What I would like Keith Gill to do

[MrTbone]

It doesn't strike me that this is the kind of guy he is, meaning I don't think he's inclined to force Mooney out, nor do I think he's going to passively accept failure.

I know many here have some perception that Keith is treading water and unwilling to shake things up, but it's in his own interest to keep the program moving steadily upward and at the same time, not let it crater. Frankly, Jim Miller chose Wainwright whose hiring and subsequent departure caused the program to crater in 06-07, but I don't recall anyone really questioning that debacle. Keith also didn't sign the 10 year contract for CM, that was Miller as well.

I think the admission that there are issues is a testament of non-complacency and if more of the same happens next year, then you'll get your wish, buyout or no.

 

[iSpider]

I think the admission that there are issues is a testament of non-complacency and if more of the same happens next year, then you'll get your wish, buyout or no.

I think we need to give him two years, at least with respect to win/loss record.
I agree with those who think that we will be lucky to be .500 next year. If we are even close, and the recruits and recruiting show promise, there is no way we buy CM out next year. IMO.

 

[MrTbone]

I think we need to give him two years, at least with respect to win/loss record.
I agree with those who think that we will be lucky to be .500 next year. If we are even close, and the recruits and recruiting show promise, there is no way we buy CM out next year. IMO.

I'll clarify...more of the same means a similar record with no demonstrable change in tactics.

 

[Eight Legger]

I don't think we "need" to give him any more years. I understand that we will, because of the awful contract that Jim Miller gave him. But just look around. Dawkins fired after 7 years with only 1 NCAA at Stanford. Brady fired three years after an NCAA at JMU and coming off a 21-win season. Johnson fired after 4 years and no NCAAs at TCU. These are similar programs to ours. If he didn't have 5 years left on his deal, most schools would have fired Mooney today.

 

[72Spider]

Jmu and tcu are not similar programs to us.

 

[Eight Legger]

You're right, but I was being nice to us, because they are worse programs than we are and even they don't settle as badly as we do.

 

[mojo-spider]

It's very troubling to see decisive leadership in H-Burg....

Go Spiders!

 

[Spiders10]

Honestly, Gill's hands are tied as a result of this absurd contract signed by his predecessor. At this point in time I think his options are extremely limited, and he's taken the only option available -- come out and say that he/AD/Univ expects better results. Anything else would require a huge financial hit to the university. Unless an individual or a group raises the money for a buyout Gill isn't going to put the Univ in a bad position.

 

[Eight Legger]

I hope in the future we institute a new policy: Max 5-year contracts. That way if you give someone 3 years and the ship is sinking, you're only in the position to buy out 2 years, and hopefully the deal is structured such that that's not an enormous expense. Now if someone takes a 5-year deal initially and makes 5 NCAAs in a row, I'd consider going longer on the next deal, but show me consistency before I show you $12 million.

 

[MrTbone]

This is one of those situations where Miller looks like a genius if CM continues two years' great success for multiple more years. Instead, it looks like a terrible decision. Hindsight is 20/20, or even 20/15. It's also 0 for 5 in our case.

 

[PASpider]

Here's one link: http://www.thecollegianur.com/article/2015/09/university-of-richmonds-form-990-explained

Thanks!

 

[KWeaver]

Here's the type of thing that I would love to see from Gill:

http://jmusports.com/news/2016/3/9/bourne-dialogue-mens-basketball-program.aspx

I liked this letter too. Looks like Kenny Brooks is going to be the next coach at JMU.

 

[spiderman]

of course there's no way you write that letter without firing your coach. sorry Eight, but ridiculous to say otherwise. you and I will never be AD, but at least take the dream responsibly. you'd hurt the current team, the odds of signing recruits, and the odds of hiring another good coach. who wants to work for an AD who'd write that with a coach in place?

I hate that so much written on this board in my mind undermines the program in any way. I hate that Terry's mom looks forward to Terry's last days at UR because of fans on this board. and it doesn't matter what the board thinks of her opinion, or mine. it sucks. I miss the old days when you could whine at the water cooler or barber shop about this stuff, or write a letter to the AD to complain, without airing all our dirty laundry in public. why do we hurt the program to satisfy our need to vent?

 

[I-M-UR]

This is one of those situations where Miller looks like a genius if CM continues two years' great success for multiple more years. Instead, it looks like a terrible decision. Hindsight is 20/20, or even 20/15. It's also 0 for 5 in our case.

A 10 year agreement is bad and was bad, that isn't made in hindsight. UVA gave us all the bad examples we need. VCU's didn't do them any good. If you have the right qualifiers or performance targets the years don't matter. I still can't believe Jim didn't put some provisions for getting out of this deal before the 10 years was up with out a full buy out. If he did he made a horrible decision and knew he wouldn't have to live with it or, two there are provisions and I'd love to know what they are.

We just have to get used to if we get a great coach we're going to need to replace them it 5 or 6 years until the programs is at the top level in college hoops. Xavier for example.

 

[Eight Legger]

of course there's no way you write that letter without firing your coach. sorry Eight, but ridiculous to say otherwise. you and I will never be AD, but at least take the dream responsibly. you'd hurt the current team, the odds of signing recruits, and the odds of hiring another good coach. who wants to work for an AD who'd write that with a coach in place?

I hate that so much written on this board in my mind undermines the program in any way. I hate that Terry's mom looks forward to Terry's last days at UR because of fans on this board. and it doesn't matter what the board thinks of her opinion, or mine. it sucks. I miss the old days when you could whine at the water cooler or barber shop about this stuff, or write a letter to the AD to complain, without airing all our dirty laundry in public. why do we hurt the program to satisfy our need to vent?

I think I explained pretty clearly why Gill might write a letter similar to that without firing Mooney. (I also said in my version I would fire him.) He'd do it if he wanted to fire Mooney but couldn't afford to, as a way to force him out. I'm not saying it's likely, but yes, it would be possible, and no I don't think it would hurt the odds of hiring another good coach. It's been 5 years with no NCAAs, so the precedent it would set is that if the next coach fails to make the NCAAs for 5 straight years, he too might get a pointed letter. Ok. Is that so far out of bounds? It's not like we're expecting a national championship in year one.

As I've said many times on this board, personal attacks or criticisms of players or coaches, etc., are completely out of bounds and shouldn't be tolerated. But criticisms of the jobs coaches do or of the way players perform are completely acceptable IMO. Parents of players are parents – no one ever wants to hear any criticisms of their kids! I get that. I'm a parent too. Parents often have difficulty separating criticism or players' performances from criticism of their kids as people. I hope Terry's mom doesn't actually think all of our fans suck. Terry's been a helluva player for us for four years and dealing with what he's been dealing with makes that even more impressive.

At the same time, I hope parents of players understand the frustration that fans feel – most of it NOT DIRECTED AT THE PLAYERS, but instead at the coaches and the general lack of success this program has experienced the past 5 years.

 

[iSpider]

...I hate that so much written on this board in my mind undermines the program in any way. I hate that Terry's mom looks forward to Terry's last days at UR because of fans on this board. and it doesn't matter what the board thinks of her opinion, or mine. it sucks. I miss the old days when you could whine at the water cooler or barber shop about this stuff, or write a letter to the AD to complain, without airing all our dirty laundry in public. why do we hurt the program to satisfy our need to vent?

Sincere questions, no sarcasm or cynicism intended:
(1) How do you know that Terry's mom feels this way?
(2) How do you know that the criticism on this board hurts the program? There seem to be credible arguments by many lifelong, dyed-in-the wool Spider supporters on this board that the criticism is needed for necessary change.
(3) If you believe that change is needed, how would you bring it about since many have stated that their letters to the AD are responded to with stock answers indicating the AD's strong belief that CM is a perfect fit for UR and doing a great job?

BTW, I remain a CM supporter, and see a need for change with respect to the level of recruiting, but do not know with any degree of certainty how to bring this about. My ideas would include, as Coach Fezz believes, to look abroad for athletes, hire some top-notch scouting and recruiting services who are savy not only in the US, but also abroad, hire an assistant with a proven track record for recruiting and make that his primary responsibility, perhaps financially incentivize his successes, incentivize current assistants for recruiting successes, allow lower admission standards in certain warranted circumstances and have CM more directly involved with identified targets.

 

[spiderman]

1) I believe someone here quoted Terry's mom from Twitter.
2) I don't. I know the usual response will be "you should see other boards". I just know that as the parent of a young player, I'd be reading boards. maybe they all are the same. I don't know. but reading things about players on the team wouldn't make me feel great, and reading that people want the guy that's been in my living room gone would make me nervous.
3) I don't think message board criticism will ever effect change. write the AD if you think CM is the wrong guy. don't worry if you don't get the response you want. you've been heard. withhold donations. buy less seats and concessions.

 

[LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster]

re: I hope parents of players understand the frustration that fans feel – most of it NOT DIRECTED AT THE PLAYERS, but instead at the coaches and the general lack of success this program has experienced the past 5 years

why not the players? All of them, especially our experienced players made brutal mistakes at the worse possible times this year. Not going to mention but TJ, TA, SDJ, DT and TD all did it vs. STJ, VCU, Dayton, etc, etc. etc.

It would say the frustration should be shared.

and JMU's coach never moved to Harrisonburg--but can you blame him?

 

[URPike]

I would urge parents of players and anyone else to pay attention to the negative comments and who posts them. I don't go to other message boards but this one is dominated by fewer than 10 people at least half of whom are negative. Parents - and anyone for that matter - should be smart enough to know that 6 or 7 people do not speak for an entire fan base. They speak for themselves and the other ANONYMOUS coach wannabees that have all the answers. No one is happy with the season, least of all the coaches and players who bust their ass every day to do better, but I feel like we have a handful of people on here who cross the line.

 

[wr70beh]

Honestly, Gill's hands are tied as a result of this absurd contract signed by his predecessor. At this point in time I think his options are extremely limited, and he's taken the only option available -- come out and say that he/AD/Univ expects better results. Anything else would require a huge financial hit to the university. Unless an individual or a group raises the money for a buyout Gill isn't going to put the Univ in a bad position.

I think UVA is paying for 2-3 ex-coaches in both football and hoops. At least we're saving our money that way.

 

[97spiderfan]

Parents and players should know better than to go the anonymous message boards, particularly after a loss. That is just a masochistic activity for them to put themselves through and there is no recourse to take.

 

[SpiderK]

Wow, the MoveOn.Org people are on here trying to subdue free speech also. When does the rioting and looting start because some one had the opinion that a player didn't perform up to his ability?

 

[spiderman]

pointing out that a player had a bad game, or a bad week, or even a bad season is one thing. going too far with it or being too repetitive about it (i.e. being a dick about it) should get called out. oops, is that offensive? sorry, you know ... free speech and all that.

 

[MrTbone]

we should exchange "free speech" for "sensible speech", it would do more for everybody.

 

[97spiderfan]

pointing out that a player had a bad game, or a bad week, or even a bad season is one thing. going too far with it or being too repetitive about it (i.e. being a dick about it) should get called out. oops, is that offensive? sorry, you know ... free speech and all that.

Hey, s-man. Its, Mr. Dick to you, my best friends call me Richard though.

 

[spiderman]

Hey, s-man. Its, Mr. Dick to you, my best friends call me Richard though.

lol.

 

[SpiderK]

pointing out that a player had a bad game, or a bad week, or even a bad season is one thing. going too far with it or being too repetitive about it (i.e. being a dick about it) should get called out. oops, is that offensive? sorry, you know ... free speech and all that.

Lol. That's because it happened so often.

 

[64Spider]

As expected, nothing from the administration, aka Gill, about the state of our BB program. Expectations? Goals?

 

[Ulla1]

64, IMHO these are the kinds of things that take place in a private setting. The fact that Chris is visibly taking a more active role in recruiting tells me that there have been discussions regarding the expectations for the program. Be cool. Changes have been and will continue to occur. OSC

 

[URPike]

Am I in the minority of people that doesn't feel like I am owed an hourly update on the state of our program? No one is happy with the season and we have to do better. Done. Period.

 

[MolivaManiac]

The quotes from Gill in the Woody article the day after the Dayton beating in Brooklyn was good enough for me.

 

[97spiderfan]

The quotes from Gill in the Woody article the day after the Dayton beating in Brooklyn was good enough for me.

Agreed, management knows and has said publically in their own way that CM needs to improve the product he is putting out there. First step in fixing a problem is admitting you have one, and we have admitted it, now we will have to see if the CM and his staff have the ability to fix it.

 

[SpiderK]

Am I in the minority of people that doesn't feel like I am owed an hourly update on the state of our program? No one is happy with the season and we have to do better. Done. Period.

Took 5 years to get one.

 

[64Spider]

Am I in the minority of people that doesn't feel like I am owed an hourly update on the state of our program? No one is happy with the season and we have to do better. Done. Period.

I have no idea what you invest in the program and I don't count votes but I do expect at least a yearly accounting. Otherwise I will take a hard look at my investment in UR basketball.

 

[MrTbone]

I still think this talk of investment is kind of ridiculous. Ticket purchases are exactly that, a purchase. Donations or contributions are similarly the same.

I think it's ok to express displeasure by withholding your pocketbook, but the idea that there's some direct accounting to fans as shareholders is mostly nonsense.

 

[Eight Legger]

I still think this talk of investment is kind of ridiculous. Ticket purchases are exactly that, a purchase. Donations or contributions are similarly the same.

I think it's ok to express displeasure by withholding your pocketbook, but the idea that there's some direct accounting to fans as shareholders is mostly nonsense.

I don't expect a shareholder's report, but we are the invested customers. A letter from Gill/Mooney/Rocco usually is included with season tickets to football or basketball, along with a sheet or two that explain the benefits we are getting by virtue of buying season tickets. I think we're just asking for that type of communication, perhaps with a little more attention to performance, BEFORE we buy, not after.

I don't like it when I get one call a year from a solicitation company and the first words out of the caller's mouth are "Thanks so much for your generous donation last year..." because I know the next words will be "...so, how much can we count on you for this year?" I'd prefer that they call me separately at some point when they're NOT soliciting money just to tell me what they've done with my donation and others, as opposed to only telling me all that when they are asking for more money.

 

[64Spider]

So Tbone you can call it whatever, donation, investment, entertainment budget. Really doesn't matter to me but 12 tickets for basketball and football plus the requisite contribution to Spider Club I think of as money invested that could easily go elsewhere if the product isn't worthy. Take away the fans and who funds the programs. No accountability leads to failure. I'm just too old fashioned to understand your idea that accountability is nonsense.

 

[MrTbone]

So Tbone you can call it whatever, donation, investment, entertainment budget. Really doesn't matter to me but 12 tickets for basketball and football plus the requisite contribution to Spider Club I think of as money invested that could easily go elsewhere if the product isn't worthy. Take away the fans and who funds the programs. No accountability leads to failure. I'm just too old fashioned to understand your idea that accountability is nonsense.

I didn't say that there shouldn't be accountability, I said accounting. I meant that very literally, which is that there seems to be some expectation that X investment should yield Y return. This is what I think is kooky, it's not how sports, in particular college sports, works. This reduces it to some kind of decision tree and anticipated return without regard to the simple enjoyment of going to the games. And I'm not picking on you btw, this is a pervasive comment I read which I don't get. I'm a fan of the Spids good and bad and don't throttle my spend according to recency of success. I guess I'm old fashioned in that regard.

 

[9Legs]

64, IMHO these are the kinds of things that take place in a private setting. The fact that Chris is visibly taking a more active role in recruiting tells me that there have been discussions regarding the expectations for the program. Be cool. Changes have been and will continue to occur. OSC

"Chris is visibly taking a more active role in recruiting"
- Not sure what to make of this statement? I would think that "recruiting" is not something that would be delegated to an assistant that never played for a top 100 program or ever appeared in an NCAA tournament game. How does the "head coach" not consider recruiting to be his top priority? If this is true, it explains Luke P, Diekvoss, Smithen, Kovien(sp) and the talent that we have attracted. I have said in previous posts that our "sales team" was deficient and couldn't sell our product. If CM is not the sales manager and does not recognize what is key for the success of the program, we are in worse shape than I thought.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

"Chris is visibly taking a more active role in recruiting"
- Not sure what to make of this statement? I would think that "recruiting" is not something that would be delegated to an assistant that never played for a top 100 program or ever appeared in an NCAA tournament game. How does the "head coach" not consider recruiting to be his top priority? If this is true, it explains Luke P, Diekvoss, Smithen, Kovien(sp) and the talent that we have attracted. I have said in previous posts that our "sales team" was deficient and couldn't sell our product. If CM is not the sales manager and does not recognize what is key for the success of the program, we are in worse shape than I thought.

Amen brother!