What benchmark should be used to determine if our team is doing a good job over time?

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

So I move onto .......

1. What conference does the team play in?

Forget the BE promotion, even if occurred, Spiders probably be the filler in team for the conference like DePaul and never reach the NCAA tourney.

I go back to when mentioning Gonzaga's rise to power and how UR could become the East version without a conference upgrade. TOUGH OOC SCHEDULING. The West Coast Conf of course was weak way back just like now excluding the Zags and St Mary's.

Some OOC numbers from when Mark Few took over the program in 1999. How many opponents were from 1. Power 5/6 conferences and 2. (number of OOC games).

1999 6 (15) Plus played #1 Cincy and #19 Temple
2000 3 (12)
2001 4 (13)
2002 7 (14)
2003 7 (14)
2004 6 (12)
2005 6 (13)
2006 8 (14) Plus played a Caliperi #4 Memphis team
2007 8 (14) Plus played a Caliperi #4 Memphis team (no typo error)
2008 8 (17) Plus played #8 Memphis
2009 8 (16) Plus played #1 Memphis
2010 8 (14) Plus played #14 Memphis
2011 9 (15)
2012 8 (16)
2013 4 (12)
2014 5 (12)
2015 6 (11) Plus #18 UConn and #16 SMU
2016 5 (12)
2017 6 (13)

As shown, seems it took an ambitious Few a few years to get the OOC schedule where he wanted it, STRONG. And seems looking at last 4-5 seasons, the Zags are in a position to call more shots of who to play without over doing it with P5/6 schools.

OK, so CM has possibly little say in getting admissions to lower academic standards, but he can't tell/demand the AD to schedule better competition? CM, where's your ambition to get the Spiders to the next level? I understand, no need when you have a cushy job with no pressure from above to do better.

And finally CM's 13 years at UR OOC rank averages at #169 while compared Gonzaga's #51 rank.

 

[MrTbone]

Not that I disagree with your point, but it’s far easier to get a slew of P5 games when you have a decent and consistent record of being a non-RPI anchor.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Not that I disagree with your point, but it’s far easier to get a slew of P5 games when you have a decent and consistent record of being a non-RPI anchor.

Who said it was easy, Just Do It! So tired of the lame excuses covering CM's butt and the defeatist attitudes around here. I'm starting to believe what has been posted, that enough of the contingent here does have some kind of personal connection to the program.

 

[MrTbone]

Who said it was easy, Just Do It! So tired of the lame excuses covering CM's butt and the defeatist attitudes around here. I'm starting to believe what has been posted, that enough of the contingent here does have some kind of personal connection to the program.

Don’t get all crotchety. I’m not making excuses. I’m noting that you don’t get to just pick who you play.

Right now we are a P5 program’s worst OOC nightmare, a crappy RPI team that has a history of surprising big programs. No one is itching to play us.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Don’t get all crotchety. I’m not making excuses. I’m noting that you don’t get to just pick who you play.

Right now we are a P5 program’s worst OOC nightmare, a crappy RPI team that has a history of surprising big programs. No one is itching to play us.

Sorry, didn't mean you personally though I did reply off your post. Just generally perception of enough posters here.

Look I can give you plenty of TOP 5/6 conference teams that play at HOME, crappy RPI teams like UR. Seriously, no disrespect to you, but I'm dumbfounded to think those head coaches are scared to play the Spiders

And the history you mentioned of surprising big programs, from 2012-2018, I count Cal being the only 1 in 2016. I also count losses against Florida, Kansas, NC, Cincy, WV, Maryland, NCST, UCLA, Minny (2).

You have to go back in history further, when surprises were against Purdue, Florida, and Missouri during the 2010/2011 seasons, coinciding with the last times CM took the Spiders to the NCAAs. I believe that crutch needed to be thrown away quite awhile ago.

 

[MrTbone]

Sorry, didn't mean you personally though I did reply off your post. Just generally perception of enough posters here.

Look I can give you plenty of TOP 5/6 conference teams that play at HOME, crappy RPI teams like UR. Seriously, no disrespect to you, but I'm dumbfounded to think those head coaches are scared to play the Spiders

And the history you mentioned of surprising big programs, from 2012-2018, I count Cal being the only 1 in 2016. I also count losses against Florida, Kansas, NC, Cincy, WV, Maryland, NCST, UCLA, Minny (2).

You have to go back in history further, when surprises were against Purdue, Florida, and Missouri during the 2010/2011 seasons, coinciding with the last times CM took the Spiders to the NCAAs. I believe that crutch needed to be thrown away quite awhile ago.

I’m not saying we have a recent history of P5 success but we are definitely an unpredictable matchup. Some seasons we are top100, some seasons we are down, both scenarios present problems for a school that’s trying to schedule a certain way. If we’re good and they don’t expect it, there goes an easy win. If we’re bad and they expected a decent but winnable top100 game, they just got a potential rpi anchor, win or loss.

If we get on a multi-year winning streak I think you’ll get the uptick in P5 games. Success begets success to an extent.

 

[spider23]

I see both sides, yes the big boys have not incentive currently to play us with our not so good rpi. It's a lose lose for them. BUT, I do agree that you can take on the philosophy to play "anyone anytime" and you can get some games that are not ideal but are good games. Hopefully Hardt will push the envelope on this front. I do think the mind set from the top is let's load up and build up to take our shot one in 4 years. If you settle for this mentality and then miss out on that 4th year, well you see the results.

 

[MrTbone]

Out last 7 OOC SOS per KenPom (starting with 2018): 35, 214, 98, 177, 169, 245, 143. The last two NCAA appearances we had OOC SOS of 95 and 124. So we are all over the place. It was interesting that those NCAA years did not have compellingly tough OOC SOS although A10 was pretty strong which helped SOS overall.

 

[gospidersgo]

Also interesting that our toughest OOC schedule in years (and not really even close) came this year. Not sure if it was by design or by chance.

We played a lot of teams in the 50-150 range and almost no truly bad teams. I actually really like that scheduling philosophy, just have to go win some games though.

 

[urmite]

How many this year were the first year of a home & home?

 

[SpiderFan]

If the facilities and administration is such a problem at UR then why has Mooney been here for the last 13 years? Other than he hasn't been offered a job somewhere else since 2012.

 

[MrTbone]

If the facilities and administration is such a problem at UR then why has Mooney been here for the last 13 years? Other than he hasn't been offered a job somewhere else since 2012.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking why he would stay when we have poor facilities and admin? I think the answer to that is, he's getting paid handsomely and hasn't been at much risk to lose his job. Why leave under those conditions.

 

[UR80sfan]

Many of us have different views on what the expectations are for our basketball program. Unfortunately, I am not sure the president of the University shares those views and ultimately his opinion matters most.

Some people have commented that we should potentially play in a lower quality conference in order to increase our probability of making the NCAA. I personally don't like that idea. Getting a 12th to 16th seed and being viewed as a giant killer means you have a sub-par basketball program that is not expected to win and when you do win it was because you were lucky, not because you were the better team. This is how we were viewed before joining the A10.

I personally would like us to play in the highest rated conference possible and to play the hardest OOC schedule. Ultimately, I care most about our RPI (or other similar ranking). I would rather have a 45 RPI and make the NIT than a 150 RPI and be a 14th seed in the NCAA. Don't get me wrong, I do want to make the NCAA, but believe a high RPI ranking will lead to many NCAA appearances where we are viewed as a top program and not just a Cinderella team.

 

[64Spider]

Our benchmark was set in 1988 and it consisted of the following:
# Compiled 26 wins
# Won two regular season tournaments. The Kactus Klassic and the Times Dispatch tournament.
# Reached post season play for the 5th time in seven years.
# Captured the CAA regular season and tournament championships.
# Defeated seven NCAA or NIT tournament teams.
# Posted 20 wins or better for 4th time in 5 years.
# Had a 11-2 record on our home floor.
# Reached the "Sweet Sixteen" in the NCAA Tournament.
# Led the league in attendance for the third consecutive year with 6579 fans per game.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Some people have commented that we should potentially play in a lower quality conference in order to increase our probability of making the NCAA. I personally don't like that idea.

.

People were making that comment as a hypothetical argument against people who were saying that OOC play should just prepare us for conference play and that only conference play matters. If that were the case then(hypothetically) why not join the Horizon league where we can better compete for automatic qualifier. The point was that those posters were not advocating going to a lower conference, but rather highlighting the fact that conference performance should not be the only marker for success.

No one - from the fans, athletic department, and President - wants us to move to a lower conference and that will never happen. The goal has and always will be to compete among the best in our conference and other comparable teams by winning the tournament or making NCAA as an at-large bid. Again, no one expects us to beat the Duke's or Kentucky's of this world. However, we don't need to beat these teams to receive an at-large bid. Had we gone 10-2 or 11-1 in our OOC last year (losing only to Cincinnati and either Wake/BC/Georgetown) we would be in a very good spot for an at-large bid going into conference play.

I am in the belief that conference and OOC are very much in balance with one another. By being in a strong conference a team has more margin of error in conference play but that requires a stronger OOC performance. Conversely, being in a weak conference requires no margin of error in conference play because only the tournament champion gets a bid. Case and point, that is why the 8th place team in ACC is always considered for an at-large bid because the conference has such a strong reputation. It is also why Vermont, which had a stellar OOC record this past year, missed the tournament because they did not win their tournament championship in the American East.

We are in a wonderful conference that is closer to the P5's of the world than the Horizon and American East's of this world. Basically the last few years, we have had a below average/terrible OOC record and an average/slightly above average conference record. To be considered at large in A10, we have to go at worst 9-3 in OOC beating 2-3 solid teams (not like Duke but like Bucknell, Georgetown, Vermont, Wake, etc.) and at least 14-4 during conference regular season. This is very achievable and a realistic expectation. Some posters are frustrated because rather than having a universal acknowledgement that this should be the standard for Spider basketball, other posters are making excuses and trying to justify our poor results over the years as a way of not making any change for this program

 

[LongTimeSpiderFan]

Our benchmark was set in 1988 and it consisted of the following:
# Compiled 26 wins
# Won two regular season tournaments. The Kactus Klassic and the Times Dispatch tournament.
# Reached post season play for the 5th time in seven years.
# Captured the CAA regular season and tournament championships.
# Defeated seven NCAA or NIT tournament teams.
# Posted 20 wins or better for 4th time in 5 years.
# Had a 11-2 record on our home floor.
# Reached the "Sweet Sixteen" in the NCAA Tournament.
# Led the league in attendance for the third consecutive year with 6579 fans per game.

I agree mostly with 80s fan... All about final RPI to me...all that other stuff will fall into place if our RPI improves

 

[SpiderDaMan]

Our benchmark was set in 1988 and it consisted of the following:
# Compiled 26 wins
# Won two regular season tournaments. The Kactus Klassic and the Times Dispatch tournament.
# Reached post season play for the 5th time in seven years.
# Captured the CAA regular season and tournament championships.
# Defeated seven NCAA or NIT tournament teams.
# Posted 20 wins or better for 4th time in 5 years.
# Had a 11-2 record on our home floor.
# Reached the "Sweet Sixteen" in the NCAA Tournament.
# Led the league in attendance for the third consecutive year with 6579 fans per game.

I remember...bummed. Don't see a way back to this. The ultimate dream for a Spider fan in my Sr. year...not much since. Hoping and waiting for that lightning in a bottle. Was big time fun. Barkley eat this!

 

[plydogg]

I've read too many of these positive posts on here today by idiots like Pllydog. Some of the stuff you guys believe is moronic.

I was there, not 40 feet away, when Jesse Pistokache yelled "F*** her right in the p****". Had he not been a basketball player I believe he would have gotten hit. Hard. There was a huge public outcry against him on the campus. This is the only thing I've posted about today and I can get at least half a dozen people who witnessed it with me to verify that fact.

Well I've been taking a little break from this board recently as I had a very busy past week at school.

The fighting on the board has been very minimal the past week compared to usual. Now we know why. Lots of people on here disagree, but we keep it civil. You come in here guns blazing without taking a moment to think before you type.

 

[UR80sfan]

Well I've been taking a little break from this board recently as I had a very busy past week at school. I've read too many of these positive posts on here today by idiots like Pllydog and the other VT. I honestly think you guys were planted here by someone from the athletic department to try and save face for Mooney and to qeull the negativity. Would t surprise me one bit. Some of the stuff you guys believe is moronic. VT you keep getting asked about what realistic expectations you have for the team as far as wins and losses and you never come up with a number or anything. Why? Because you have that same stupid mindset that way too many people at UR have which is being just competitive is fine. Results matter my dude, no one cares if you're just competitive.

It makes the forum much more productive if people stay on subject. You should start a new threads if you would like to communicate a new message.

 

[fan2011]

So I move onto .......

1. What conference does the team play in?

Forget the BE promotion, even if occurred, Spiders probably be the filler in team for the conference like DePaul and never reach the NCAA tourney.

I go back to when mentioning Gonzaga's rise to power and how UR could become the East version without a conference upgrade. TOUGH OOC SCHEDULING. The West Coast Conf of course was weak way back just like now excluding the Zags and St Mary's.

Some OOC numbers from when Mark Few took over the program in 1999. How many opponents were from 1. Power 5/6 conferences and 2. (number of OOC games).

1999 6 (15) Plus played #1 Cincy and #19 Temple
2000 3 (12)
2001 4 (13)
2002 7 (14)
2003 7 (14)
2004 6 (12)
2005 6 (13)
2006 8 (14) Plus played a Caliperi #4 Memphis team
2007 8 (14) Plus played a Caliperi #4 Memphis team (no typo error)
2008 8 (17) Plus played #8 Memphis
2009 8 (16) Plus played #1 Memphis
2010 8 (14) Plus played #14 Memphis
2011 9 (15)
2012 8 (16)
2013 4 (12)
2014 5 (12)
2015 6 (11) Plus #18 UConn and #16 SMU
2016 5 (12)
2017 6 (13)

As shown, seems it took an ambitious Few a few years to get the OOC schedule where he wanted it, STRONG. And seems looking at last 4-5 seasons, the Zags are in a position to call more shots of who to play without over doing it with P5/6 schools.

OK, so CM has possibly little say in getting admissions to lower academic standards, but he can't tell/demand the AD to schedule better competition? CM, where's your ambition to get the Spiders to the next level? I understand, no need when you have a cushy job with no pressure from above to do better.

And finally CM's 13 years at UR OOC rank averages at #169 while compared Gonzaga's #51 rank.

I don't think that playing a tough OOC schedule is what has made Gonzaga successful per se. We had a top 25 OOC schedule this year, didn't seem to help. There are schools that have top 25 OOC schedules year in and year out that have never made the NCAAs ever. There are teams whose OOC is 150+ every year who routinely make the tournament. Playing a tough OOC schedule is not what made Gonzaga good under Few, recruiting is. Gonzaga has sent 18 players to the NBA under Few, he has had NBA talent on his roster every year since his first year at Gonzaga. Playing a tough OOC has nothing to do with why Gonzaga is what they are today, it is simple what needs to be done for at large / seeding purposes when the conference you are in is terrible.

 

[whampas]

Do you seriously think that playing a tough OOC schedule is what has made Gonzaga successful? We had a top 25 OOC schedule this year, didn't seem to help. There are schools that have top 25 OOC schedules year in and year out that have never made the NCAAs ever. There are teams whose OOC is 150+ every year who routinely make the tournament. Playing a tough OOC schedule is not what made Gonzaga good under Few, recruiting is. Gonzaga has sent 18 players to the NBA under Few, he has had NBA talent on his roster every year since his first year at Gonzaga. Recruiting talent is what has made Gonzaga what it is. Playing a tough OOC has nothing to do with why Gonzaga is what they are today, it is simple what needs to be done for at large / seeding purposes when the conference you are in is terrible.

Maybe he doesn't attract NBA talent to Spokane if they only played the Little Sisters of the Poor and St. Marys.

 

[fan2011]

Maybe he doesn't attract NBA talent to Spokane if they only played the Little Sisters of the Poor and St. Marys.

Maybe? I could speculate a ton of reasons why Few attracts NBA talent, doesn't seem like a good way to construct an argument to me. It also doesn't seem like Richmond playing a top 25 schedule every year would help at all in attracting NBA talent. It certainly didn't this past year. The original post was suggesting playing a tough OOC every year was the key to building Richmond into a top program, which seems pretty suspect. Few is a good recruiter, he has been since day 1, that is why they are successful. If Richmond had an NBA player on the roster every year we would be making the tournament much more often.

 

[urfan1]

Maybe he doesn't attract NBA talent to Spokane if they only played the Little Sisters of the Poor and St. Marys.

so was he able to get the big boys to come to his place in the beginning? how did he do that?

 

[97spiderfan]

The benchmark we use is never defined by our leadership and always at least 2 years away from the Truther group. So, now we are going to be great in 2020. Except, we will probably lose another couple guys after a bad 2019 season, sign some inferior players to those guys and then we will reset the bar to 2021. Rinse and repeat. Been this way since 2011.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I don't think that playing a tough OOC schedule is what has made Gonzaga successful per se. We had a top 25 OOC schedule this year, didn't seem to help. There are schools that have top 25 OOC schedules year in and year out that have never made the NCAAs ever. There are teams whose OOC is 150+ every year who routinely make the tournament. Playing a tough OOC schedule is not what made Gonzaga good under Few, recruiting is. Gonzaga has sent 18 players to the NBA under Few, he has had NBA talent on his roster every year since his first year at Gonzaga. Playing a tough OOC has nothing to do with why Gonzaga is what they are today, it is simple what needs to be done for at large / seeding purposes when the conference you are in is terrible.

[/selfban] You know, I didn't believe our OOC schedule was that tough, but it was indeed top 25 in a couple of ranking systems. I believed you, fan2011, it just didn't seem right. Empirically, it doesn't seem to make sense - we played only 2 tourney teams, and played lower-tier ACC (WF/BC), BE (GTown) and even CAA teams (JMU,UD). I guess I was surprised we had 5 "Quad 1 or 2" OOC games (all losses). Meanwhile, our crosstown rival had a "weaker" OOC schedule which included Virginia, Michigan, Texas, Marquette, and Seton Hall, plus some of our tougher opponents in common (Bucknell, ODU).

Totally agree that OOC SOS in a vacuum doesn't make help us succeed. Personally, I'd prefer we keep scheduling tough, because beating up on a "Georgetown schedule" isn't going to do us any favors, either.

Here's our "team sheet" for the past season:
Quad 1, 1-4, 0-1 OOC
Quad 2, 2-4, 0-4
Quad 3, 3-8, 1-3
Quad 4, 6-4, 1-2

Frankly, the strength of the OOC schedule is pretty irrelevant if you're getting your doors blown off at home by the lesser teams on your OOC slate.
[selfban]