasons, but now I can’t find that list.

 

[KE Spider]

Expectations...

MBB is Richmond's signature sport
One...just one....NCAA appearance in 13 years.

If this is not reflective of low institutional expectations/urgency, someone please explain what would be.

 

[RichmondNative]

The issue is definitely expectations. Of course, the AD and staff want low expectations because then it is easy to exceed them. I am sure they love seeing the “projection” in the middle of the pack - I sure would if I was on staff. However, the internal staff goal has to be at the very least a top 4 A10 finish and of course it should be a first place finish and a NCAA bid. I am sure the team will shoot for a bid, why wouldn’t they. The issue comes down to motivation and that is what has shown to be lacking at least externally. Everyone knows exactly what CM is going to say in every post game presser. There is no expectation of greatness - it is always we competed. If I am a contributing member of the collective I sure as heck am looking for more from my investment than a “we tried”.

The good news is that UR appears to be making lots of the right moves but hedging bets and downplaying everything. I honestly don’t think that the A10 is a tough league. I think it is a balanced league, but the days of having multiple legit contenders for NCAA glory is way in the rearview. The A10 is a mid-major hoping for an upset or two in the tournament. There is absolutely no reason that UR shouldn’t be in the conversation as a regular top 4 A10 team, they just purposefully don’t try to be in the conversation.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Native, question: what do you think of that decision to downplay the program and its expectations about how good it is?

I think you can guess my thoughts.

 

[spiderman]

So therefore, I'm believing we do have top 3 talent.

so you feel we HAVE top 3 talent because we SHOULD have top 3 talent???

I'm sure Dayton, VCU, SLU, Loyola-Chicago, UMass, URI, GMU, and Duquesne fans and probably others all feel the same.

whether we should or shouldn't is another debate. but if we're asking if we do, then to have top 3 talent I'd expect to have someone as a 1st team all-league player, and maybe another as a 2nd teamer.

who knows? maybe someone steps up and has a huge year. but King is gone. who do we think on our roster is all-A10?

 

[gcarter52]

My God, we are not finished with summer yet, I think our team need a chance to prove themselves during preseason and regular season!

 

[spiderman]

My God, we are not finished with summer yet, I think our team need a chance to prove themselves during preseason and regular season!

of course. we're talking about current expectations though. based on what we've seen and read. I hope that's allowed.

 

[VT4700]

Native, question: what do you think of that decision to downplay the program and its expectations about how good it is?

I think you can guess my thoughts.

Who downplays expectations? If members of a message board constantly say a school downplays expectations and doesn't care about winning, that doesn't make it true.

 

[VT4700]

The issue is definitely expectations. Of course, the AD and staff want low expectations because then it is easy to exceed them. I am sure they love seeing the “projection” in the middle of the pack - I sure would if I was on staff. However, the internal staff goal has to be at the very least a top 4 A10 finish and of course it should be a first place finish and a NCAA bid. I am sure the team will shoot for a bid, why wouldn’t they. The issue comes down to motivation and that is what has shown to be lacking at least externally. Everyone knows exactly what CM is going to say in every post game presser. There is no expectation of greatness - it is always we competed. If I am a contributing member of the collective I sure as heck am looking for more from my investment than a “we tried”.

The good news is that UR appears to be making lots of the right moves but hedging bets and downplaying everything. I honestly don’t think that the A10 is a tough league. I think it is a balanced league, but the days of having multiple legit contenders for NCAA glory is way in the rearview. The A10 is a mid-major hoping for an upset or two in the tournament. There is absolutely no reason that UR shouldn’t be in the conversation as a regular top 4 A10 team, they just purposefully don’t try to be in the conversation.

Some of you have no clue what Mooney says to the team at practice, in meetings, before games and after games, but judge a whole program on some comments to the media.

Mooney is a player's coach. I think everyone would agree with that. He doesn't throw guys under the bus, he keeps chemistry good, and he likes to stay positive. This doesn't mean he lacks motivation, doesn't want to win or care about winning. We were picked 11th last year. Yet, we go 15-3 and win the regular season....that seems hard to do if you have no motivation and don't care about winning. We won the A-10 title and beat Iowa in the dance in 2022. That also seems hard to do if you don't care about winning. Why wouldn't we just be happy with "competing" in the A-10 finals or the game against Iowa? We went 24-7 in 2020. Again, that seems hard to do if all Mooney is doing is just telling the guys "let's go compete and give it our best today".

You and others have no clue about how anyone in our program cares about winning. Some of often criticize our AD, our coach, and even our players at times, usually using random comments to the media as a tell all. Results obviously will never change your opinion. Sometimes, I wonder if some of you would rather be a sub .500 team every year, but have a coach who yells at players and throws them under the bus to the media.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

I had no idea we went 24-7 in 2020.

I also think you miss the point. It's not that Moon may be a player's coach who everyone associated within the program loves, it's that the external messaging and branding, which includes comments to media about expectations, goals and performance, is so understated that at times it feels nonexistent. I think UR can and should do much better in this regard.

Your angry projections are pretty wild. Keep listing your stats and the truthing shall live on forever (or at least until 24-7 is outside the 5 year criteria period.)

 

[8legs1dream]

Some of you have no clue what Mooney says to the team at practice, in meetings, before games and after games,

oh and you do? Are you finally ready to reveal something to us Coach?

 

[97spiderfan]

Mooney is the ninth-longest tenured coach in D1 at this point. Here are the ones ahead of him: Tom Izzo (Michigan State), Greg Kampe (Oakland), James Jones (Yale), Mark Few (Gonzaga), Randy Bennett (Saint Mary's), Leonard Hamilton (Florida State), Bill Self (Kansas), and Scott Drew (Baylor).

All but Kampe and Jones have had major success, won a lot of conference championships, made a ton of NCAA tournaments and won a lot of games there. Three have won national championships. Jones has won eight combined regular and postseason tournaments (and the Ivy hasn't had the latter for most of his tenure), while Kampe has won nine. Mooney has won three. It's fair to say that Mooney is an anomaly among D1 coaches to have this type of long tenure at a high-level school without having major success within his own conference and/or in the NCAAs, and I say that not in an accusatory way but just simply from a place of fact.

I think a part of this from the UR AD's standpoint is that they see a benefit from having Mooney in the conversation as one of the longest tenured coaches, the winningest coach of all time at UR, etc... They celebrate stuff like that all of the time. Even though, the stuff the average fan cares about (winning championships and going to the NCAA) are undeniably subpar for a coach with his tenure.

That has been and always will be the disconnect with Mooney and the fanbase. For a guy 20 years in, his on court success is quite sparse in comparison with peer coaches with similar tenures.

 

[VT4700]

I had no idea we went 24-7 in 2020.

I also think you miss the point. It's not that Moon may be a player's coach who everyone associated within the program loves, it's that the external messaging and branding, which includes comments to media about expectations, goals and performance, is so understated that at times it feels nonexistent. I think UR can and should do much better in this regard.

Your angry projections are pretty wild. Keep listing your stats and the truthing shall live on forever (or at least until 24-7 is outside the 5 year criteria period.)

Fine, so you care more about what a coach says to the media than what he says to his players, or what the results have looked like the last 5 years. I will disagree with that. All good.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

No.

I care about both.

Keep projecting.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I think a part of this from the UR AD's standpoint is that they see a benefit from having Mooney in the conversation as one of the longest tenured coaches, the winningest coach of all time at UR, etc... They celebrate stuff like that all of the time. Even though, the stuff the average fan cares about (winning championships and going to the NCAA) are undeniably subpar for a coach with his tenure.

That has been and always will be the disconnect with Mooney and the fanbase. For a guy 20 years in, his on court success is quite sparse in comparison with peer coaches with similar tenures.

Agree with this and I think this, along with his recent success, puts him in the category of lifetime contract with UR. I think UR would love him to keep winning 18-20+ games a year - have him coach at UR for 30 years and then celebrate possibly having the all time leading wins leader in the A10. Even though the other 2 above him I believe are Phil Martelli - 23 years and 7 appearances, with span where they reached as high as ranked #1 in the country. And John Chaney - 24 years and 17 appearances. Mooney could maybe catch Martelli in terms of NCAA appearances if he goes on a hot streak in the next 10-12 years.

 

[RichmondNative]

Native, question: what do you think of that decision to downplay the program and its expectations about how good it is?

I think you can guess my thoughts.

I think it is a major missed opportunity. If you don’t hype your team then any at large conversation has yet another obstacle to overcome. Preseason talk matters as someone showed in the Dayton case last year. In addition it is a white flag that says we concede to the Broad St boys. Fortunately the location of the University is in the name or no one would know where it is located from the basketball perspective.

But I also get it. The administration wants to focus in academics not athletics and I can’t blame them since the purpose for a university is education. However, someone is sure spending an excessive amount of money on something that is “good enough” and not a focus. The lack of alignment is what is most baffling to me.

 

[Spiderwiz]

However, someone is sure spending an excessive amount of money on something that is “good enough” and not a focus.

this is spot on.

 

[VT4700]

I think it is a major missed opportunity. If you don’t hype your team then any at large conversation has yet another obstacle to overcome. Preseason talk matters as someone showed in the Dayton case last year. In addition it is a white flag that says we concede to the Broad St boys. Fortunately the location of the University is in the name or no one would know where it is located from the basketball perspective.

But I also get it. The administration wants to focus in academics not athletics and I can’t blame them since the purpose for a university is education. However, someone is sure spending an excessive amount of money on something that is “good enough” and not a focus. The lack of alignment is what is most baffling to me.

LOL...so we are spending a lot of money on basketball, but aren't "focused" on it??? Okay.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

I would say we focus on it from an athletic perspective, but don't maximize it from an institution perspective.

 

[97spiderfan]

How do you know no one would hire him? I'm pretty sure ADs looking to hire a coach would look more at the last 5 years than go back 6 years and farther. I know that's not the popular way to judge our coach on here, and never will be, but it's certainly the way ADs would judge him.

First of all, If other places wanted to hire Mooney, we would know. I doubt any BCS program would hire him with 3 NCAA's in 20 years. Which means that any school that would be interested in Mooney would most likely be a school in a lower conference, who will not pay as much as we do, would be a lower profile job, etc...

Secondly, we also know that Mooney has basically no desire to go anywhere else. So, even if other programs would be interested, they are not ringing Mooney's doorbell because they know he doesn't want to move.

So again from my perspective, there was no reason to do this extension. He was already the top compensated coach in our league to begin with.

 

[8legs1dream]

Exactly 97. Want to know which mid major coaches are receiving interest from more prestigious conferences? They are taking the jobs and moving there. The only real exception is Few.

 

[UR80sfan]

I think a part of this from the UR AD's standpoint is that they see a benefit from having Mooney in the conversation as one of the longest tenured coaches, the winningest coach of all time at UR, etc... They celebrate stuff like that all of the time. Even though, the stuff the average fan cares about (winning championships and going to the NCAA) are undeniably subpar for a coach with his tenure.

That has been and always will be the disconnect with Mooney and the fanbase. For a guy 20 years in, his on court success is quite sparse in comparison with peer coaches with similar tenures.

I think a part of this from the UR AD's standpoint is that they see a benefit from having Mooney in the conversation as one of the longest tenured coaches, the winningest coach of all time at UR, etc... They celebrate stuff like that all of the time. Even though, the stuff the average fan cares about (winning championships and going to the NCAA) are undeniably subpar for a coach with his tenure.

That has been and always will be the disconnect with Mooney and the fanbase. For a guy 20 years in, his on court success is quite sparse in comparison with peer coaches with similar tenures.

There is no disconnect with the coach and the fan base. We have had the highest attendance for our size of any school in the country.

BTW, not sure why we keep having these posts. The coach was just selected at A10 coach of the year, he has had a terrific run over the past 6 years, we have a fantastic group of new players coming and our coach is guaranteed to be around for many more years.

 

[SpiderAlways]

One trip to the NCAA’s in the last six years! He hit his average. Big fing whoop

 

[SpiderAlways]

One trip to the NCAA’s in the last six years! He hit his average. Big fing whoop

I have to correct myself, giving the moonman way too much credit. One trip in the last 13 years! He has gotten three times that in extensions though. I certainly hope whoever his agent is is getting way more business than he can handle. Talk about ROCK STAR!

 

[urmite]

There is no disconnect with the coach and the fan base. We have had the highest attendance for our size of any school in the country.

BTW, not sure why we keep having these posts. The coach was just selected at A10 coach of the year, he has had a terrific run over the past 6 years, we have a fantastic group of new players coming and our coach is guaranteed to be around for many more years.

Slight correction, I would use 5 years, assuming you mean seasons.