UR getting D1 mens lacrosse?
- Thread starter GKiller
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FCS football is allowed 63. I'm not sure how many we're at. One would think we're at our max. I'm not sure why we were at 59 as recently as Clawson.
Given the numbers involved with lax and the fact that we're not going to increase our budget any, I assume we're going to take away scholarships from more than just one sport (take away tennis and golf, and you only get 3 scholarships for example). The other piece to this is that you'll have additional travel/recruiting/equipment expenses. If we don't increase the budget to accommodate this, then I'm assuming we're reducing our budget for other sports as well.
Given the numbers involved with lax and the fact that we're not going to increase our budget any, I assume we're going to take away scholarships from more than just one sport (take away tennis and golf, and you only get 3 scholarships for example). The other piece to this is that you'll have additional travel/recruiting/equipment expenses. If we don't increase the budget to accommodate this, then I'm assuming we're reducing our budget for other sports as well.
is there really any easy way to ax scholies? NO. someone gets hurt or their feelings hurt, no way to avoid that. look what umwcah went through and may still be going thru from their cuts a few years back. if you wish to be or attempt to be in compliance, you have to make tough decisions like in any business or in govt.
S-man. I was told by two coaches in very unrelated sports that coeds were being asked to join teams and offered partial scholies to sit on the bench.
Web, I am glad to see the offerings in womens sports. Have a d myself who was able to participate in a sport on a hs level that but for the enhanced emphasis on womens sports would not have happened. Yes there are all sorts of unintended consequences as it is a Fed mandate, one of your most favorite things in the world. My continued inquiry is since the Title IX imposition, has there been an increase in donations from women? My theory being that most people give back to what they enjoy so that the pie should be bigger and have less overall cuts (and dont be giving me that glass ceiling excuse). If not why not?
Spoke with a GMU fellow this week and asked when/if GMU would start football. He didnt think they would and said he didnt think they were Title IX compliant at this time so FB would make it worse.
Midlotrader, yes there is an increased interest in Lacrosse in the Richmond area (my b-in-law had a very good hs Shock team about 5 years ago a few of whom played for the i64w club team) but I dont think you will see these kids at Richmond based on the current attempt at geographical variety.
So if we get D1 mens lacrosse what current mens sport(s) go down?
Web, I am glad to see the offerings in womens sports. Have a d myself who was able to participate in a sport on a hs level that but for the enhanced emphasis on womens sports would not have happened. Yes there are all sorts of unintended consequences as it is a Fed mandate, one of your most favorite things in the world. My continued inquiry is since the Title IX imposition, has there been an increase in donations from women? My theory being that most people give back to what they enjoy so that the pie should be bigger and have less overall cuts (and dont be giving me that glass ceiling excuse). If not why not?
Spoke with a GMU fellow this week and asked when/if GMU would start football. He didnt think they would and said he didnt think they were Title IX compliant at this time so FB would make it worse.
Midlotrader, yes there is an increased interest in Lacrosse in the Richmond area (my b-in-law had a very good hs Shock team about 5 years ago a few of whom played for the i64w club team) but I dont think you will see these kids at Richmond based on the current attempt at geographical variety.
So if we get D1 mens lacrosse what current mens sport(s) go down?
If I had to guess--and this is just my opinion mind you--that Men's tennis would be gone. After the investment and minimal schollies in men's golf that won't be eliminated. Certainly not baseball and shouldn't be soccer either with bringing on Coach Peay and the team starting to move back in a positive direction. That would be my guess if something is eliminated instead of adding something for women. But yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't just make crew for women varsity and go that route...
Assuming we're going to make a push with a reasonable number of scholarships for lax, soccer is the only option for cutting. It's the only men's sport outside of hoops/football/baseball that has any substantial number of schollies to give.
It has to be soccer, considering the scholarships and number of participants. Men's tennis doesn't have enough scholarships to make a dent in the Title 9 scholarship or participation requirements. Soccer would.
Is it possible that a very large Spider Club donation is going to be made that would fund both Lax and a women's program?
Is it possible that a very large Spider Club donation is going to be made that would fund both Lax and a women's program?
I agree it would have to be soccer. Therefore I do not think it will happen. If we were starting up a Athletic program from scratch, of course you include LAX, but to have to cut a sport we currently have in order to add it... I just do not see it happening. Also wouldn't cutting soccer really piss off the Ukrops?
Both scholies and numbers are the issue. To defend the instituiton you have to meet one of the three prongs below. The easiest (and most certain) is the substantially proportionate test (#1), thus the one most institutions try to meet.
Three-prong test
HEW's 1979 Policy Interpretation articulated three ways compliance with Title IX can be achieved. This became known as the "three-part test" for compliance. A recipient of federal funds can demonstrate compliance with Title IX by meeting any one of the three prongs.[18]
"all such assistance should be available on a substantially proportional basis to the number of male and female participants in the institution's athletic program."
"male and female athletes should receive equivalent treatment, benefits, and opportunities" regarding facilities.
"the athletic interests and abilities of male and female students must be equally effectively accommodated."[19][20]
"institutions must provide both the opportunity for individuals of each sex to participate in intercollegiate competition, and for athletes of each sex to have competitive team schedules which equally reflect their abilities." Compliance can be assessed in any one of three ways:[18]
1.Providing athletic participation opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment. This prong of the test is satisfied when participation opportunities for men and women are "substantially proportionate" to their respective undergraduate enrollment.
2.Demonstrating a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution has a history and continuing practice of program expansion that is responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex (typically female).
3.Accommodating the interest and ability of underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution is meeting the interests and abilities of its female students even where there are disproportionately fewer females than males participating in sports.
Here is all Titile IX says: Title IX is a portion of the Education Amendments of 1972, U.S. legislation also identified using the name of its principal author as the Patsy T. Mink Equal Opportunity in Education Act. It states that
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance...
?United States Code Section 20
I would like to hear the thoughts of others, but I've always thought the best way to attack Title IX would be to challenge the proportionality of traditionally female activiites, eg cheerleading, dance, theater, etc. If you can show that some things should be exempt you may obtain relief.
Three-prong test
HEW's 1979 Policy Interpretation articulated three ways compliance with Title IX can be achieved. This became known as the "three-part test" for compliance. A recipient of federal funds can demonstrate compliance with Title IX by meeting any one of the three prongs.[18]
"all such assistance should be available on a substantially proportional basis to the number of male and female participants in the institution's athletic program."
"male and female athletes should receive equivalent treatment, benefits, and opportunities" regarding facilities.
"the athletic interests and abilities of male and female students must be equally effectively accommodated."[19][20]
"institutions must provide both the opportunity for individuals of each sex to participate in intercollegiate competition, and for athletes of each sex to have competitive team schedules which equally reflect their abilities." Compliance can be assessed in any one of three ways:[18]
1.Providing athletic participation opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment. This prong of the test is satisfied when participation opportunities for men and women are "substantially proportionate" to their respective undergraduate enrollment.
2.Demonstrating a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution has a history and continuing practice of program expansion that is responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex (typically female).
3.Accommodating the interest and ability of underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution is meeting the interests and abilities of its female students even where there are disproportionately fewer females than males participating in sports.
Here is all Titile IX says: Title IX is a portion of the Education Amendments of 1972, U.S. legislation also identified using the name of its principal author as the Patsy T. Mink Equal Opportunity in Education Act. It states that
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance...
?United States Code Section 20
I would like to hear the thoughts of others, but I've always thought the best way to attack Title IX would be to challenge the proportionality of traditionally female activiites, eg cheerleading, dance, theater, etc. If you can show that some things should be exempt you may obtain relief.
the prob is everyone is afraid to attack it because it makes one seem against women. even if you are not, the perception is, YOU ARE. look at the women deal going on right now in the presidential situation. one side trying to make the other as hating women and though assinine, it does get traction. also, schools are afraid of taking on the govt and spending money, probably lots of money, to get kicked in the teeth. maybe if the schools got together and did a class action, could be doable. just need some fine tuning. same old story with our govt, good intentions but terrible outcome.
Like I said, just add a few schollies to existing women's sports and add women's rowing and your problem is solved--I can't imagine with all the endowment and money this school is bringing in that it couldn't afford to take the "easier" path so nobody gets pissed off.
And the other thing about the soccer speculation is that if they really thought this was a real possibility wouldn't they have not really had a recruiting class and all that stuff? I know you don't want to tip your hand but if it was even being talked about I would think that would have to be taken into account for the guys on the team and prospective guys coming in next year.
And the other thing about the soccer speculation is that if they really thought this was a real possibility wouldn't they have not really had a recruiting class and all that stuff? I know you don't want to tip your hand but if it was even being talked about I would think that would have to be taken into account for the guys on the team and prospective guys coming in next year.
I think that if they do promote lax, we'll get a pretty sizable gift to go along with it to cover the additional costs. The problem with that thought though is that each scholarship costs ~$1,000,000. Really it would cost ~$2,000,000 because of IX.
It appears JOC puts a period on the conversation.... for now.
John O'Connor @RTDjohnoconnor Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
UR men's lacrosse will remain club sport. School continues to examine the possibility of Division I status. Seems like a perfect fit.
John O'Connor @RTDjohnoconnor Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
UR men's lacrosse will remain club sport. School continues to examine the possibility of Division I status. Seems like a perfect fit.
URFan1, to me it seems the 1st test is the the worst. Proportionate to student population? we, like most schools, have more women than men. we're not going to offer 55% of opportunities to women though. you can't when you have a football team. otherwise you offer very few opportunities to non-football playing men.
I say you can't argue against UR meeting prongs 2 and 3 even if we were to add LAX without adding anything to the women's side. For a 3,000 student school, women have a lot of athletic opportunities and a lot of athletic scholarships.
I say you can't argue against UR meeting prongs 2 and 3 even if we were to add LAX without adding anything to the women's side. For a 3,000 student school, women have a lot of athletic opportunities and a lot of athletic scholarships.
it's very easy to rationalize. You do it by applying the forgotten wisdom of common sense. There is no women's sport that requires the same number of scholarships as football, none that attracts the interest of football, none that creates the donations that football does, and none that produces the revenue of football. Football is also very expensive, but at most schools it's what makes the world go 'round. I have a daughter so I'm thankful, but the fact is women's sports are charity at 99.99% of schools.
Announced today that it will remain a club sport for the time being.
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/sports/sport/2012/apr/20/ur-will-not-elevate-mens-lacrosse-division-i-time-ar-1858044/
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/sports/sport/2012/apr/20/ur-will-not-elevate-mens-lacrosse-division-i-time-ar-1858044/
