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Honest Question

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kneepadmckinney

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Jan 23, 2006
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Honest question for the board:

If it were guaranteed that our entire recruiting class for next year would decommit if we fired Mooney, would you still do it?
 
Hypothetical - the message board does not determine Mooney's future and has been stated numerous times - ad nauseam - unless you (or someone else) are going to put up the funds to buy out Mooney's contract it is not under consideration.
 
spider fan said:
Hypothetical - the message board does not determine Mooney's future and has been stated numerous times - ad nauseam - unless you (or someone else) are going to put up the funds to buy out Mooney's contract it is not under consideration.
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It won't be under consideration until the people who are in charge of the decision making feel the heat. And those people do not like having their image, reputations questioned. But when that happens and they feel the heat, ugly as it may have to be, things tend to get done faster. But much tougher to do that when everyone knows everyone and people fear the backlash if they question someone with power, esp if they have a prior relationship with them.
 
No. I'm as tough of a critic of Chris's as I think anyone on here, but the product we see on the court is a product of several straight years of recruiting misses (which make no mistake about it is a pure reflection of Mooney as a recruiter). Next year's class appears on paper at least to be vastly better and has the potential of bringing in 2 possibly program elevating recruits.

I think we have seen that Chris can be a very good coach when he has the talent needed to execute. Next year recruiting class can not be a flash in the pan and then a return back to our old recruiting ways, it must be sustained.

One quick measure I am using to determine that is who our 4th recruit is. If we end up with a Domionaus type recruit as the 4th guy because we can't land a Wesson type recruit, my opinion on this may change. We also need to land a grad transfer big man for next year, there can not be excuses anymore for not getting things like this done.
 
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I agree with most of that, except the grad transfer. while that would be awesome, I just don't think it's possible at UR no matter who the coach is. we're just not a realistic destination for a really good grad transfer big man.
 
kneepadmckinney said:
Honest question for the board:

If it were guaranteed that our entire recruiting class for next year would decommit if we fired Mooney, would you still do it?
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Yes, in a minute. Recruits are always a crap shoot, look at our history of recruits. On the other hand a coach will make or break a program over time (by the way that includes the new coach's recruiting skills). One recruiting class will not make or break our program.
 
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That's an interesting question. I would say No. I like what's coming next year, and I like the trend towards local Va talent. I am probably wrong, but I think Mooney has learned that "athletes" don't nessasarily make good basketball players. It seems he has recruited basketball players for 2016 and 2017 so far. I am willing to ride this out since we already spent the $5.5 million either way.
 
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I'm willing to start the donations towards getting rid of Mooney. I don't even enjoy going to the games now. I don't want to watch my team spiral out of control as Mooney sits on the bench with his legs crossed.
I disagree about the recruits "saving" us, Mooney did nothing with Terry Allen and I don't know if he would win with Lebron.
 
OldSpiderFan said:
I'm willing to start the donations towards getting rid of Mooney. I don't even enjoy going to the games now. I don't want to watch my team spiral out of control as Mooney sits on the bench with his legs crossed.
I disagree about the recruits "saving" us, Mooney did nothing with Terry Allen and I don't know if he would win with Lebron.
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Seeding the pot with $3 mil ?? Lol
 
Terry Allen is one of the best players in the league and is going to make a lot of money playing basketball as a pro. I don't want to get all defending Mooney on a day like today, but to say he can not develop talent is ludicrous.

Terry Allen, TJ, Kendall, Kevin Anderson, Harp, Gonzo, Ced, Geriot are all players whose games improved significantly under Mooney. We have a load of guys playing professionally oversees now as well.

He needs to do a far better job at recruiting talent but once it hear, he is able to develop it.

I hope your happy now, that I had to go all s-man and 2011 here and throw up the old defense of the regime.
 
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I-M-UR said:
Yes, in a minute. Recruits are always a crap shoot, look at our history of recruits. On the other hand a coach will make or break a program over time (by the way that includes the new coach's recruiting skills). One recruiting class will not make or break our program.
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Best answer
 
Ulla1 said:
Think Monte is smart enough to recognize that a vdu education is worth nothing. Do you still have your paper route TD4? OSC
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Well, since we can't beat them on the court, guess we have to go back to the country club academic smack talk. That won't perpetuate the stereotype...
 
No. These players coming in are ready. It's a special class. If you don't think so go watch them play right here in RVA.
 
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I am starting to feel like there is no middle ground with Mooney, though, 97. You either fit, or you don't. He is not going to adapt to the players, which, unfortunately, makes the margin of error in recruiting that much smaller.

Was the Wade Phillips quote posted here? I can't remember, but basically he said something about a week or so ago saying that it's up to him as defensive coordinator to take the talent that he has and make the most of it. No excuses. This is even one of the reasons I have not been a huge fan since the outset of Mooney. We allowed him to spend the first year or two here in Richmond having people like Gaston Moliva and Drew Crank throwing up threes because CM couldn't adapt his offense at all. And now, with 10 years of recruiting "his type" of players, we are still not very good.

Inability to adapt gets people Darwinized.
 
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KWeaver said:
I am starting to feel like there is no middle ground with Mooney, though, 97. You either fit, or you don't. He is not going to adapt to the players, which, unfortunately, makes the margin of error in recruiting that much smaller.

Was the Wade Phillips quote posted here? I can't remember, but basically he said something about a week or so ago saying that it's up to him as defensive coordinator to take the talent that he has and make the most of it. No excuses. This is even one of the reasons I have not been a huge fan since the outset of Mooney. We allowed him to spend the first year or two here in Richmond having people like Gaston Moliva and Drew Crank throwing up threes because CM couldn't adapt his offense at all. And now, with 10 years of recruiting "his type" of players, we are still not very good.

Inability to adapt gets people Darwinized.
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The rigidity and inflexibilty is amazing given that CM is a young coach. In general people have to recognize when something is not working & change is in order. Evidently that does not apply to our basketball program and "adapting" is a foreign word.

Forcing square pegs into round holes never worked & never will. Example - How successful have we been in attempting to make 3 point shooter of our players in the existing system. I'd think the experiment of 5th year seniors has proven not to work.
 
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KWeaver said:
I am starting to feel like there is no middle ground with Mooney, though, 97. You either fit, or you don't. He is not going to adapt to the players, which, unfortunately, makes the margin of error in recruiting that much smaller.

Was the Wade Phillips quote posted here? I can't remember, but basically he said something about a week or so ago saying that it's up to him as defensive coordinator to take the talent that he has and make the most of it. No excuses. This is even one of the reasons I have not been a huge fan since the outset of Mooney. We allowed him to spend the first year or two here in Richmond having people like Gaston Moliva and Drew Crank throwing up threes because CM couldn't adapt his offense at all. And now, with 10 years of recruiting "his type" of players, we are still not very good.

Inability to adapt gets people Darwinized.[/QUOTE


KWeaver, I couldn't agree more and 97 I couldn't agree less on both of your latest posts. I do not think that Coach Mooney has ever been what I would consider a good coach. He is inflexible, etc....you've heard it all before, and most of it is unfortunately true. I also think that in general the players who have done well in Mooney's tenure fit his system and were good players no matter who the coach was. Almost all of our players get better year after year simply because they get older. The key is the degree to which they improve. I submit, admittedly a subjective judgment, that too many of the marginal players never reach their true potential under Mooney and his "system." None of these thoughts can ever be proved it's just my observation over 11 years: inflexible approach, never switching defenses, no essential improvement in rebounding or rebounding philosophy, not a stellar record in recruitment, not great game management, does not seem to have fostered a mental toughness among his players (Gonzo, KA, KO, Smitty, Garrett, Ced notwithstanding) although we have tough-minded kids come into the program. There's too much thinking and not enough doing on the court. CM overthinks and overcomplicates the game. All of these thoughts are subjective, and I welcome comments.
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Great question, had to reflect. Yes, no faith in CM to win with incoming class either after whipping Bethune Cookman and the like
 
No, at this point he's either going to make it or break it with the next recruiting class and we might as well finish this out. Moneywise and recruiting wise seems to make the most sense however disappointing the season has been.

Mooney has to know its not working with the current class but has proven he can make it work with the right talent. Next year's class is a step in that direction so we will find out if the program can turn the corner or not.

Like others have said mooney really needs to take some time to learn different strategies and schemes for defense and be able to implement them so we have a wide variety of options. I know a lot of coaches have their styles and they tend to stick to them so he isn't the only one.
 
I-M-UR said:
Yes, in a minute. Recruits are always a crap shoot, look at our history of recruits. On the other hand a coach will make or break a program over time (by the way that includes the new coach's recruiting skills). One recruiting class will not make or break our program.
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Yes. Agree with I-M-UR on this one. An exceptional player or 2 only mask the Coach's flaws, it doesn't enhance his skill.
 
I-M-UR said:
Yes, in a minute. Recruits are always a crap shoot, look at our history of recruits. On the other hand a coach will make or break a program over time (by the way that includes the new coach's recruiting skills). One recruiting class will not make or break our program.
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Yes but one bad coach can break the program for years.

So the hypothetical should include a hypothesis about the certainty of a new coach being "good".
 
Absolutely not. CM has his issues, but he did take us to the sweet 16 not too far back. I know he had KA and Harp, but he brought those players to Richmond, developed them, and won big time using many of the strategies he still employees. The results since KA left have been lacking, so I'm not saying he should be given a pass for those years either (and I couldn't be more frustrated with the results this year). Just saying, this class has potential to be really special and 2 are from Richmond. CM has won here before, and is bringing in better recruits now. Success with these guys would be buge for the University and the Program.
 
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Spider B said:
Absolutely not. CM has his issues, but he did take us to the sweet 16 not too far back. I know he had KA and Harp, but he brought those players to Richmond, developed them, and won big time using many of the strategies he still employees. The results since KA left have been lacking, so I'm not saying he should be given a pass for those years either (and I couldn't be more frustrated with the results this year). Just saying, this class has potential to be really special and 2 are from Richmond. CM has won here before, and is bringing in better recruits now. Success with these guys would be buge for the University and the Program.
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If Chris is bringing in better recruits than before then most of the other 13 schools must be bringing in even better recruits.
 
The problem with bringing a coach back, especially at our mid-major level, because of an incoming class is that it means you probably need to keep him around then for 2, if not 3 more years to see that class develop.

I know everyone on here seems to think next year's class will be the best class yet for Mooney, but I am of the opinion that many of those frosh will not get to play much next season.

We have a 7 man rotation now, and lose 3 guys Allen and Davis and Taylor. Allen will no doubt be replaced by Wood, and Davis will be replaced by Fore. Who takes over for Taylor? Well - we have seen Paul get a few minutes, so its either a SOPH with little to no experience or a frosh with no experience. You will most likely see a starting line-up of ShawnDre, Fore, Wood, Cline, and
97spiderfan said:
Terry Allen is one of the best players in the league and is going to make a lot of money playing basketball as a pro. I don't want to get all defending Mooney on a day like today, but to say he can not develop talent is ludicrous.

Terry Allen, TJ, Kendall, Kevin Anderson, Harp, Gonzo, Ced, Geriot are all players whose games improved significantly under Mooney. We have a load of guys playing professionally oversees now as well.

He needs to do a far better job at recruiting talent but once it hear, he is able to develop it.

I hope your happy now, that I had to go all s-man and 2011 here and throw up the old defense of the regime.
Click to expand...

I am not sure Mooney can develop players. All the guys you mention - Allen, Kendall, Kevin Anderson, Harp, Gonzo, Ced, Geriot - these were all guys who played a lot of minutes since they were frosh, and some as Soph. And some of those guys - Gonzo, Anderson, Geriot - all played on bad teams when they arrived and had no chance of coming out of games because there was no one behind them. So although Mooney might have developed them, I might argue they developed themselves.

I think the better mark of a coach developing players are guys who don't play a lot early in their career, maybe are role players or bench guys - but when their time is called, either because of graduation or injury - they are able to step right in and there is not a huge dropoff. And that has been a major weakness of Mooney. After the NCAA years - guy like Garrett, Martel, Williams, Robins were never able to step up when it was their turn to lead. And we are seeing some similar things this year - we lose ANO, which opens the door for Taylor to step up and he has never taken a step forward. We need some help at guard this year because we lost Anthony, leaving some room for Davis to step up - and he has possibly gotten worse statistically since his Sophmore year. A good example for next year would be Paul - redshirt one year, plays a few games this year, and next season with the loss of Allen and Taylor, he seems to be in line for an expanded role - will he be able to step up.

So I don't agree with the develop talent and that is part of the reason I don't like the argument of keeping a coach like Mooney for his recruiting class. Any time a coach leaves or is fired - there is always an adjustment period (most of the time), usually a year or two.
 
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Why is everyone so certain that Marshall will replace terry at 4? His game is totally incongruent with what TA does. It is much more likely in my view that he replaces Deion as a three on O and maybe covers a big on D.

As to the broader point of player development, I suspect the answer here on CMs ability is somewhere between the extremes. There are many guys who have improved and it's impractical to think CM had no role in that. Similarly he's not gotten the most out of some guys who might have been able to contribute more.
 
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Who has improved that you can definitively say he had nothing to do with it?

It's an unprovable thing short of asking the players.
 
I'm not sure if you are kind of indicting coaching broadly or just CM. i learned a lot from my little league coach as a ten year old. I also got better the more I played. They aren't mutually exclusive. I don't see why it would be any different at other levels.
 
MrTbone said:
I'm not sure if you are kind of indicting coaching broadly or just CM. i learned a lot from my little league coach as a ten year old. I also got better the more I played. They aren't mutually exclusive. I don't see why it would be any different at other levels.
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You just naturally get better at anything playing agains better competition.
 
My little league coach sucked. Of course I didn't know that at the time since I was 10 years old. Wouldn't want him coaching a major college team though. I'm guessing there's a difference in talent.
 
Marley13 said:
My little league coach sucked. Of course I didn't know that at the time since I was 10 years old. Wouldn't want him coaching a major college team though. I'm guessing there's a difference in talent.
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Your little league coach was a dad who was a volunteer. He wasn't making $1.3 million. Lol
 
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